Sniper is hands down the worst class in SWTOR(PvP)

[Ayestes]

Just to clarify for those that don't understand the mechanic...

 

There are 4 types of damage in this game. Energy, Kinetic, Elemental, and Internal. Energy and Kinetic is reduced by Armor while Elemental and Internal is not.

 

Then there are 4 types of attacks in this game. Melee, Ranged, Tech, and Force. Melee and Ranged attacks inherently carry the damage type of your weapon (which is either Kinetic or Energy) and are affected by the Defensive Chance of an opponent as well as the Shield Chance. Tech and Force attacks carry the damage type of the ability mentioned and ignore the opponents Defensive Chance and Shield Chance. Instead the only thing that can defend against it is Resist Chance.

 

The basic attack carries a 90% base accuracy while all your Ranged and Melee special attacks carry 100% base accuracy. Tech and Force Attacks inherently have 100% base accuracy because they are all special attacks. Additional accuracy above 100% counters an opponents Defense Chance and Resist Chance. There are two rolls in SWTOR for attacking a target. The first deals with Miss and Defense/Resist chance. The second deals with Crit and Shield chance. Essentially anything that Crits cannot be shielded against as it pushes it off the roll table.

 

A Mercenary's Tracer Missile is a Tech Attack that does Kinetic Damage, a Sniper's Snipe attack is a Special Ranged Attack that does Energy Damage, and a Sorcerer's Force Lightning is a Force Attack that does Energy Damage. Those are the basic attacks you are arguing about.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Ayestes

[Gaidax]

Just to clarify for those that don't understand the mechanic...

 

There are 4 types of damage in this game. Energy, Kinetic, Elemental, and Internal. Energy and Kinetic is reduced by Armor while Elemental and Internal is not.

 

Then there are 4 types of attacks in this game. Melee, Ranged, Tech, and Force. Melee and Ranged attacks inherently carry the damage type of your weapon (which is either Kinetic or Energy) and are affected by the Defensive Chance of an opponent as well as the Shield Chance. Tech and Force attacks carry the damage type of the ability mentioned and ignore the opponents Defensive Chance and Shield Chance. Instead the only thing that can defend against it is Resist Chance.

 

The basic attack carries a 90% base accuracy while all your Ranged and Melee special attacks carry 100% base accuracy. Tech and Force Attacks inherently have 100% base accuracy because they are all special attacks. Additional accuracy above 100% counters an opponents Defense Chance and Resist Chance. There are two rolls in SWTOR for attacking a target. The first deals with Miss and Defense/Resist chance. The second deals with Crit and Shield chance. Essentially anything that Crits cannot be shielded against as it pushes it off the roll table.

 

A Mercenary's Tracer Missile is a Tech Attack that does Kinetic Damage, a Sniper's Snipe attack is a Special Ranged Attack that does Energy Damage, and a Sorcerer's Force Lightning is a Force Attack that does Energy Damage. Those are the basic attacks you are arguing about.

 

That's pretty much throwing pearls to the pigs there.

 

+1 for effort, though.

 

 

Edit: I used to be a nice guy just like you and then I took a Sniper Community to the knee...

Edited February 10, 2012 by Gaidax

[Andibelle]

Okay this is along thread, so forgive me if I say anything that has already been said.

 

What I'm gathering from what's been said is that people think snipers are bad in pvp for numerous reasons (squishy, long activation time, having to take cover, etc...)

 

Some people have voiced evidence for why it doesn't suck based on their own game play from 10-49. I can't personally speak for level 50s, but I know I frequently get the "unbeatable" message while I play and usually wind up with top damage or kills.

 

Now I get that I'm not level 50 yet. But what I've heard over and over is "I hit level 50, and suddenly I'm not good anymore. I get killed in two seconds! Its terrible."

 

Yeah...my umm bounty hunter just hit 50, and the same thing happens to her. Its not your activation time, its not taking cover, it is your gear. It is just what happens when you go to play with the big boys.

 

Personally I don't think snipers need any improvement. I've played other similar classes in other MMOs. You trade off defense, mobility, heals, whatever, for the fact that you can effectively 3-5 shot other players. Sniper isn't as easy as hitting 1,2,3,dead. There are lots of skills besides your attack skills that do wonderful things, try using them.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Andibelle

[Dasamukha]

I really shouldn't waste my time with this, but lets feed the trolls.

 

Learn to Read. I crit for 700. Sure it was a tank. Because he is a tank, I am prohibited from shooting at it? Hello? He was freaking carrying the ball. Oh, I get it learn to sniper. shoot the other guy. Don't qq, about low numbers. Shoot the guys around the ball carrier so you can get bigger numbers, ignore the guy that matters.

 

It "burst" me for 7K. Not an exaggeration. Never said it was one swing. It was actually 2 swings, both on the screen at the same time one for 3K+ and another for 4K+. I know jack about the other class mechanics, but when I say burst, I don't mean one shot 7K crit. However really if it is one swing or two does it really matter? Both numbers are hanging on the screen.

 

I don't claim to be a mechanic expert. I frankly don't care whether it is force damage or kinetic damage, or any other kind of damage. I have some abilities, and they do damage period. If I had a choice of what kind of damage I can do, then maybe, just maybe you would have a point. Instead we have shots on cool downs and no real ability to change. Unless we can use our explosive probe for its 2K damage once every what 15 seconds?

 

Point of this remains whether you believe that I exaggerate or not. We either kill shot the weak, work that some other player has done or soon will do, or wear down the strong, so some one else get the kill. Or we cause some healer to throw a meaningless heal that wipes our damage. We don't stop the tank, nor do we burst down the sorc. The BH who becomes annoyed by the 2K snipe crit throws up shield.

 

So here's to being only on defense. Here's to leg shots and flashbang and hoping someone died and can kill the ball carrier. Here's to being in the right place at the right time, and getting to cover pulse a group to hell and back. Here's to getting rolled by the opposing team, whether I am successful at stopping the score or not. Cheers to never running with the ball, and promptly throwing it away before some one finds me. Wait a minute. I get it now. Snipers are only good for . . . being the worst class in pvp.

 

edit: Last night I went head to head with another MM sniper. I sniped as I am want to do and I saw the word "cover" instead of the usual number. Seeing word "cover"I felt compelled to shoot again, just to make sure. Again I saw "cover". Seeing that I jumped up and tried to high five the guy. High fiveing pulled me out of cover so he shot me and sadly he did not experience the joy of seeing cover on his screen. I ran away, and was ROLF stomped by an assassin. Proof that no good deed goes unpunished, even for sniper on sniper action.

[Pain-]

Just to clarify for those that don't understand the mechanic...

 

There are 4 types of damage in this game. Energy, Kinetic, Elemental, and Internal. Energy and Kinetic is reduced by Armor while Elemental and Internal is not.

 

Then there are 4 types of attacks in this game. Melee, Ranged, Tech, and Force. Melee and Ranged attacks inherently carry the damage type of your weapon (which is either Kinetic or Energy) and are affected by the Defensive Chance of an opponent as well as the Shield Chance. Tech and Force attacks carry the damage type of the ability mentioned and ignore the opponents Defensive Chance and Shield Chance. Instead the only thing that can defend against it is Resist Chance.

 

The basic attack carries a 90% base accuracy while all your Ranged and Melee special attacks carry 100% base accuracy. Tech and Force Attacks inherently have 100% base accuracy because they are all special attacks. Additional accuracy above 100% counters an opponents Defense Chance and Resist Chance. There are two rolls in SWTOR for attacking a target. The first deals with Miss and Defense/Resist chance. The second deals with Crit and Shield chance. Essentially anything that Crits cannot be shielded against as it pushes it off the roll table.

 

A Mercenary's Tracer Missile is a Tech Attack that does Kinetic Damage, a Sniper's Snipe attack is a Special Ranged Attack that does Energy Damage, and a Sorcerer's Force Lightning is a Force Attack that does Energy Damage. Those are the basic attacks you are arguing about.

 

That's accurate. But this is exactly the problem.

 

Tech and Force attacks as you stated, go through a resist check.. while ranged and melee go through shield and defense.

 

Last I checked, I can't raise my resist via gear (or nowhere near the level of defense/shield) This explains why Snipers get deflected, and Sorc/Mercs do not. Correct?

Edited February 10, 2012 by Pain-

[Noctournys]

That's accurate. But this is exactly the problem.

 

Tech and Force attacks as you stated, go through a resist check.. while ranged and melee go through shield and defense.

 

Last I checked, I can't raise my resist via gear (or nowhere near the level of defense/shield) This explains why Snipers get deflected, and Sorc/Mercs do not. Correct?

 

We get deflected because that's a defense chance, and it only checks against ranged and melee attacks (both special and normal).

[shadowAI]

Dasamukha 7k+ crits can occur in pvp, so no need to justify yourself.

instant cast heatseeker http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/764/bighits.jpg

[Gaidax]

Dasamukha 7k+ crits can occur in pvp, so no need to justify yourself.

instant cast heatseeker http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/764/bighits.jpg

 

That screen was from before the adrenal stacking nerf...

[jaakkeli]

but I know I frequently get the "unbeatable" message while I play and usually wind up with top damage or kills

 

I see the derp is strong in you.

[Ayestes]

That's accurate. But this is exactly the problem.

 

Tech and Force attacks as you stated, go through a resist check.. while ranged and melee go through shield and defense.

 

Last I checked, I can't raise my resist via gear (or nowhere near the level of defense/shield) This explains why Snipers get deflected, and Sorc/Mercs do not. Correct?

 

Correct. I agree that Marksman gets screwed in comparison to most other DPS classes in PvP. I'm just pointing out to the many that they are creating arguments that are extreme exaggerations or based on a misunderstanding of game mechanics. I mean we have one person telling us that a Sorc is all "Magic" damage and it's not mitigated by armor, when the vast majority of their attacks are mitigated by armor. Then you have another complaining about 7k bursts when I can easily do over 9k damage in a single Cull or over 10k with a Reactive Shot Ambush, Explosive Probe, and Followthrough. If we are going to push for change, we have to do it right.

 

There are actual flaws with the Sniper that only come out in higher level play. Some are problems that are evident in lower level play but rarely have a significant impact if you work around it. The problems I believe we have are our resource mechanic (Energy) problems coupled with issues with dispels for Lethality and avoidance chance for Marksman. According to the way most of these complaints go you'd think we are hitting for 1/10 of the damage other players are and we get rolled over by someone breathing on us. Which is just not true because the balance is very, very close excepting a few select issues. We don't need a major overhaul like +30% more damage or range, we need minor fixes to specific issues without increasing our overall damage.

[finansjapp]

Reading through this post make me wonder a couple of things. First off to those playing in good groups.... The sniper can be very good. The opposite if you play in bad group.

 

This is NOT the case for other classes. Bounty hunter and inquisitor can hold its own even in bad groups. Dont know about warrior as I dont have one, but I guess from meeting them its the same there.

 

That is what makes it hard to boost sniper. Those who play sniper in good groups would rule too much, while the average sniper would be on par with other classes. Lets face it. Our damage is like everyone else, defense is among worst, mobility is among worst and team play in many situations is among worst.

 

Sniper is a very challenging character to play if you dont play with friends. That is what makes it very rewarding also.

[Hizoka]

Correct. I agree that Marksman gets screwed in comparison to most other DPS classes in PvP. I'm just pointing out to the many that they are creating arguments that are extreme exaggerations or based on a misunderstanding of game mechanics. I mean we have one person telling us that a Sorc is all "Magic" damage and it's not mitigated by armor, when the vast majority of their attacks are mitigated by armor. Then you have another complaining about 7k bursts when I can easily do over 9k damage in a single Cull or over 10k with a Reactive Shot Ambush, Explosive Probe, and Followthrough. If we are going to push for change, we have to do it right.

 

There are actual flaws with the Sniper that only come out in higher level play. Some are problems that are evident in lower level play but rarely have a significant impact if you work around it. The problems I believe we have are our resource mechanic (Energy) problems coupled with issues with dispels for Lethality and avoidance chance for Marksman. According to the way most of these complaints go you'd think we are hitting for 1/10 of the damage other players are and we get rolled over by someone breathing on us. Which is just not true because the balance is very, very close excepting a few select issues. We don't need a major overhaul like +30% more damage or range, we need minor fixes to specific issues without increasing our overall damage.

 

 

 

why is it bad players just QQ instead of just getting better? Snipers have no more disadvantages then anyone else. Marauders deal with dodge/deflect/shield and they will wreck a BG if they are played right.

 

 

This problem DOES NOT LIE WITH ANY CLASS the problem is with the basement dwelling mouth breaking neck beards that suck at the game and blame the class rather then their bad play. People think because they were "awesome" in wow when they had 10 tiems the gear of everyone else they were skilled, this game does rely on more skill then gear and the baddies that need gear as a crutch blame the class now.

 

These threads are tired and worthless, because its just bad players qqing they cannot instantly win against people better skilled then they are. If you think Mercs are so OP (which they are very very easy to kill and **** down) then go play one of them.

[Ayestes]

I'm confused... do you agree with me and quoted it because of that or are you aiming that post at me. Cause if it's the latter, I don't think you read my post... and if it's the former you should make that more clear.

[shadowAI]

That screen was from before the adrenal stacking nerf...

 

Its related to how heatseeker works with heat signature and the fact that the Merc can currently benefit from heat signatures of other Mercs.

 

Ask 1 Merc to get 5 heat signatures on a target and use heatseeker. Ask 4 to do the same (20 heat signatures) and then use heatseeker. Much higher damage.

 

Obviously the 8.5k is a rare occurrence due to getting so many stacks on the same target without him/her dying being rare.

[maximusedward]

this game does rely on more skill then gear and the baddies that need gear as a crutch blame the class now.

That would explain why the lv 50s in full champion gear used to wrek WZs not because of gear but skills.

I must be rly skillful when I crit for 4K+ dmg on light blue lightsabers and half of that on dark blue light-sabers.

I guess expertise doesnt play a role in PvP.

Edited February 12, 2012 by maximusedward

[Nythain]

problem is with the basement dwelling mouth breaking neck beards

 

A. it's mouth breathing, how does one break a mouth.

B. what on earth does being a neckbeard have to do with anything. last i knew, neckbeard was a derogatory term for a freetard, someone who believes that free and open source software is the greatest thing to happen since sliced cheese. not someones ability to play a game. actually, if you stop and think about it, most of the die hard pvp'ers and mmo players are probably neckbeards, since their uber dorks by nature.

C. i fail to see what residing in a basement has to do with ones ability to play an mmo? they're cool year round, usually roomy, often times finished, and if one is renting they're usually pretty cheap.

 

*IF* you must be an insultive ****, can you at least use proper insults? kthnxbai

[ReggietheThird]

A. it's mouth breathing, how does one break a mouth.

B. what on earth does being a neckbeard have to do with anything. last i knew, neckbeard was a derogatory term for a freetard, someone who believes that free and open source software is the greatest thing to happen since sliced cheese. not someones ability to play a game. actually, if you stop and think about it, most of the die hard pvp'ers and mmo players are probably neckbeards, since their uber dorks by nature.

C. i fail to see what residing in a basement has to do with ones ability to play an mmo? they're cool year round, usually roomy, often times finished, and if one is renting they're usually pretty cheap.

 

*IF* you must be an insultive ****, can you at least use proper insults? kthnxbai

 

teehee, troll defenses spotted, dude if you're gonna troll don't be such a stereotype, you guys all fall back on grammar when you have no more points to make.

 

silly trolls

[Nythain]

teehee, troll defenses spotted, dude if you're gonna troll don't be such a stereotype, you guys all fall back on grammar when you have no more points to make.

 

silly trolls

 

lolz, you caught me. though the grammar correction was just one point. it's not like the poster i quoted went out of their way to say anything besides lrn2play, and in a rather incorrectly insultive way. i just wanted to clear the air a little bit. figure if everyone can post lrn2play i can trolololol too

 

Edit for the sake of actually contributing...

why is it bad players just QQ instead of just getting better? Snipers have no more disadvantages then anyone else. Marauders deal with dodge/deflect/shield and they will wreck a BG if they are played right.

Just because a good player can still wreck, doesn't mean a class or classes aren't at a mechanical disadvantage. Good players will be good, but the fact remains that Marauder/Sentinel and Sniper/Gunslinger are at a mechanical disadvantage for at least 2 reasons...

1. Most of their attacks do standard weapon damage. This damage, unlike tech and force, is more susceptible to being dodged, deflected, shielded, and mitigated by armor. This is, in fact, a mechanical disadvantage. I don't care what you say about learning to play, and how a good player can still be good, that's beside the point.

2. Standard weapon attacks are at a -10% accuracy compared to force and tech attacks. Melee/Ranged start at 90% accuracy, Tech/Force start at 100% accuracy. This is, once again, a mechanical disadvantage. This is fact. Again, a good player can be good, but that's completely irrelevant to the point at hand.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Nythain

[Gaidax]

All Sniper attacks are considered special for accuracy calculations. Exception: Rifle Shot.

[Monkeybusiness]

All Sniper attacks are considered special for accuracy calculations. Exception: Rifle Shot.

 

Snipe/Ambush are considered fall under ranged, either the tooltip is lying to me (plausible) or it's effectively a ranged attack subjugated to the accuracy stat.

[Gaidax]

Snipe/Ambush are considered fall under ranged, either the tooltip is lying to me (plausible) or it's effectively a ranged attack subjugated to the accuracy stat.

 

Those are flagged as "special" for accuracy calculation purposes. I know it may not make sense because it is a white weapon damage/ranged attack/whatever, but "Special" property is a flag that is independent of the type of the attack.

 

So as I say, anything we have besides Rifle Shot is "special".

[Monkeybusiness]

Those are flagged as "special" for accuracy calculation purposes. I know it may not make sense because it is a white weapon damage/ranged attack/whatever, but "Special" property is a flag that is independent of the type of the attack.

 

So as I say, anything we have besides Rifle Shot is "special".

 

Then the tooltip is too vague , tnx for letting me know gaidax.

 

That said then the RNG element on Snipe/ambush/SoS of parry/block/deflect should be removed..., makes no sense actually,

 

Is it a bug or a glitch?

 

I don't know, could be people out there who actually tested this?

[Noctournys]

Those are flagged as "special" for accuracy calculation purposes. I know it may not make sense because it is a white weapon damage/ranged attack/whatever, but "Special" property is a flag that is independent of the type of the attack.

 

So as I say, anything we have besides Rifle Shot is "special".

 

Specials can still be defended against, if they are ranged attacks (which almost everything we do is, only Tech attacks bypass this) they will simply never roll "miss" o n the hit table since they have a 100% base accuracy. However, Accuracy V Defense is a straight-up point for point matchup.

 

If you have 100% accuracy (like you do on your specials) and are firing on someone with a 5% defense chance (whatever that defense is), then 5% of the time their defense will trigger. (Parry/Dodge/Deflect/Shield).

 

All bosses have an inherent 8% defense chance. So you need 8% accuracy even for your specials to hit 100% of the time in PvE.

 

In PvP.. firing on some classes (like tank specs) 0 you'd need some much accuracy to penetrate their defenses its largely not worth it to even try. (A sith warrior can have a 35%+ chance to shield with just daily-farmable enhancements).

 

Thats one of the reasons marksman fares so poorly in PvP against hard armor targets - they get lots of mitigation to our damage (as it is all weapon based) from their armor and if they are a tank spec, as much as 40-50% of the time our attacks can be defended against (depending o n spec, gear, etc).

 

Its why Lethality is good against them (all tech attacks that deal internal damage, thus mitigated by nothing and cant be defended against).

[Gaidax]

Never implied there is no deflect involved... just pointed out that our attacks, besides Rifle Shot, have 100% base accuracy and not 90% like people tend to think.

[Stranden]

 

All bosses have an inherent 8% defense chance. So you need 8% accuracy even for your specials to hit 100% of the time in PvE.

.

 

I've seen people say this all the time, but there might be a "bug" somewhere, or something that someone missed. I was at the Sorno fight in KP, and im sitting at 108,2 accuracy for specials, and yet my FT missed (rifle attacks too, but those have only 98% acc). So maybe some bosses have more defense, but I dunno. It sucks either way! Should have frapsed it to check it. It happened around 2-3 times that i noticed during the fight which was pretty hectic anyway.