Kinetic VS Infiltration

[rphodge]

So, I feel as if I have played both specs enough and I think it's time to make a decision on what I think is worth putting alot more effort into getting better with . I have full Champ gear so being under geared for a spec is not a concern.

 

I'm really curious on what people think is the most viable spec for the majority of PVP situation's. I feel as if my current Kinetic build is great for a moderate amount of DPS and a moderate amount of control. So do you think just the raw DPS from Infiltration is even worth the amount of defense and control that Kinetic has? thanks

Edited January 27, 2012 by rphodge

[Malbolgiaz]

It heavily depends on whether you are alone or with a group imo. Infiltration becomes amazing when given some support but if you're running alone 23/0/18 seems stronger to me as far as contributing to a warzone victory goes.

[McGrumpy]

23/0/18 will help your team win more in most WZ situations in my opinion.

 

Hybrid is king of Huttball as Shadows are the top ball runners and the durability, increased resilience, and force speed cooldown (and snare break) etc...

 

In Civil war you can hold nodes solo against several enemies for extended periods of time. You can go after their right node solo at the start and keep them from capping for 90+ seconds. Or can run with other members of your group for taunts/guards and solid damage.

 

Voidstar offense is maybe the one time in WZ I'd rather be inf. The key to winning Voidstar is getting ahead of their respawn curve after the first door is down. And while both specs can 1v1 effectively, you're going to secure that kill on the one or two guys who may be ahead of the mass as inf much faster. Additionally, infs have innate movement speed to go along with force speed.

 

For defense on voidstar hard to beat anything tanky.

 

For open world PvP I have to give the nod to inf. You want to secure your solo kills faster before the other members show up, and that's the spec to do it.

 

I believe the poster above me said it best that a lot of things change given the group you're running with. But on the whole i find the utility of Kinetic outweighs the damage of Inf.

[anstalt]

Depends whether you want DPS or utility.

 

I find that although at the end of a warzone my DPS stats are similar, in reality my inf spec smashs people much easier but dies more often, so the DPS i do is more effective but I have more downtime. My kinetic build has much lower burst damage but survives longer and has loads more utility.

 

In general, I find inf better for:

 

Open World PvP

Attacking in Voidstar

Attacking in Alderaan

 

I find kinetic better for:

 

Defending in Alderaan

Defending in Voidstar

Huttball

 

Both builds remain fairly squishy against other force users / tech attacks but kinetic you are likely to have more health and much better defence against non-tech/force attacks (My kinetic is a beast against other assassins for example, they can hardly touch me!). Some highlights for me are defending central turret in alderaan against 6 empire with just a pocket healer.

 

For me, having now spent just over a week at endgame with both builds, im going back to full inf. Whilst I'm going to miss force-pull a lot I just find inf more fun. Add to that hybrid builds aren't great for hardmode flashpoints so inf saves on respec costs. Will only need 1 set of gear and 1 build so can spend more time pvping :-)

[rphodge]

I appreciate all the feedback. I for sure going to stay Kinetic due to the lack of Tanking in my premade groups. Just wish dual spec was in the game to just switch in some cases. Edited January 28, 2012 by rphodge

[StainedLotus]

I am by no means an expert but I read all of this guides carefully and i experiment.I am only 41 so can't speak as a fully geared fifty but i prefer infiltration because i get to be more flashy .

 

Another thing i do is Stance dance. I don't know how effective it is at 50 but in low level pvp I become quite effective at helping the team. Since I'm Infiltration, I'll pick off healers or lonesome ranged dpsers ad try to burn them. If help comes i switch to combat stance to provide an escape. If i see that something is being captured I go in as combat stance to distract the cluster or protect a healer while still being able to do some respectable damage. This requires massive meter management and changing stances is costly and you can be starved if done at the wrong time. I use Infiltration as my main spec and not eh kinetic build because infiltration is less dependent on shadow stance than kinetic is of combat stance

[RobNightfall]

This boils down to play style. Simply put, play the one you're best at.

[Grometsc]

So, I feel as if I have played both specs enough and I think it's time to make a decision on what I think is worth putting alot more effort into getting better with . I have full Champ gear so being under geared for a spec is not a concern.

 

I'm really curious on what people think is the most viable spec for the majority of PVP situation's. I feel as if my current Kinetic build is great for a moderate amount of DPS and a moderate amount of control. So do you think just the raw DPS from Infiltration is even worth the amount of defense and control that Kinetic has? thanks

 

Dont count out a balance spec...

 

7/3/31 using CT stance

 

or the only high tank build I would actually try

 

28/13/0

[capmjack]

which spec would you guys recommend for quick leveling and PVE dps? Just started a Shadow and cant tell which is better, thanks

[stridemachine]

Could someone tell me where the bursty'ness of INF comes from? I've compared the basic INF spec to a 28/0/18 and overall, I'd say they're quite close (damagewise).

I've assembled a few key talents from each spec and outlined them below (Hybrid talents are on the left side, INF on the right):

 

Double strike 50% crit bonus > CS

Particle acceleration auto crit + CD reset + 15% talent = CS +30% damage bonus

*Add in Force Potency with Particle Acc. = 50% Project crit bonus

Force in Balance (mobile long range instant AOE) > Shadow tech force breach

*Insta free Mind crush = benefits of shadow tech force breach talents

 

 

For utility we have Hybrid's extra anytime cc (Kick), the utility of Force Pull (interrupt, etc), Kinetic Ward, Force speed talents, Extra insta cast cc (Forcelift) and enhanced survival due to defensive talents (Technique Mastery, Jedi Resistance, Double-Bladed Saber Defense, etc).

 

On the INF side there are: a few nice CD reductions (Celerity, Security Breach, Fade), continuous slow (subduing tech), increased movement speed while stealthed and great force cost reduction on Project.

 

Both spec's have nice options for force regen but IMO Hybrid edges it out w/ a flat 30% regen bonus.

 

As far as I can tell, the main selling point for INF is Infiltration Tactics + the crit bonus of Circling Shadows, but the drawbacks (positioning issues, stutter effect bug and 10 sec cd) plus the fact that many INF spec'd Shadows flat out say they don't use SS ("The only ability that an Inf Shadow has that costs a large amount is non-proc Shadow Strike, which you shouldn't be using in the first place"-- Kitra) seems to negate the biggest selling point of the INF spec.

 

Bear in mind that all this is merely my observations from studying the spec's, watching videos and playing. If I've missed something, feel free to point it out.

 

Thanks

Edited January 28, 2012 by stridemachine

[RockysRevenge]

Could someone tell me where the bursty'ness of INF comes from?

 

Procs, relics, stims, the element of surprise, and being in the right place at the right time.

 

Have you seen Powerr's bursting guide? Check out the videos. Timing, keybinds, and mouse turning are pretty crucial.

 

But what would be REALLY interesting would be to see his INF spec and his tank spec duel each other. Both seem fairly unstoppable, but I'd agree with what everyone else has said that the tank specs generally seem to have more utility. Also fun to see operatives and BH's try and mow you down only to get a saber in the face .

[Jobalo]

which spec would you guys recommend for quick leveling and PVE dps? Just started a Shadow and cant tell which is better, thanks

 

Kinetic or Balanced (though I'd stick to Kinetic) is by far the better DPS in PvE because of the companions you get...INF ppl find it harder to grind through certain levels of gameplay especially at the start of certain planets. I struggled hard at level 26 on Tatooine with my INF Shadow spec

[gunslinger]

So, I feel as if I have played both specs enough and I think it's time to make a decision on what I think is worth putting alot more effort into getting better with . I have full Champ gear so being under geared for a spec is not a concern.

 

I'm really curious on what people think is the most viable spec for the majority of PVP situation's. I feel as if my current Kinetic build is great for a moderate amount of DPS and a moderate amount of control. So do you think just the raw DPS from Infiltration is even worth the amount of defense and control that Kinetic has? thanks

 

maybe a dumb question, but how do you pvp enough to get a full set of champ gear and not know which spec is most viable for you? I'm just starting my shadow, but on my main (which is still only 32), I decided by about level 15 which style I preferred.

[stridemachine]

Could someone tell me where the bursty'ness of INF comes from?

Procs, relics, stims, the element of surprise, and being in the right place at the right time.

 

Procs, relics, stims, etc all work just as well for any other spec, or am I missing something?

 

All I can speculate at this point is that Shadow's FB has an edge over FiB (single target obviously), but I have not tested FB vs FiB

[Grometsc]

Could someone tell me where the bursty'ness of INF comes from? I've compared the basic INF spec to a 28/0/18 and overall, I'd say they're quite close (damagewise).

I've assembled a few key talents from each spec and outlined them below (Hybrid talents are on the left side, INF on the right):

 

Double strike 50% crit bonus > CS

Particle acceleration auto crit + CD reset + 15% talent = CS +30% damage bonus

*Add in Force Potency with Particle Acc. = 50% Project crit bonus

Force in Balance (mobile long range instant AOE) > Shadow tech force breach

*Insta free Mind crush = benefits of shadow tech force breach talents

 

 

For utility we have Hybrid's extra anytime cc (Kick), the utility of Force Pull (interrupt, etc), Kinetic Ward, Force speed talents, Extra insta cast cc (Forcelift) and enhanced survival due to defensive talents (Technique Mastery, Jedi Resistance, Double-Bladed Saber Defense, etc).

 

On the INF side there are: a few nice CD reductions (Celerity, Security Breach, Fade), continuous slow (subduing tech), increased movement speed while stealthed and great force cost reduction on Project.

 

Both spec's have nice options for force regen but IMO Hybrid edges it out w/ a flat 30% regen bonus.

 

As far as I can tell, the main selling point for INF is Infiltration Tactics + the crit bonus of Circling Shadows, but the drawbacks (positioning issues, stutter effect bug and 10 sec cd) plus the fact that many INF spec'd Shadows flat out say they don't use SS ("The only ability that an Inf Shadow has that costs a large amount is non-proc Shadow Strike, which you shouldn't be using in the first place"-- Kitra) seems to negate the biggest selling point of the INF spec.

 

Bear in mind that all this is merely my observations from studying the spec's, watching videos and playing. If I've missed something, feel free to point it out.

 

Thanks

 

 

You are not looking at the top tier talents

 

50% critical bonus on project and FB (which is internal dmg)

 

Then balance spec beats out kinetic/hybrid

 

30% critical increase on fib and dot criticals

20% dot dmg increase on targets you fib

10% on melee dmg after project

[stridemachine]

You are not looking at the top tier talents

 

50% critical bonus on project and FB (which is internal dmg)

 

If you re-read what you quoted from me, you'll notice I did address this on the bold parts:

 

Particle acceleration auto crit + CD reset + 15% talent = CS +30% damage bonus

*Add in Force Potency with Particle Acc. = 50% Project crit bonus Force in Balance (mobile long range instant AOE) > Shadow tech force breach

*Insta free Mind crush = benefits of shadow tech force breach talents

 

Now, if you'd like to compare a hybrid to balanced, I'm down.

 

Balanced:

 

-Sever Force: long range DOT with a 2 second root

-30% crit damage on FiB + DOTs

-20% DOT damage w/ FiB

-10% bonus melee damage for 20 sec's after using project

-Force Technique Force Breach

vs

 

Hybrid:

 

-Particle acceleration auto crit + CD reset + 15% damage bonus talent

*Add in Force Potency with Particle Acc. = 50% Project crit bonus

-synergy bonus: aforementioned crit additionally triggers Force Synergy, which is a 9% crit bonus chance on melee (i'd say this is a wash with twin Disciplines)

-extra anytime cc (Kick)

-the utility of Force Pull (interrupt, etc)

-Kinetic Ward

-Force speed talents

-enhanced survival due to defensive talents (Technique Mastery, Double-Bladed Saber Defense, etc).

 

In short, the comparison essentially comes down to utility vs. straight up damage. Balance has Sever Force and the possibility of extra damage on DOTs (Mental Scarring/Force Supp.), whereas Hybrid has big damage Projects (all benefits taken together) and a ton of utility (kick, force pull, defense, kinetic ward, etc). Additionally, Hybrid has vastly superior options for outstanding Force regen.

Which spec comes out on top?

Edited January 29, 2012 by stridemachine

[Lawconis]

I dont know about all the math...

 

But I will say that Infiltration is broken if Shadow Strike fails to launch...even once.

 

That's why in part I am enjoying Kinetic atm.

[Rhata]

Not too long ago I changed from Infiltration to Kinetic not because Infiltration wasn't working out but because to get 30 kills on Ilum on a server that's 6:1 ratio of Imps to Republic and they push you back to your base, force pull for an instant kill is a godsend.

 

That being said in instances I haven't done enough yet to fully asses and give a definitive answer because on the one hand project does do about 1k less damage but with kinetic tree I have double strike and a few others refreshing the cool down on it immediately and I regain force 30% faster. Also because I only put kinetic up to force pull and project damage and threat increased by 15% where as I went all out in infiltration to clairvoyant strike, I had more points to put into balance and am able to actually weave mind crush into the rotation with the force strike ability occasionally making it an instant cast. Plus force in balance is a modest but handy AoE in some situations.

 

So on the one hand I had really high damage numbers from infiltration but after that first initial burst I would have to wait more time for force to regenerate and/or reposition myself for shadow strike where as now it seems to be lower damage numbers but damage being dealt at a more steady rate.

Edited January 29, 2012 by Rhata

[SirCruor]

Sorry for the noob question...can someone link to the 23/0/18 spec in a talent calculator website. Just rolled a jedi shadow and wish to level through PvP. So far I am seeing this spec as the way to go. Mostly for medals and such. Thanks in advance.

[sildoor]

If you re-read what you quoted from me, you'll notice I did address this on the bold parts:

 

Particle acceleration auto crit + CD reset + 15% talent = CS +30% damage bonus

*Add in Force Potency with Particle Acc. = 50% Project crit bonus Force in Balance (mobile long range instant AOE) > Shadow tech force breach

*Insta free Mind crush = benefits of shadow tech force breach talents

 

Now, if you'd like to compare a hybrid to balanced, I'm down.

 

Balanced:

 

-Sever Force: long range DOT with a 2 second root

-30% crit damage on FiB + DOTs

-20% DOT damage w/ FiB

-10% bonus melee damage for 20 sec's after using project

-Force Technique Force Breach

vs

 

Hybrid:

 

-Particle acceleration auto crit + CD reset + 15% damage bonus talent

*Add in Force Potency with Particle Acc. = 50% Project crit bonus

-synergy bonus: aforementioned crit additionally triggers Force Synergy, which is a 9% crit bonus chance on melee (i'd say this is a wash with twin Disciplines)

-extra anytime cc (Kick)

-the utility of Force Pull (interrupt, etc)

-Kinetic Ward

-Force speed talents

-enhanced survival due to defensive talents (Technique Mastery, Double-Bladed Saber Defense, etc).

 

In short, the comparison essentially comes down to utility vs. straight up damage. Balance has Sever Force and the possibility of extra damage on DOTs (Mental Scarring/Force Supp.), whereas Hybrid has big damage Projects (all benefits taken together) and a ton of utility (kick, force pull, defense, kinetic ward, etc). Additionally, Hybrid has vastly superior options for outstanding Force regen.

Which spec comes out on top?

 

"*Add in Force Potency with Particle Acc. = 50% Project crit bonus" is bugged on shadow and dont give any bonus damage at all .. its easy to test this your self and you will see that its true..