We canhave 160 energy if we wanted to

[Kai-Eurah-Tird]

So I was looking at the Force Mystic 4 peice set. It gives 50 energy. Granted that it has stuff like alacrity and such, but those mods can be removed and replace with crit + surge mods. How much more burst damage can an infiltration shadow do with 160 energy? (100 base + 10 from spec + 50 from 4 peice set bonus)

[oddmyth]

Don't be so sure you can get rid of those stats, each piece has base stats that cannot be removed.

[Kitru]

How much more burst damage can an infiltration shadow do with 160 energy?

 

Not appreciably much. The only ability that an Inf Shadow has that costs a large amount is non-proc Shadow Strike, which you shouldn't be using in the first place. The best 6 second burst string is FB>CS>CS>Project (opening with Spinning Kick from stealth and using Force Potency before FB to get a high crit chance with both) the entire cost of which is only 95 Force (while regenerating 48 Force; if you include Spinning Kick in the cost, it goes up to 115 Force, which you'll still have more than enough to cover even with just passive regen). The increases to Force that Shadows can get are all largely worthless as such: Inf is the only spec that could feasibly use a larger pool, and it has the cheapest attacks so it doesn't even have much use for it (since it takes longer than 10-15 seconds to even get to the point where you're out of Force thanks to passive Force regen, Profundity, and Masked Assault at which point the 10 additional Force is such a small contributor to your entire Force pool that it's pretty much worthless).

[theMeldo]

The extra force potency charge is probably worth more

[Boarg]

This is actually a pretty nice PvP option if it works. Ignoring things that boost Force regen over baseline...

 

A Shadow player typically spends ~25 Force each gcd. Rounding off, that means spending 16 force per second.

 

Baseline force regen is 8 force per second. That means, a force bar is typically depleting 8 force per second...when it runs out, a person has to start mixing in Saber Strikes.

 

How long does a Force bar last then?

 

100 F = 12.5s

 

110 F = 13.75s

 

150 F = 18.75s

 

160 F = 20.0s

 

 

Being able to all out pile on dps (never Saber Strike) in PvP for a solid 20s, even without Force regen boosts, is pretty nice. The 50 extra Force basically gives a shadow an extra 6.25s of "tank".

[Kitru]

Ignoring things that boost Force regen over baseline...

 

Which pretty much means ignoring more than a quarter of your Force regen, coupled with some *very* strong burst Force generation tools.

 

For example, when you burst as an Inf shadow, you should be doing so from stealth which means that you have a 25% increase for Force regen for the first 6 seconds thanks to Shadow's Respite, netting you an additional 24 Force for your burst phase.

 

You've also got Profundity, which means that you get 10 Force on a 10 sec CD, every time you proc Shadow Technique (which should occur once every 3 attacks as determined by the sum of (1 - .25) ^ n as n approaches infinity). So, based on a basic attack string of FB>CS>CS>Project>SS>CS>CS>Project, the average number of attacks per GCD is 1.5. So, based on this information, you get 10 Force about every 13 seconds (3 attacks / 1.5 attacks/GCD = 2 GCDs with a 10 sec ICD).

 

You've also got Masked Assault, which provides 10 Force immediately and a further 24 Force over the next 6 seconds on a 45 second CD.

 

So, for burst, ignoring anything that augments your max Force and a 13 Force/sec cost (25 Force per GCD, 12 Force regained per GCD since baseline is 8 Force/sec and a GCD is 1.5 secs), we can look at the amount of Force remaining after 12 seconds (Blackout used immediately after Shadow's Respite fades and just before Profundity is prepped to activate again), at which point it becomes "standard": 12 Force (100 - 12 * 13 + 10 + 24 + 34). You'd be able to sustain the given string for 12 seconds no problem (and a couple seconds longer as well thanks to Profundity and the passive Force regen).

 

Now, if you consider "burst" to be longer than 12 seconds, I really have to wonder how you define it. 12 seconds should be more than long enough to kill someone.

 

If you want to argue on the terms of sustained DPS (re: the only time frame where you would actually *need* the larger max Force), the benefits are even *less substantial* since we can calculate the average contribution of the given talents: Shadows Respite provides a flat 24 Force, Profundity provides .77 Force/sec (10 / 13), and Masked Assault provides .75 Force/sec (34 / 45). Combined with the 100 Force we get by default, after a 2 minute fight, an Inf Shadow without Vigor would have 1266.4 Force (100 + 120 * (8 + .75 + .77) + 24) for the duration of the fight. An additional 10 Force (from Vigor) or 50 Force (from the set bonus) would be functionally pointless (less than .8% and 3.9% additional Force). And that's just over 2 minutes, which is a pretty short fight. Over a 3 minute or 5 minute fight, the value diminishes even more.

 

All of the "additional max Force" buffs are functionally pointless. Over the short term, you're not going to burn enough Force with an effective playstyle to use that additional Force. Over the long term, since the increases to your max Force have no effect on your regeneration, the additional Force gained is so miniscule as to be functionally nonexistent, especially when weighed against human error.

[Ragonar]

I don't see where it gives 50 force?

[Kitru]

I don't see where it gives 50 force?

 

You don't see the set bonuses until you have the piece equipped. The 4 piece bonus of the PvE Force-Mystic (healer) set is the 50 additional Force.

[DaveYanakov]

On the other hand, never ever running out of force while fighting a PvE boss would seem to be quite useful as those fights tend to last longer than 20 seconds.

[PunkROC]

Kitru, your rotation for Infiltration Shadows confuses me... You should NEVER start the rotation with Force Breach. You should always start with 2x Clairvoyant Strike, these both have the possibility of building Exit Strategy stacks. Then you pop Force in Balance, Project, Force Breach, and finally Shadow Strike/Spinning Strike.

This maximizes your burst, and can (with the right consumables and such) take someone down to 30% HP of a spinning strike. This is strictly PvP of course.

Edited January 28, 2012 by PunkROC

[Kitru]

Kitru, your rotation for Infiltration Shadows confuses me... You should NEVER start the rotation with Force Breach. You should always start with 2x Clairvoyant Strike, these both have the possibility of building Exit Strategy stacks. Then you pop Force in Balance, Project, Force Breach, and finally Shadow Strike/Spinning Strike.

 

If you're focused entirely upon optimization within the limited time frame (re: as much damage as possible within the 12 seconds without paying attention to damage dealt outside of it), you would want to wait until *as late as possible* to use FB so as to generate as many Exit Strategy stacks as possible (re: you would want to wait until the *very* end). I use the given string largely because it represents a best use of your given resources assuming you care about your damage capabilities *beyond* the 12 second window, especially within the next couple of GCDs beyond the 12 second window (since you're going to get a *very* heavy hitting Force Breach thanks to the banking of Exit Strategy stacks until the end); Shadow Technique Force Breach hits *really* hard considering it's internal damage so it's a great finisher and excellent opener meaning that, if you're actively trying to kill someone, you want to get both of those in so you want to use it asap every time thanks to its CD.

 

It's a question of optimization within the arbitrary 12 second window versus optimization within a longer questionable duration window wherein you want to get as much damage as possible with damage clumped as tightly as possible, especially at the end where it is most important.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Kitru

[Hydurz]

everyone is talking about infiltraition and I agree that force breach should be used asap if you want burst ( 5x exit strat. critting = ~4k-5k dmg with battlemaster/champ gear)

 

 

But i digress

 

I assume that the discussion of having the extra force for infiltration is dependent upon the player.

 

 

Lets look at balance tho… Telekinetic Throw can proc for about 1k every proc which is decent. But it is used as a Bridge for when your low on force

 

 

The Force mystic armor Increases +alcaricty soo that means TK channels Faster

 

 

This also provides extra force which is only beneficial for a balance specced shadow

 

 

I feel that as balance i put up wayy more DPS in pve (EV/KP hm etc).

 

 

For pvp I still like infiltration and the +force potency on the stalker set is invaluable.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Hydurz