ScarletBlaze Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 (edited) And said woman could be killed tomorrow by some stray animal, rakghoul, imperial soldier or in another accident. And if she theoretically can die in a short time, it will be a waste to loose that holocrone anyway. And after rescuing it, my JC got a mail with thx. It was well worth it and some. My jedi rescued the lady as a life is always more important that a holocron that may or may not be that useful. Life to my jedi will always be more precious than any item. Edited February 21, 2015 by ScarletBlaze Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vradic Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 (edited) On Ord Mantell when you get the medicine back from the sepratists. If you give the medicine to the refugees you get light side. If you give the medicine to save the dying soldiers that the medicine was stolen from in the first place, darkside. This, a thousand times, this. I always return to the medicine to save fellow soldiers. Sure the kid was sick, but his own damned immune system can adapt and heal over time with common sense and self care. That soldier isn't going to recover from blaster/mortar fire on his own. Why this quest even has a darkside option for the end result is beyond me. I didn't bond with some damn refuge when I was in,I become brothers with the other guys in my unit/squad. Granted, all we did was sit in the barracks and talk about fast food, girls and games. Edited February 21, 2015 by Vradic Insight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarlaBlaise Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Exactly: tomorrow, NOT today. Plus, it was a life, NOT an assortment of technological ingenuity. See the difference? Honestly? Nope. It's either 1 life or millions of cured. The choice is easy for me. Still would change the choices alignment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HandOfKane Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Once again, from a retired Army guy, helping a soldier desert would NEVER be a light side choice, no matter what the circumstances. LS/DS <> Legal/Illegal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Wicked Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 (edited) Honestly? Nope. It's either 1 life or millions of cured. The choice is easy for me. Still would change the choices alignment. Issue being, as stated earlier, you truly have no way of knowing if those millions will be cured, further down the road -- especially considering what happens in Taris, once the Empire comes charging in. Such is NOT the case when saving that one life. She could die the next day, but that day, she'd live.That simple or clear-cut really. LS / DS as it is makes perfect sense. Edited February 21, 2015 by Darth_Wicked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GadgetDon Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 This, a thousand times, this. I always return to the medicine to save fellow soldiers. Sure the kid was sick, but his own damned immune system can adapt and heal over time with common sense and self care. That soldier isn't going to recover from blaster/mortar fire on his own. Why this quest even has a darkside option for the end result is beyond me. I didn't bond with some damn refuge when I was in,I become brothers with the other guys in my unit/squad. Granted, all we did was sit in the barracks and talk about fast food, girls and games. What kills me about this one is that there's no middle road. Were I given free choice, I'd say "OK, you can have half the medpacks. I'll tell the other guy that the separatists had used half of them." Or, if I want to be really noble and duddley-do-right about it, tell the other guy why you split them. You've got two groups with desperate needs of medpacks (and a lot of the refugees are recovering from blaster fire and things that common sense and self care won't cure), it's called sharing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Wicked Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 (edited) Why this quest even has a darkside option for the end result is beyond me. Because the Ord Mantell military is corrupt to the bone, just like its government, and it's debatable if those soldiers will even get the meds? Also -- plus, , you threaten a child in order to coerce the truth out of the Cathar. Edited February 21, 2015 by Darth_Wicked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aresnar Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Especially for the Trooper class. Some Darkside choices are what soldiers would normally do. Only true hugging pansy types would write in DS for bringing medical supplies back to your own troopers. That seems to me to be the main disconnect between many players and the story. As a poster above stated the Force does not care about rules of war. military conduct, laws, human/species rights etc... Remember there are a number of people in the Star Wars universe who are happily married and dare I say passionately so. Yet passion is of the Dark side...so is specific love for that matter. So in game terms all those people would earn DS points whenever they embrace their passions. Yet people *normally* go about loving their significant others...much like troopers would normally take the medicine back to their fellows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyGreggy Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 And this is why you need civilians. To remind the gung ho types what the civilisation and civilised values they're supposed to be defending (ie not trying to shape in their own image) is all about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeoftime Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Because the Ord Mantell military is corrupt to the bone, just like its government, and it's debatable if those soldiers will even get the meds? Also -- plus, , you threaten a child in order to coerce the truth out of the Cathar. Yeah :/ Even if you're willing to ignore the Ord Mantell military being corrupt to the bone, I don't understand how anyone can be surprised that doing something that involves threatening to murder a small child gives them ds points. (And heck, we don't know what the kid has -- there are sicknesses that can kill you without medical attention, especially when you're either a young child or very old :| no telling if refusing Ryzo medical help *doesn't* end up killing him...) Honestly, the system seems, for the most part, pretty consistent? Republic side ls options tend to be helping people suffering *now* (eg the woman on Taris), not unnecessarily killing people (...outside of gameplay like bonus quests of course :/ it's called gameplay and story segregation and is in nearly every game ever, I'm surprised some people here find it so confusing), and for Jedi, following the Jedi code. Empire side it seems to be avoiding unnecessary killing and doing what's best for the Empire -- like sparing that General during the Black Talon flashpoint. Seems silly to me to complain that ls doesn't equal being lawful or always having the greater good in mind. (And imo, the knight is hit a lot more with the "ds points for thinking of the greater good" issue, I'm surprised everyone just complains about that one Consular decision The JK even gets one right there on Taris as well.) One of the decisions I do wonder about is the one on Coruscant, in the senate tower, though that's more me not being entirely sure what's going on -- is Parvil keeping the whole "let's screw over the Jedi and join with the empire" motion a secret? Is he disguising it as something else to fool his fellow senators to go along with it? Page dude, if he's keeping it a secret from the public because apparently it's an unpopular idea, how is that helping the democratic process? He's not supposed to do whatever the heck he wants, he's supposed to represent the people who elected him :/ And why is there no middle option to refuse to take the agricultural reports while also leaving the parcel be? That, and the decision at the end of the Trooper story, but less because it doesn't make sense ls/ds wise (since it once again adheres to the "help people regardless of the greater good" idealistic view) and more because it makes me sad about the utter mess that is Saresh's writing. Oh Saresh, you could have been so cool if the writers had only cared... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Wicked Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 (edited) The JK even gets one right there on Taris as well. Depending on your character's alignment, you may not have access to the mission you're referring to. Plus...Their situation is a bit different so to speak. By the time the Consular gets to the area where he can save the woman or the holocrons, the former is about to plummet to her death. One of the decisions I do wonder about is the one on Coruscant, in the senate tower, though that's more me not being entirely sure what's going on -- is Parvil keeping the whole "let's screw over the Jedi and join with the empire" motion a secret? Is he disguising it as something else to fool his fellow senators to go along with it? Page dude, if he's keeping it a secret from the public because apparently it's an unpopular idea, how is that helping the democratic process? If memory serves me right, the general public wasn't aware yet of his plan, which is why the quest giver wanted to blow the whistle. At that point, Parvil was still trying to convince other senators to follow his lead. He's not supposed to do whatever the heck he wants, he's supposed to represent the people who elected him :/ That's another matter, seeing it's not crystal clear if he's on the take from the Sith Empire, or if the truly believes the Republic should sever ties with the Jedi. And why is there no middle option to refuse to take the agricultural reports while also leaving the parcel be? There is. You refuse to do the quest really, though as this one character once said:Apathy is death. - - - - That, and the decision at the end of the Trooper story, but less because it doesn't make sense ls/ds wise (since it once again adheres to the "help people regardless of the greater good" idealistic view) and more because it makes me sad about the utter mess that is Saresh's writing. Oh Saresh, you could have been so cool if the writers had only cared... I don't see the issue quite frankly.Saresh had just been elected and the Republic had retaken Corellia. As such, for the sake of good PR with her constituents, she was willing to exchange Rakton for the Republic PoW's. As stated earlier, it is unlikely the Moff's or the Dark Council would allow his blemish to go unpunished anyway. Edited February 21, 2015 by Darth_Wicked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Killjoy Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 (edited) What this thread is really hitting, without realizing it, is how ridiculous the entire LS/DS morality is in the first place, and how it's even more convoluted, self-contradicting, and detached from reality once it gets further twisted up in the competing halfwit moral codes of the Jedi and Sith. Edited February 21, 2015 by Max_Killjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeoftime Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 (edited) Depending on your character's alignment, you may not have access to the mission you're referring to. Plus...Their situation is a bit different so to speak. By the time the Consular gets to the area where he can save the woman or the holocrons, the former is about to plummet to her death. Oh, you don't? Been a while since I did Taris on a Knight, didn't remember you don't always get the choice between going directly after the doctor or saving the settlers. (And I guess it is different -- though it does have the same greated good vs saving people right now theme since it's said that stopping the Imperials from getting info from the Doctor is imperative... And IIRC Angral even uses some of it when making his planet destroying weapon, though idk if he always does or only if you were ls on Taris.) If memory serves me right, the general public wasn't aware yet of his plan, which is why the quest giver wanted to blow the whistle. At that point, Parvil was still trying to convince other senators to follow his lead. That's another matter, seeing it's not crystal clear if he's on the take from the Sith Empire, or if the truly believes the Republic should sever ties with the Jedi. There is. You refuse to do the quest really, though as this one character once said: Heh, true. Would have been nice to say "screw this I'm outta here" though when you're caught trying to steal from a senator, in hope of not making an enemy out of either faction. (Though I guess that could backfire and both hate you afterwards |D) - - - - I don't see the issue quite frankly.Saresh had just been elected and the Republic had retaken Corellia. As such, for the sake of good PR with her constituents, she was willing to exchange Rakton for the Republic PoW's. As stated earlier, it is unlikely the Moff's or the Dark Council would allow his blemish to go unpunished anyway. Maybe, but you can't tell for sure and Garza is definitely worried. And idk, it doesn't gel with the bit where apparently she's called a warmonger in the BH story and how ruthless she seems at the end of RotHC where I got the impression she wouldn't have cared about Makeb and its people if she hadn't expected gaining from helping them -- which I liked actually, because I like ruthless, pragmatic jerks in fiction. [coughs] I suppose it makes sense PR wise, but without guarantee that he'll never be a danger again? I'd rather just use something else for PR and keep the possibly still dangerous General securely locked up (....and try to get more info from him.) Edited February 21, 2015 by freeoftime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Wicked Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 (edited) Oh, you don't? Been a while since I did Taris on a Knight, didn't remember you don't always get the choice between going directly after the doctor or saving the settlers. (And I guess it is different -- though it does have the same greated good vs saving people right now theme since it's said that stopping the Imperials from getting info from the Doctor is imperative... And IIRC Angral even uses some of it when making his planet destroying weapon, though idk if he always does or only if you were ls on Taris.) I should have been clearer. If you character is DS I or above, you get this choice; if you character is LS I or above, you get , which is the one pertaining the settlers on Taris. Even so, regardless of what you do, Angral still unleashes hell on Uphrades with the Desolator, and comes close to do the same on Tython.- - - - Maybe, but you can't tell for sure and Garza is definitely worried. And idk, it doesn't gel with the bit where apparently she's called a warmonger in the BH story and how ruthless she seems at the end of RotHC where I got the impression she wouldn't have cared about Makeb and its people if she hadn't expected gaining from helping them -- which I liked actually, because I like ruthless, pragmatic jerks in fiction. [coughs] I suppose it makes sense PR wise, but without guarantee that he'll never be a danger again? I'd rather just use something else for PR and keep the possibly still dangerous General securely locked up (....and try to get more info from him.) Issue being, as mentioned earlier, those Republic PoW's probably had families and what not back home. Again, that would be fairly good publicity, especially considering the Republic was on the rise, having been successful at Corellia. Makeb is a different matter altogether. Sure the Republic has every interest in separating itself from the Sith Empire, by playing the generous and humanitarian faction and stuff, but at the end of the day, Saresh was hoping for more than a few million mouths to feed; she wanted resources, both material and manpower, to strike back at the Empire. The Makeb crisis, ultimately, provided none of that, and this ALREADY factors having the most wealthy of the Hutt Cartel members pledging themselves to support the Republic. Even so, as seen , she did find a way to spin it around to her benefit, a spin that may cost her dearly in the long-run. TL;DR: she may come across as a warmonger -- not to mention ultimately ruthless if the situation demands it -- but then again, even she values good publicity. Edited February 21, 2015 by Darth_Wicked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeoftime Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 I should have been clearer. If you character is DS I or above, you get this choice; if you character is LS I or above, you get , which is the one pertaining the settlers on Taris. Even so, regardless of what you do, Angral still unleashes hell on Uphrades with the Desolator, and comes close to do the same on Tython.- - - - Oh, I didn't know there were such differences! That's actually pretty cool Issue being, as mentioned earlier, those Republic PoW's probably had families and what not back home. Again, that would be fairly good publicity, especially considering the Republic was on the rise, having been successful at Corellia. Makeb is a different matter altogether. Sure the Republic has every interest in separating itself from the Sith Empire, by playing the generous and humanitarian faction and stuff, but at the end of the day, Saresh was hoping for more than a few million mouths to feed; she wanted resources, both material and manpower, to strike back at the Empire. The Makeb crisis, ultimately, provided none of that, and this ALREADY factors having the most wealthy of the Hutt Cartel members pledging themselves to support the Republic. Even so, as seen , she did find a way to spin it around to her benefit, a spin that may cost her dearly in the long-run. TL;DR: she may come across as a warmonger -- not to mention ultimately ruthless if the situation demands it -- but then again, even she values good publicity. Oh, like I said, I actually love how she hadnles Makeb xDI hadn't considered that Rakton may have become harmless enough that it could be worth the PR boost to trade him. Still not sure I'd make that choice myself, just out of caution (and my trooper won't anyway... he's a bit salty over Jaxo oops) but that actually... makes me appreciate her character a lot more. It read more as oddly out of character idealism to me, but this way? It's actually interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devrius Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 I have 8 characters, 4 on each faction mirrors of the other and I have to say, Troopers get politically charged light and dark side choices IMO. Of all the classes, their choices, when role played true to the character and his mission, too many come out as "Dark Side". It really feels like either the idea was to show that "War is Hell" by showing how what the real military would normally do in these situation is a necessary evil or they are straight up saying the military is evil. Other classes can be noble with their light side choices and it makes sense, troopers though are forced to either act dumb or end up mostly gray sided if you use common sense. Even the Empire classes and it actually helps their evil image (the Taris and Belsavis merciful sparing of pubs ends up being seeing as scare tactics by our superiors) Or evil, deceptive in the case of pub classes or out right in the case of imps. Troopers though? Maniacs out to kill everyone with no remorse or feelings, steals from the service, allows desertion, but is still fiercely loyal to his general and follows all her orders, wiling to prioritize friends and fellow soldiers but betrays them at the 1st chance too? To be full dark side or full light side is usually a player choice, but a trooper is forced into a state of contradiction if he does... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jovianus Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Meh, I'd disagree, all classes suffer from it to one degree or another. There are some decent, nuanced choices sprinkled throughout all the classes, but there are far more just straight up in your face, "Lol, I'm a sadistic lunatic who nobody should trust with a lemonade stand much less critical plans and decisions that affect the future of the Empire/Republic" or "What's that? Sorry, I can't hear you from way up here in my ivory tower!" type choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryand Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Either way could be argued here. This is ultimately the problem with LS / DS. People equate them with good/evil which is open to interpretation and varies from person to person and society to society. LS / DS points should be about LS / DS OF THE FORCE and I'm no expert for sure, but the should be a clear listing of what makes something LS/DS in the force somewhere and that should be what people go on, not their own morality. Was going to post this myself. The fact that DS points come with a visual indicator of your corruption means that it's all intended to be about the dark side of the force from a lore perspective. All LS/DS choices in the game should therefore only involve usage of the force. Of course that means that smugglers/agents/hunters/troopers get no LS/DS meter, but so be it. You don't see any "Sith" corruption on the particularly sadistic moffs in the game. And it also shouldn't be a positive scale for LS points. Your points should only go from zero to negative, and if you go too negative, you are no longer able to make LS choices at all. Or I guess you could say that the force-using heroes are all like Mace Windu, and can use the dark side of the force without "succumbing" to it, whatever the hell that means. I'm only speaking from a lore perspective of course. I'm not saying the game would be better for doing that. But it might make a little more sense. Or maybe not, since the "dark side of the force" doesn't make much sense to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lordkoon Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Not here to debate what should or shouldn't be, I just want to hear some examples of some absurd LS/DS choices in the game. I'll go first. In "The Red Reaper" flashpoint... You get an option to let some pureblood Sith out of cryo-stasis, leave them alone, or terminate their life support. Leaving them alone to forever be trapped in cryo-stasis gets you 50 LS points. Terminating their life support gets you 100 DS points. Now here's the real insanity: Freeing and then slaughtering them (as they'just instantly aggro after being freed) gives 100 LS points. lolololololololol Have fun! Fun fact, Red Reapper is destroyed shortly after Ikoral dies so LS choice to keep them in stasis is even more ironic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordCJK Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 lol... Someone is about to turn into a zombie. They ask for you to off them. I would think killing them would be the merciful thing to do. You actually got it backwards. You get light side for killing him and dark side for something like ''ha-ha, I will watch u suffer, bad to be you''. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkelefantos Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 You actually got it backwards. You get light side for killing him and dark side for something like ''ha-ha, I will watch u suffer, bad to be you''. It's the other way around for the Republic version. Don't ask me why, how would I know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Wicked Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 It's the other way around for the Republic version. Don't ask me why, how would I know? Pretender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grayseven Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Kind of off topic, but an issue that ticks me off to no end are some of the conversation choices that you get while leveling where the choice on the convo wheel is one thing and what you actually say bears no resemblance whatsoever to what the choice was. What seems like a good choice for companion affection turns out to be the worst possible thing you could say (according to your companion). There is no logical way to compare some of the wheel choices to what you say. It's like they just threw darts at a wall of remarks and joined them together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SelinaH Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 (edited) Kind of off topic, but an issue that ticks me off to no end are some of the conversation choices that you get while leveling where the choice on the convo wheel is one thing and what you actually say bears no resemblance whatsoever to what the choice was. It would be helpful if ambiguous options were labeled with some kind of mood indicator. It's sometimes difficult to tell whether the response is intended to be serious or sarcastic, jocular or brusque. Edited February 22, 2015 by SelinaH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Wicked Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 (edited) It would be helpful if ambiguous options were labeled with some kind of mood indicator. It's sometimes difficult to tell whether the response is intended to be serious or sarcastic, jocular or brusque. You mean, similar to "[Flirt]"? Edited February 22, 2015 by Darth_Wicked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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