Keep tank out of pvp!!!

[iceyheart]

ok im getting a little sick of keyturners still being able to stand there and win a fight on the battlegrounds. i mean i was in some pritty decent brackets in arena for WoW before my leave (3900AP) i dont think bioware really understands how tanks work. there damage is not the best BUT its is not bad. i mean a jug vs a merauder is not a big difference except the jug with outlast the merauder and do about the same dmg (a little less given). all im saying is im seeing EVERYONE making juggernauts for pvp. im not saying lets nerd the tanks. im just saying lets buff the dmg of everyone else. there should be some tie's to what skill specialization you pick (meaning if you pick a tank spec you would have big base drop in you Str or Aim or w/e you use for dmg.

 

p.s. im not a great writer so im sure some will make fun but i hope i got my point across. =p let me know you're thoughts on this topic.

Edited January 29, 2012 by Ellvaan
Inappropriate Content (Pm'd, non malicious use of "retard")

[Kelticfury]

This isn't WoW. You actually have to vary which skills you use.

I think being "good" at WoW is actually a detriment to being good in swtor.

[JingleHell]

ok im getting a little sick of keyturners still being able to stand there and win a fight on the battlegrounds. i mean i was in some pritty decent brackets in arena for WoW before my leave (3900AP) i dont think bioware really understands how tanks work. there damage is not the best BUT its is not bad. i mean a jug vs a merauder is not a big difference except the jug with outlast the merauder and do about the same dmg (a little less given). all im saying is im seeing EVERYONE making juggernauts for pvp. im not saying lets nerd the tanks. im just saying lets buff the dmg of everyone else. there should be some tie's to what skill specialization you pick (meaning if you pick a tank spec you would have big base drop in you Str or Aim or w/e you use for dmg.

 

p.s. im not a great writer so im sure some will make fun but i hope i got my point across. =p let me know you're thoughts on this topic.

 

Uhm, there kind of is a huge swing in stats from DPS gear to tank gear. Try looking at it.

 

Different tank classes have different utility besides guard, but for the Guardian, it's in control. You can isolate characters REALLY well if you use your abilities properly. A tank shadow will do more damage than my guardian. Not sure what a Vanguard does, but that's mostly because I don't run with any tank specced vanguards.

 

Just for the record, tanks hit like girls. Tank+Healer vs Tank+Healer in PvP looks like a pillow fight at a rave right now.

Edited January 29, 2012 by Ellvaan
Inappropriate content + replies (Pm'd)

[JackNimbyl]

Coming from a jugg immortal spec....we are not OP. Far from it actually. I can't sit there and take damage all day. The only way tanks are unstoppable is if they have healers on them/be geared. Still taking a tank down in these circumstances is still viable and it would still take me a long time to take anyone down with my damage output. Not to mention the wide array of CC abilities other classes have, they can just keep me stunned and hit knockbacks all day.

 

Heres how it goes for jugg tank/dps:

 

Run up to target, stun, get in one attack, knockback, saving my force jump CD so I leap back, 1 attack, slowed, get kitted with ranged lays it on me, dead. (keep in mind they are putting damage on you this whole time).

 

I still have tank gear but switched to rage spec, that way I can at least put DoT on opponents (force crush) before I get CCed.

 

1 v 1, I don't think I can beat Shadows as immortal spec. Maybe as rage with the burst damage. I tried in world pvp and it was 50 v 50. The dude just kept me stunned and put the hurt on me.

 

That being said, while melee tanks/dps are disadvantaged it does not mean we are helpless. Whether juggs will be buffed or not, I can still remain competitive in warzones.

Edited January 29, 2012 by JackNimbyl

[doctorfirepants]

As a marauder I have never seen a jugg at any spec come close to matching me in dps. They serve their purpose in pvp as they do in pve.

[Amp_]

It's entirely possible they're not in the tank tree and instead are in the dps tree. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case due to the limited effectiveness of shield mechanics in pvp.

 

You can also get a lot of the perks of being a tank just by being in the stance and not needing to actually spec for it.

 

Then again, it sounds like you're a Marauder, so if you are fighting a tank and using primarily weapon damage then you might be in for an uphill climb.

[kronomandar]

in 1v1 situations...

tank beats dps, heals beat tank, dps beat heals...in general.

 

cant really apply this to every player you meet in SWTOR, because many classes have tank/heals/dps options.

 

one juggy might be a tank, specced into immortal, another might be dps, specced into rage. the difference between the two both in survivability and damage is enormous.

 

none of this applies in real pvp, as it is rarely 1v1

 

wow pvp doesnt count as real pvp, because...well...its wow. its like comparing kids playing with water pistols to cops having a shootout with bank robbers. grats on having a big water pistol i guess.

[Lokai]

ok im getting a little sick of keyturners still being able to stand there and win a fight on the battlegrounds. i mean i was in some pritty decent brackets in arena for WoW before my leave (3900AP) i dont think bioware really understands how tanks work. there damage is not the best BUT its is not bad. i mean a jug vs a merauder is not a big difference except the jug with outlast the merauder and do about the same dmg (a little less given). all im saying is im seeing EVERYONE making juggernauts for pvp. im not saying lets nerd the tanks. im just saying lets buff the dmg of everyone else. there should be some tie's to what skill specialization you pick (meaning if you pick a tank spec you would have big base drop in you Str or Aim or w/e you use for dmg.

 

p.s. im not a great writer so im sure some will make fun but i hope i got my point across. =p let me know you're thoughts on this topic.

 

OH yes lets put in WoW tanks were useless and had to spec dps to do anything in pvp...how about NO! tanks are there to TANK don't have to be fast or do alot of damage! If your raging because cant kill them then GOOD they are doing there job then =3!

 

thank goodness bioware realized that WAR design for tanks was good! and worked with it!

Edited January 29, 2012 by Ellvaan
Inappropriate content + replies (Pm'd)

[JediGerad]

I have two things to contribute to this topic:

 

1) If you left WoW, why are you wanting to have this game become more like it?

 

2) As a Infiltration Shadow, I have no problems taking down a tank 1v1. It takes longer than usual which is expected because they are tanks. But I've almost never lost to a tank 1v1. What usually happens is a tank engages me, or vice-versa, and the fight continues until he/she gets backup. At which point if I'm still solo I die. That's how it should be.

 

Juggs are fine. Guardians are fine. Well I don't know if they're fine, but they certainly are not OP.

[JingleHell]

I have two things to contribute to this topic:

 

1) If you left WoW, why are you wanting to have this game become more like it?

 

2) As a Infiltration Shadow, I have no problems taking down a tank 1v1. It takes longer than usual which is expected because they are tanks. But I've almost never lost to a tank 1v1. What usually happens is a tank engages me, or vice-versa, and the fight continues until he/she gets backup. At which point if I'm still solo I die. That's how it should be.

 

Juggs are fine. Guardians are fine. Well I don't know if they're fine, but they certainly are not OP.

 

Yeah, I'll frequently be the one guy watching the door that isn't being zerged in Void, since I can blow CD's, and throw CC around as a delaying tactic for the 5 seconds it takes a guildy or two to break free and show up, if they need to.

 

Although a lot of stealthies don't stick around long if I don't let them plant.

[iceyheart]

This isn't WoW. You actually have to vary which skills you use.

I think being "good" at WoW is actually a detriment to being good in swtor.

 

i dont know about that. anyone wknows yes you have a order you should use for what you are doing pvp or pve. but its not as situational as WoW =p

[iceyheart]

Uhm, there kind of is a huge swing in stats from DPS gear to tank gear. Try looking at it.

 

Different tank classes have different utility besides guard, but for the Guardian, it's in control. You can isolate characters REALLY well if you use your abilities properly. A tank shadow will do more damage than my guardian. Not sure what a Vanguard does, but that's mostly because I don't run with any tank specced vanguards.

 

Just for the record, tanks hit like girls. Tank+Healer vs Tank+Healer in PvP looks like a pillow fight at a rave right now.

 

yeah but most tanks dont use the tank gear they just use pure pvp dps gear, with a shield to give them an extra edge with there armor =p

[JingleHell]

i dont know about that. anyone wknows yes you have a order you should use for what you are doing pvp or pve. but its not as situational as WoW =p

 

Uhm, it's very situational, especially in PvP. Multiple healers have to be isolated or they'll never die, focus target varies based on gear and skill, ideal ability usage varies based on target spec. At least for a Guardian.

 

I have so many tools available that the proper use for them varies on a TON of factors.

 

yeah but most tanks dont use the tank gear they just use pure pvp dps gear, with a shield to give them an extra edge with there armor =p

 

That's probably why I wreck so many, they still hit like girls and they have less survivability than me.

Edited January 29, 2012 by JingleHell

[iceyheart]

OH yes lets put in WoW tanks were useless and had to spec dps to do anything in pvp...how about NO! tanks are there to TANK don't have to be fast or do alot of damage! If your raging because cant kill them then GOOD they are doing there job then =3!

 

thank goodness bioware realized that WAR design for tanks was good! and worked with it!

 

yeah but i play a BH tank in pvp and once we capture a nod we never lose it cuz i just sit on it all day and no one can do anything its not very fun. im saying all this after seeing both standpoints from dps and tank. =p

[BanzaiChigau]

Errr, tanks in this game are not OP at all as said already by many others, what kind of tanks are you talking about exatly? xD. I play a guardian tank and i don't feel any better than any other class/spec combo, my roles inside a WZ are clear and eventhough i can't outdamage damage dealers i can still support my teammates with some nice extra damage, not the greatest but certainly not poor if played properly.

 

And be aware of this, playing a tank in PvP is not easy to new players and they're not going to be very useful with them unless they understand basic stuff like switching guards to players who are being focused or choose when to do certain type of crowd control or when to save it for other moment, to name a few among many.

 

If played properly it's a very stressful job, nothing overpowered IMHO, an overpowered "anything" is usually something quite easy and simple to use which yields powerful results with minimal effort, tanks in this game are the opposite of that TBH, specially when doing PvP.

 

Besides, in this game 2 of the most important damage sources, tech and force, can't be avoided by defense mechanics as seen and explained by several people across these forums and the game itself, so i don't see how that could make a tank OP in this game. If we could deflect and parry every cast and spell from a sorcerer or bounty hunter then maybe we could be called OP machines of doom, or so, but for now we're just a little bit more durable than a well geared DPS who knows how to use his survival CDs. If you ask good PvP players about how tanks feel in this game they will tell you exactly this...tanks in this game feel a little less resilient than they do in other games and for now that's ok at least for me, if played properly tanks are useful, just like healers and damage dealers.

 

And if you remove tanks from PvP prepare to notice a huge unbalance on almost everything, it's already bad when i join a WZ and i'm the only person guarding others, if you have good tanks healers will have some breathing room there now and then, you can't just remove a key component of the game simply because you believe all the "noobs" are trying to play tanks thinking they're OP, maybe they're just playing them because they represent the most iconic characters from the movies and the whole SW universe, which is logical since this is a video game and they want to have fun.

Edited January 29, 2012 by BanzaiChigau

[Chaqa]

Keeping tanks out of pvp is insane!!

 

My main is a tank and I will admit my dps is in the toilet, however I can sit and guard a door and turret and handle 3-4 people beating on me and still not allow the turret/door to be taken while waiting for the cavalry to arrive and I am happy with that job.

 

Now if someone rolled a tank class early on and discovered it wasnt their cup of tea and found a way to squeeze a little more dps out at the cost of lossing some absorption/defense that is their business. There is no way to switch your specialization, so stop the QQ and learn to play your class or just run away when you see a Tank infront of the door.

[Kelticfury]

but its not as situational as WoW =p

 

Ok this is just funny.

 

Come back and re-read this once you have learned to play

[rzrknight]

ok im getting a little sick of keyturners still being able to stand there and win a fight on the battlegrounds. i mean i was in some pritty decent brackets in arena for WoW before my leave (3900AP) i dont think bioware really understands how tanks work. there damage is not the best BUT its is not bad. i mean a jug vs a merauder is not a big difference except the jug with outlast the merauder and do about the same dmg (a little less given). all im saying is im seeing EVERYONE making juggernauts for pvp. im not saying lets nerd the tanks. im just saying lets buff the dmg of everyone else. there should be some tie's to what skill specialization you pick (meaning if you pick a tank spec you would have big base drop in you Str or Aim or w/e you use for dmg.

 

p.s. im not a great writer so im sure some will make fun but i hope i got my point across. =p let me know you're thoughts on this topic.

 

No , tanks in PvP give +- dmg , not even close to a dps to begin with.

Unless you mean you are under geared and then yeah , a batlle master tank will kill a dps without gear. Then again that is to be expected.

[belialle]

How to deal with an "unkillable" tank in PvP:

 

1. Locate healer.

2. Pressure or kill healer.

[Kelticfury]

yeah but i play a BH tank in pvp and once we capture a nod we never lose it cuz i just sit on it all day and no one can do anything its not very fun. im saying all this after seeing both standpoints from dps and tank. =p

 

Thats odd, on my vanguard, I regularly melt powertech faces.

[Dorkfrey]

Errr, tanks in this game are not OP at all as said already by many others, what kind of tanks are you talking about exatly? xD. I play a guardian tank and i don't feel any better than any other class/spec combo, my roles inside a WZ are clear and eventhough i can't outdamage damage dealers i can still support my teammates with some nice extra damage, not the greatest but certainly not poor if played properly.

 

Give me a Pocket_Healer and a decent DD and I feel like a KING as a tank. Especially in Alderaan. It's not about the damage though, it's about the - feeling that says: "I'm the King of this Hill, and it's going to take EIGHT of you to knock me off it!" But it's never about the damage. I mean - I managed to get my first 2.5k damage medal EVER today, at level 50 - with a bunch of Champ gear on me.

 

And be aware of this, playing a tank in PvP is not easy to new players and they're not going to be very useful with them unless they understand basic stuff like switching guards to players who are being focused or choose when to do certain type of crowd control or when to save it for other moment, to name a few among many.

 

Not sure where you're going with this, tanking people isn't that dissimilar to tanking mobs, in as much as - you have to get them to HATE you far more than anyone else that's nearby. If you've gotten inside their heads in WZ's before - and have pocket_healer going on, it's like they make a beeline for you. Even when I just leave guard on my healer knowing DD's can recycle while we hold. Tanking in PvP isn't hard - you've just got to make yourself a nuisance and people will get frustrated. It's not rocket science, but it is damned fun.

 

If played properly it's a very stressful job, nothing overpowered IMHO, an overpowered "anything" is usually something quite easy and simple to use which yields powerful results with minimal effort, tanks in this game are the opposite of that TBH, specially when doing PvP.

 

Give them tanking juice then (or get them to make it themselves). That worked me for the first few years while I was tanking. Tanking juice being either tea or alcohol. To be honest, tanking is just a mindset, once you slip into it, you'll never get out of it. And it's not that hard to get into. I agree that tanking is far from overpowered though, like the gent above says: "Pillow fight at a rave". Actually - I think whichever healer did more damage would be the deciding matter here.

 

Besides, in this game 2 of the most important damage sources, tech and force, can't be avoided by defense mechanics as seen and explained by several people across these forums and the game itself, so i don't see how that could make a tank OP in this game. If we could deflect and parry every cast and spell from a sorcerer or bounty hunter then maybe we could be called OP machines of doom, or so, but for now we're just a little bit more durable than a well geared DPS who knows how to use his survival CDs. If you ask good PvP players about how tanks feel in this game they will tell you exactly this...tanks in this game feel a little less resilient than they do in other games and for now that's ok at least for me, if played properly tanks are useful, just like healers and damage dealers.

 

And if you remove tanks from PvP prepare to notice a huge unbalance on almost everything, it's already bad when i join a WZ and i'm the only person guarding others, if you have good tanks healers will have some breathing room there now and then, you can't just remove a key component of the game simply because you believe all the "noobs" are trying to play tanks thinking they're OP, maybe they're just playing them because they represent the most iconic characters from the movies and the whole SW universe, which is logical since this is a video game and they want to have fun.

 

True enough about feeling like slightly more resilient, but massively under damaging DD's. Once you get the idea of control into your head, you realise your purpose in the game, but for many - that's taking them a while. Most of the people asking me about Shadow PvP seem to be scared off by the fact that they can't burst like a Rogue in WoW. When - there's so much more to them than just simple pew pew. People are coming around though - I just wish my server had some really good plain old fashioned DD's - what would I give for a good Gunslinger/Sentinel/Trooper dps (I don't know the trooper classes well enough yet). The tank specs are becoming more popular due to the whines of the uneducated (mostly about Guard stopping people from dying in the time it's taken Y keyboard drooler to headbutt out his X damaging combo).

 

The biggest consequence of removing tanks from PvP is losing tanks from PvE - and that's been a huge problem in many games before. I agree there are a lot of "newbies" trying to play tanks after seeing it done in PvP, and mostly because of the whines of nerfed OPS crying about Guard because they can't burst down a healer in 4 seconds - so clearly - anyone who can make OPS/Scoundrel's cry so many tears of anguish must be overpowered - right? I think that's more the biggest complaint about tanks is they introduce an element of teamplay that WoW players have just never had to deal with before. Good thing too imo.

[Panzerbase]

What you did in WOW has little bearing in what you will do here, get used to the fact this is not WoW and no one cares what carebear rank you reached in that sorry game.

[Kolbenito]

ok im getting a little sick of keyturners still being able to stand there and win a fight on the battlegrounds. i mean i was in some pritty decent brackets in arena for WoW before my leave (3900AP) i dont think bioware really understands how tanks work. there damage is not the best BUT its is not bad. i mean a jug vs a merauder is not a big difference except the jug with outlast the merauder and do about the same dmg (a little less given). all im saying is im seeing EVERYONE making juggernauts for pvp. im not saying lets nerd the tanks. im just saying lets buff the dmg of everyone else. there should be some tie's to what skill specialization you pick (meaning if you pick a tank spec you would have big base drop in you Str or Aim or w/e you use for dmg.

 

p.s. im not a great writer so im sure some will make fun but i hope i got my point across. =p let me know you're thoughts on this topic.

 

Juggernaut != Tank, same with Vanguard and Powertech.

 

These are advanced classes with the ABILITY to spec to tank. That's it.

 

It is a pretty easy concept to grasp, and very similar to WoW. Warriors can either Tank, do DPS with a 2Hander or DPS with dual wielding. Juggernauts can Tank, do DPS based on saber attacks or DPS based on Smash. Same **** different game

 

Reading between the lines sounds like you went Marauder and are annoyed that you aren't doing 50% more damage than Juggernauts you see. Sounds like a personal problem?

[DarthNemis]

I disagree with the OP vehemently. I will refrain from saying what i want to say out of respect for the terms of use on the forums.