Vengeance: An Alternate Path

[Dracosz]

Jorrus' Vengeance PvP Compendium

EDIT: This post is being reworked -- information regarding certain stats may not be complete, pm me if you have any questions --

 

Let me preface this post by stating that I believe that all the specs that juggernauts have ARE viable in differing capacities for PvP, this post isn’t meant to bash on players playing these specs, rather, it’s meant to offer the community a fair look at vengeance which I feel has been underrated and sidelined by many of the more stubborn players within the community.

 

I’ve played my fair share of warzones and have had time to work out the kinks in my spec as a juggernaut. While I’ve enjoyed Rage’s fantastic crits and lolled as players have struggled to break me down as immortal, no playstyle has been more rewarding or, in my opinion, as fun as vengeance.

 

NB: Here are the specs I’m referring to, my immortal one is probably not the best out there so don’t hate the fact that it's not there! (There was another poster in this forum that did a fantastic job covering a DPS immortal spec which I believe is very viable in the right group setting). I do not include it here in my discussion, but feel free to offer any critiques.

 

Rage: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101cMZhMZGrRMddMdGo.1

Vengeance: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101crZIMrRruddMR.1

 

Let’s first look at the baseline strengths and weaknesses of the class:

 

- Pros:

o Decent burst damage

o AoE snare

o Group utility via taunt/guard (all three specs can make use of this effectively)

o Powerful mobility (especially in huttball)

o Force Push/Charge shenanigans

- Cons:

o Unreliable defensive cds (Endure pain is almost as bad as the new rakata medpack)

o Strongest damage is in melee, few ranged tools out of the 30 yd range when kited save for saber throw.

o Weak sustained damage when kited

o Burst reliant on stims/adrenals

o Very suspect to CC

o Poor Rage generation out of melee when charge/saber throw is down

o No self-healing

It is my belief and experience that vengeance has tools that alleviate these concerns.

Why Vengeance?

 

Vengeance:

- Pros:

o 4% increase to Endurance and Passive damage Reduction

o 20% Damage Reduction on the charge/Intercede (Yes they stack)

o CC Immunity after charge (stuns/sleeps/knockbacks)

o 6% Increased strength

o Upwards of a 50% damage increase if slowed

o Rage Gain when knocked down/stunned/sleeped

o 45 CD on AoE CC

o Shien Form

o Free Smash! (Sort of something I threw in it’s just fun to hit smash on the fleet and spook someone, but it’s also great for pulling out runaway operatives or assassins)

o Internal damage (not a lot but some which DOES scale with power)

- Cons:

o Low(er) Crit Damage than rage

o Reliant on Charge/Intercede

 

Really, there are SO many FANTASTIC things in the vengeance tree that a lot of people ignore simply because they “want to see big numbers”. Big numbers are cool and all, but when you’re playing against good players, tanks will really shut down the rage burst damage (especially the wonky now-unattainable 9k figures some bright sparks thought were the greatest thing the class could offer). Vengeance offers a player a lot more to work with in the interim.

 

To draw analogy to WoW, I would consider vengeance to be the equivalent of a pre-nerf Unholy Death knight, with damage that adds up very quickly but isn’t as noticeable as that of their arms warrior counterpart in a TSG comp. (if that flew over your head, I don’t blame you). Put simply, vengeance’s damage is something that shows up the longer you are on a target and unlike rage vengeance can do that very well due to its increased survivability and CC immunity. Rage will simply not last long enough to duke itout in longer fights.

 

(Note: I don’t consider rage to be an arms warrior, I’d say that in terms of playstyle it’s a lot closer to Feral Druids in patch 2.0 and at the very start of BC).

 

Gearing for Vengeance: Power through the Pain

Our primary stat is strength, it gives us crit and bonus damage (there’s a lot of math out there, I don’t really want to go into it but sithwarrior.com is a great place to start looking). With my wonderful mathcrafting friends, we found that 1 point of power was approximately worth 1.1 strength in bonus damage barring the gains to crit. But wait! As a vengeance specced juggernaut, we have 6% bonus strength on our base total! So this DOES make strength a stronger stat for us (rage specced guys should probably look into that >_>)

 

Math aside, our priority is as follows:

 

Accuracy Cap > 10% exp > Strength > Power > Surge = Crit

 

Note that I do drop the 3 points in accuracy talents in vengeance to make room for the free chilling scream. This is intentional due to the fact that I also save enough points to pick up a guaranteed free force scream which allows you to front-load damage as vengeance very quickly. They are, however, free points to work with in the build, so feel free to move them as you see fit.

 

I also need to stress the importance of the accuracy cap, our rage generation in melee is highly reliant upon sunder armor as any of the three specs and having it get deflected can be quite detrimental to sustaining our damage. A lot of players seem to like to skimp on that and drop to 96% accuracy which I feel is a pitfall in the long run. Play it safe folks, GET CAPPED.

 

In addition, try to keep gear with expertise on it unless you have a sith archon orange belt/bracer, in which case you can be super awesome and mod that thing to godmode (102 str 34 power and 64 stam, better than rakata trolololol). Ideally though, every slot should be a piece of PvP gear except your relic slot in which you should have the green matrix crystal (it’s beastly), if you don’t have it (or can’t stand the wait on the rakata energy cubes) use the yellow one while you wait it out. This brings me to another point.

Don’t blindly buy gear because it has a higher armor rating!

If you want to go after specific mods/enhancements, look for Adept mods (power/surge), the BH bosses in Kraggas palace on hard/nightmare drop level 25 mods with power/surge. There are also crafted ones at level 22 that are still better than a lot of the mods in pvp gear.

 

In addition, use your commendations to purchase gear with appropriate secondary stats, the battlemaster’s chestpiece for juggernauts has mods with an unhealthily high amount of crit, which when compared to the champions chestpiece is absolutely horrendous. While it might seem scumbaggy to do so, I recommend buying the gloves and even pieces from other classes (Some Bounty hunter mainset pieces come to mind) to get the right stat allocation for you.

 

As for relics, the power relic is the way to go because power has no cap.

 

Also, biochem, GET IT. The adrenals ARE better than the WZ one (again, I recommend the power one because it avoids wasting secondary stat allocation)

 

 

I will be posting videos in the next few weeks covering my thoughts on vengeance and showcasing the playstyle a bit more. I welcome any questions or debate in the space below. Remember, I'm NOT trying to tell people that rage sucks or that they should stop playing immortal, I just want to dispel the illusion that Vengeance is garbage once and for all.

 

EDIT 1: Video added http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PAlEnoA1hk&feature=youtube_gdata

 

This isn't a video to show off any particular sort of skill, rather it's a game where I duo-queued (with the assassin ralas) and ended up against a team of republic battlemasters, in a sub 5 minute game, I was able to hit ~160k damage and contributed to the success of the team's win rather handily. Didn't really hit a lot of medals, but w/e

Edited March 11, 2012 by Dracosz

[flegg]

You don't have to waste a GCD to slow someone in rage spec.

 

You get a speed boost in rage spec.

Edited January 27, 2012 by flegg

[Scinald]

Also...it's not an illusion. But whatever floats your boat.

[bliapis]

Id like to note that the stat "Crit" is affecting your critical change while "Surge" is affecting your critical damage.

 

So i would favour crit over surge since surge only works when you do crit. and you want to crit often.

 

I remember a sweet spot for warrior or rogue or druid was starting at 40% up to 60% where it really shined.

 

 

So there are two different stats and more importantly, Surge is 100% dependable on the Critical stat.

[Dracosz]

You don't have to waste a GCD to slow someone in rage spec.

 

You get a speed boost in rage spec.

 

A speed boost is NOT a gap closer, if you've played as or against a WoW retribution paladin you'll know that

 

Id like to note that the stat "Crit" is affecting your critical change while "Surge" is affecting your critical damage.

 

So i would favour crit over surge since surge only works when you do crit. and you want to crit often.

 

I remember a sweet spot for warrior or rogue or druid was starting at 40% up to 60% where it really shined.

 

 

So there are two different stats and more importantly, Surge is 100% dependable on the Critical stat.

 

You need both of them in a balance, at a certain point of crit you'll want more surge than crit due to diminishing returns on stat gain. Similarly, you don't want to have too much surge at the cost of crit. They're dependant upon each other and that's why I place them as equals in the stat priority.

 

 

Also...it's not an illusion. But whatever floats your boat.

 

Unsubstantiated statements don't contribute to any discussion.

[Kugron]

Great post OP, I also run a vengeance spec and do agree that it has more benefits overall. I run with a bit of a different setup though. I can still crank out some nice crits however my spec is more focused around assisting and guarding more than just straight damage.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101crR0zZhrrMrhddMM.1

 

I don't take the stance boosting talents because I run in soresu 100% of the time. This is also why I put 2 in lash out to consume less rage for an extra damage ability. I feel that guard is just too valuable to not have up at all times. I also take the 1 point in guard stance so I can take Invincible which really comes in handy for huttball.

 

As for the gear I run with the same setup, all dps gear except for the offhand. Since I'm in soresu form I figured I may aswell take a shield generator for some small mitigation.

 

All in all, your spec looks pretty boss. Next time I feel like throwing out some damage I'll give it a go and see how I like it.

[Mystys]

I love vengeance, but I dont run nearly as many points into the tree as you do.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101cZI0rorudzMMZGr0zz.1

 

I find this spec is easily my favorite and works very well for me.

 

Thoughts?

[hallucigenocide]

question to the last 2 posts.. what is the purpose of these two speccs?

[Noth]

question to the last 2 posts.. what is the purpose of these two speccs?

 

Both are more pvp oreiented. One is setup to be more tanky in pvp with always running in soresu, and an extra defensive cooldown. the other is setup to be more offensive with another gap closer that also activate battle cry for free screams.

[hallucigenocide]

i'd say both would be fairly weak in pvp.. i think a pure dps veng spec would probably do better.. vengeance is all about the damage and if you sacrifice key talents for survival and uhm mobility? you'll probably end up just running around like a headless chicken til someone finishes you off with ease

[Dracosz]

i'd say both would be fairly weak in pvp.. i think a pure dps veng spec would probably do better.. vengeance is all about the damage and if you sacrifice key talents for survival and uhm mobility? you'll probably end up just running around like a headless chicken til someone finishes you off with ease

 

While both the specs you posted are are nice and interesting, they try to go down too many paths. The tank-oriented vengeance spec sounds fun, but if you go into immortal then you can see that there are talents that offer better talents to help aid you in guarding targets (sonic barrier in particular comes to mind when absorbing damage), similarly, the hybrid spec seems fun and I did actually play it for a bit. When it comes down to it though, neither spec fully accomplishes the goal of the overall spec.

[flegg]

A speed boost is NOT a gap closer, if you've played as or against a WoW retribution paladin you'll know that

 

 

The speed boost is just extra. You don't have to waste a GCD to slow because one of your main skills is a slow (force crush). Rage spec can also get a free chilling scream if desired and specced into.

Edited January 27, 2012 by flegg

[Kugron]

i'd say both would be fairly weak in pvp.. i think a pure dps veng spec would probably do better.. vengeance is all about the damage and if you sacrifice key talents for survival and uhm mobility? you'll probably end up just running around like a headless chicken til someone finishes you off with ease

 

Not the case at all, at least not if you play it right. As I said in my original post, the point of this spec is not damage, but basically to guard/tank damage and still be able to put out a fair amount of damage yourself.

 

I tried to run a full on vengeance spec, and the problem I had was that I was constantly rage starved given shatters retartedly large rage cost. This is why I did not take it for my build.

I also tried the full on shien form vengeance build, the problem here was that guard is insanely important in pvp and can only be used in soresu form. Sure you can stance dance into soresu and throw it on, but it's a complete rage dump, takes up a global, and it then means you're wasting 4-5 talent points that you put into buffing shien form.

 

I understand what you're saying, its damage is not as optimal as it could be, but it's focus is not insane deeps, it's to be able to utilize guard as much as possible while still being able to put out decent burst of your own. I've tried many different variations of all three specs and I have to say that this one is my favorite, but of course that is just my opinion.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Kugron

[Dracosz]

The speed boost is just extra. You don't have to waste a GCD to slow because one of your main skills is a slow (force crush). Rage spec can also get a free chilling scream if desired and specced into.

 

I get a free force scream and shien form =P. In any case, yes, rage has a superior singe-target snare. I'm not going to dispute that, regardless, I feel as though vengeance has easier access to a free AoE snare which DOES help in group play quite well.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Dracosz

[Dracosz]

Not the case at all, at least not if you play it right. As I said in my original post, the point of this spec is not damage, but basically to guard/tank damage and still be able to put out a fair amount of damage yourself.

 

I tried to run a full on vengeance spec, and the problem I had was that I was constantly rage starved given shatters retartedly large rage cost. This is why I did not take it for my build.

I also tried the full on shien form vengeance build, the problem here was that guard is insanely important in pvp and can only be used in soresu form. Sure you can stance dance into soresu and throw it on, but that then means you're wasting 4-5 talent points that you put into buffing shien form.

 

I understand what you're saying, its damage is not as optimal as it could be, but it's focus is not insane deeps, it's to be able to utilize guard as much as possible while still being able to put out decent burst of your own. I've tried many different variations of all three specs and I have to say that this one is my favorite, but of course that is just my opinion.

 

Your final point is what matters, play what you find fun. It's my personal opinion that you would be able to play immortal and keep the same playstyle, but that's your prerogative. Keep at it!

[hallucigenocide]

Not the case at all, at least not if you play it right. As I said in my original post, the point of this spec is not damage, but basically to guard/tank damage and still be able to put out a fair amount of damage yourself.

 

I tried to run a full on vengeance spec, and the problem I had was that I was constantly rage starved given shatters retartedly large rage cost. This is why I did not take it for my build.

I also tried the full on shien form vengeance build, the problem here was that guard is insanely important in pvp and can only be used in soresu form. Sure you can stance dance into soresu and throw it on, but that then means you're wasting 4-5 talent points that you put into buffing shien form.

 

I understand what you're saying, its damage is not as optimal as it could be, but it's focus is not insane deeps, it's to be able to utilize guard as much as possible while still being able to put out decent burst of your own. I've tried many different variations of all three specs and I have to say that this one is my favorite, but of course that is just my opinion.

 

tbh i feel that you like alot of the community is trying to fill to many roles into 1... problem is in most cases you'll need tank or dps.. not some halfassed(pardon my french) in between

[Noth]

i'd say both would be fairly weak in pvp.. i think a pure dps veng spec would probably do better.. vengeance is all about the damage and if you sacrifice key talents for survival and uhm mobility? you'll probably end up just running around like a headless chicken til someone finishes you off with ease

 

You'd be surprised at how well the hybrid venge/rage spec does in pvp. PvP being about burst, shatter barely ever gets to run it's course and you shouldn't be using ravage enough for rampage to even matter. Instead you get another move to use when they are out of melee range that also closes the gap and makes your next scream free. In essence this build gives you more time on target. I personally prefer a build that picks up intimidation though, as the free aoe slow is too nice.

[Jargonaut]

I'm trying out vengeance spec atm. Running with this http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101cZIMrRruddMRZMM.1

 

My gear isn't great yet so my damage is relatively low but I manage to kill some stuff. Put together

from my last few days play. If anyone else has made one I'd be interested in seeing different peoples playstyles on jugg.

 

I'd say I enjoy veng more than rage but I'm still undecided on effectiveness.

Edited January 28, 2012 by Jargonaut

[Dracosz]

I now have a stream operating at twitch.tv/lakhiz || Feel free to watch when I go live! (I'm fixing the Mic for next time, apparently it was using my integrated one and decided to regurgitate my voice+fan >_>). I'll be streaming both vengeance and rage so stay tuned

[Merihim]

i'd say both would be fairly weak in pvp.. i think a pure dps veng spec would probably do better.. vengeance is all about the damage and if you sacrifice key talents for survival and uhm mobility? you'll probably end up just running around like a headless chicken til someone finishes you off with ease

 

Then you never have tried the 14/27/0 build? Because that rocks.

[Faenon]

I also need to stress the importance of the accuracy cap . . . A lot of players seem to like to skimp on that and drop to 96% accuracy which I feel is a pitfall in the long run. Play it safe folks, GET CAPPED.

 

I was under the impression that first off, all "special" and force attacks have a base 100% accuracy and the only non-"special" attack is strike, and that secondly there is no real "cap" for pvp, as players' defense stats work against our accuracy, and therefore even with 100% accuracy, their defense stat will mean that we still won't hit 100% of the time. Therefore, what with accuracy's tooltip stating that values above 100% reduce your target's defense, the cap for any particular enemy in pvp would in theory depend entirely upon their defense stat (though, that being said, most non-tank specs will not have gear with defense rating - presumably - and so the "cap" could be said to be 105% for special & force attacks, thanks to base defense chance being 5%, and assuming that strike is the only non-special move).

 

That may have been a somewhat convoluted paragraph, but, regardless - thoughts?

 

EDIT: This is, of course, only regarding melee attacks. Force has a 100% chance to hit, and anything beyond that reduces the target's chance to resist the attack, which as far as I'm aware cannot currently be pushed beyond 3%, making that side of the discussion a moot point.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Faenon

[Dracosz]

I was under the impression that first off, all "special" and force attacks have a base 100% accuracy and the only non-"special" attack is strike, and that secondly there is no real "cap" for pvp, as players' defense stats work against our accuracy, and therefore even with 100% accuracy, their defense stat will mean that we still won't hit 100% of the time. Therefore, what with accuracy's tooltip stating that values above 100% reduce your target's defense, the cap for any particular enemy in pvp would in theory depend entirely upon their defense stat (though, that being said, most non-tank specs will not have gear with defense rating - presumably - and so the "cap" could be said to be 105% for special & force attacks, thanks to base defense chance being 5%, and assuming that strike is the only non-special move).

 

That may have been a somewhat convoluted paragraph, but, regardless - thoughts?

 

EDIT: This is, of course, only regarding melee attacks. Force has a 100% chance to hit, and anything beyond that reduces the target's chance to resist the attack, which as far as I'm aware cannot currently be pushed beyond 3%, making that side of the discussion a moot point.

 

I made this post 2 or 3 weeks ago before I did the relevant math. Since then I've backtracked a little, 98% is the PvE cap (108% for special attacks). In PvP, I've found that staying above 95% helps since a lot of tanks pick up accuracy debuff talents. Since most players don't have a TON of defense gear, I've found that the best way to go about things is to stay around 96% accuracy. It keeps you above 90% if the debuff comes into play whilst giving you enough accuracy to stay above player defense caps in PvP.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Dracosz

[Actua]

Im actually sporting a vengeance build including shatter and all the bleeds. It kinda rocks when you get used to it and learn to use shatter at the right time (I.E. not use it when its useless.)

 

Ive tried Full Rage, Immortal , Vengeance/Rage Impale/Obliterate Hybrid, soem Immortal DPS, .... I've tried em all extensively.

 

Shatter can be really really powerful when you time it right, Mine crits for 2-2.5 k and the ticks crit for 700-800.

 

Wouldn't say its more powerful than other stuff, but it will help out on tougher targets (Tanks, healers, ball carriers ect..) and you won't lose 1v1, EVER, except against good marauders.

[vaelphor]

subscribed! informative thread for those who don't know this info already, and your videos are equally fun to watch. looking forward to vol. 3! you should also check out Excessive's video; some impressive vigilance (vengeance mirror) pvp!

[SithTheDarkLord]

*Bump* for more discussion.

 

Would you recommend taking the crit/surge enhancements out the champion helm/gloves and replacing them with stats from the champion chest for example?