Reverse Engineering Proc's

[firesprite_ea]

Regarding "proc rate should be hight for high lvl stuff". stuff. This is actually a pretty silly idea.

Pls remember several things when it comes to gear:

1) Leveling speed is silly. Seriously, this game just throws exp at you in absolutely crazy heaps and if you even try and do 60-70% of the quests - you will outlevel everything.

2) Based on above, you have to update your gear frequently OR update it only when you switch to a higher lvl planet. However it is safe to assume most people will try and update gear as soon as possible.

3) Due to 1 and 2 it is no use trying to proc anything pre 40 to purple- you outgrow it waaayyy too fast and the stat difference is negligible. Moreonve, it is even more useless to try and craft purple armour due to an absolutely silly crafting proc system. 3 tier 1 crafts and 5 on each for tier 2. Add to the the fact that you can (and WILL) get double procs for the wonderful: "you already have this schematic" message and crafting weapons / armours is totally useless.

4) Due to the fact that moddable armour is freely availabe from the very beginning of the game AND the fact that you can easily get bue mods (commendation ofc. and proccing green->blue for them is epic easy) it is very easy to keep your gear on the level.

5) Ofc now the crafter thinks: sooooo. let me craft for top level! Well, we all know that for enhancements/modshilts / barrels you can only craft lvl 49 stuff. And proccing blue ->purple for them at 49 is not cheap and can take a while. Anddd.... as we all know that is a total waste of money as the game will give you nice and shiny lvl 50 mods for free at lvl 50 with little to no effort.

Crafting armours lvl 49 is completely useles due to the very same reason. Mods allow more versatility AND are infinitely easier to acquire.

Surem some diehards will stress: my crafted purple gear with an augment slot have moar stats. My answer: sure. it has. But the amount of effort it takes to a) get necessary green->blu-> purple proc b) getting augment slot for your craft c) getting ALL 5 pieces of said gear (do not include bracers/belt here) will take so much effor and time it is useless to my mind. THe time you will spend gathering resourses, crafting items etc I can spend doing ops / HM FP for even better gear.

 

And so we come, once again, to the simple conclusion:

1) crew skills that create armour are useless end game and only allow you to assist yourself during the leveling.

2) RNG based Re system with a possiblity of double schematic killes it even further

3) Hardcore crafter crafted things and will continue crafting despite "over 9000 with nor crit" situations. Good for them

[Asfrid]

Hello,

 

from reading mixed postings on these forums I got the impression, that some items actualyl cannot be reverse engineered (vibro knives?).

 

For me quite a lot of uneasyness would be eased, if reverse engineering would give a system message (a) you failed finding a better schematic, (b) this item cannot be improved, © you already have all the upgrades for this item researched.

 

Regards,

Asfrid

Edited January 26, 2012 by Asfrid

[Jomps]

I thought purple was the highest grade and that you couldn't RE higher? That you could only crit on crafting?

 

Am I not getting something here? Who have ever been able to get Legendary items from crafting?

 

Yes you can crat purble items from base blue schematic. For example I reverse engineered TH07-watchmen helm from blue schematic to overkill puble one and futrher expert purble. So it just don't go to higher quality level (deep purblle).

 

I actualy gave up for the critical leggins I were reverse engineerin since it was driving me totaly mad. I started not with green items with great success. BTW prefer green base items since later on I realized that there is not a big difference between different base items... Good to know now. This tho might be a design flaw and we will se if it gets fixed.

 

Also I don't think that making a proc possible after numbers of fails would ruin the markets. If you consider this: Each time you fail at reverse engineering you get 1 point to your innovation track. When you have 100 innovation points you get random schematic based on what you have actualy reverseengineered. (ofcourse from the best possible end). When you hit the random proc innovation track is cleared and you have to collect 100 fails to succeed. This actualy wouldn't change a thing but would create a illusion about progression what is fundemantal aspect of games. We don't want to wonder if its a bug or not. Also recent post about meaningfull information would be very nice. Actualy saying that you don't have a change to improve the item would be nice...

Edited January 26, 2012 by Jomps

[BloodyOnslaught]

Yeah they need to change something, since the current state its just awful. I proc RE 20 and got the purple one but it wasn't the prefix i wanted so i continued and made 350 more blues and guess what i still didnt get another purple.

 

 

I need to agree that since the last patch they nerfed it.

[_Flin_]

RE is fine, l2...

 

uehm...

 

l2 sacrifice chicken and pray to the right supernatural beings. Currently I am having quite some success with sacrificing rum and praying to some Haitian Voodoo Loas.

 

My last blue to purple were 16 and 12.

[Delease]

I cant even get blues to proc...

[GnatB]

*shrug*

 

My worst streak of no RE procs on an item is still pre-patch. And yes, was in the 100's.

 

I find RE to be incredibly streaky. Most of the time I get an RE quickly. Frequently back to back. Then every once in a while I go forever without getting one on something.

 

No idea if it's just some things have higher difficulty, or if it's just RNG luck.

 

 

That being said, I did get that "already know this schematic" when I only knew one of them, and submitted it as a bug.

 

Got a reply that made it fairly obvious they did read and understand the complaint, but that it is definitely working "as intended" and that they WANT it to be a pain/time consuming to actually get a purple that isn't worthless... unless you get lucky.

[pokota]

Hello,

 

from reading mixed postings on these forums I got the impression, that some items actualyl cannot be reverse engineered (vibro knives?).

 

For me quite a lot of uneasyness would be eased, if reverse engineering would give a system message (a) you failed finding a better schematic, (b) this item cannot be improved, © you already have all the upgrades for this item researched.

 

Regards,

Asfrid

 

B and C are pretty good ideas. Right now, there are no fail-safes in place.

 

Also, this "you already know that schematic" issue needs to be fixed badly. If you already know much of the upgrade path, trying to get that last one of two patterns can be EXTREMELY frustrating. Your success rate seems to go down dramatically the more schematic you've found.

 

I've gotten "you already know that schematic" three times in a row. That's three times I've "won" on RNG, and got nothing. This is the worst aspect of crafting right now, and it's a good way to make people quit in disgust.

[Taova]

I think the proc rates changed this week. I put in a ticket of course but all I got back was their bs droid response.

 

Side note - Anyone claiming to RE 800 blues and doesn't get a proc, I'm calling bs.

[adrianvacaliuc]

you mean everyone should have everything available at little to no effort? Making things UNCERTAIN has a great value. If you'd be certain that x number of tries will give you desired effect, then it's just bad for the economy in general. not that economy is not completely broken right now, but i'm willing to give them benefit of the doubt that they will put some effort into fixing it.

 

so in short no, leave it random and let the lucky ones profit

 

With all due respect, your assertion that uncertainty always adds value is false. Case in point:

 

1. Most Tier 2 stuff is garbage. All presence gear at level cap is garbage. At best there are only 2 crafts for each Tier 2 set that is worth anything. Crit/shield? get real.

 

2. The RE proc rate is SO low that it is not cost effective to sink the money into it. Take lowbie leveling Tier 2 gear. You have to sink hundreds of thousands of credits in RE attempts to have a reasonable chance get something useful to someone. What is your markup going to be on a choice piece? 5k? 20k? 30000 credit leveling gear sells SLOW. Even at that high price, I need to sell 20+ copies to BREAK EVEN. Really? REALLY?

 

3. Farm your mats you say to cut down the cost? Nope. Opportunity cost, baby. Not selling 300k of raw mats on the AH is the same as spending 300k.

 

4. It's a fallacy to assume that rarity always increases value. There is a price point where no one will buy an item no matter how desireable it is. Unfortunately, the RE system as it stands makes things so expensive that crafters can't sell an item at a price you as a consumer is willing to buy. How do markets solve this problem? Easy, no product. Period.

 

It's a crying shame really. All that presence gear that would be awesome to have access to while you are leveling goes totally to waste because the only way to get it is if you are an extreme masochist. Remember getting the "Insane" title in wow? That's the level of effort required to get all the Tier 2 patterns for a profession in this game.

 

And I haven't even mentioned anything about the whole "you already know that schematic" debacle.... *shudder*

 

That, my friends, is what people call "broken".

[adrianvacaliuc]

I am going for all and I mean getting blues is normally 2-7 attempts. Getting purples normally 2-15 for the linear ones, I have had a bit more trouble with getting the split ones 5-25 with the worst one currently 34, tho I haven't got to the split ones at yellow skill level.

 

The number is more like 20-30 for Tier 2 schematics on average, and Tier 1 crit craft gear is better than most of the Tier 2 patterns you will get on the first try.

[adrianvacaliuc]

I mean really, how quickly do you guys want to turn this whole thing into a wow commodity market just like jewelcrafting? That's exactly how it's gonna be you know. You list yours, someone undercuts you, you undercut, you get undercut again, yada yada yada.

 

The only way to be really profitable in such a situation is to play the market every single minute you can, spread across lots of various markets, making precise undercuts. Doing this in wow is tedious, and I have good auction mods! Can you imagine with SWTOR's 50 item limit and no auction mods listing each one at a time? Having to search to price each one each time??!!

 

My god I shudder at the very thought. I couldn't play that. I just couldn't. Such a huge waste of time for freakin nothing.

 

You obviously don't understand swtor's AH mechanics very well. The listing deposit is very high (15% of asking price), but you get 100% of it back when the item is sold or if the listing expires. The AH here is NOT a money sink, like it is in wow, and therefore has a fundamentally different behavior profile.

 

The effect of this is that you don't get undercutting price wars in this game at the level of viciousness that you see in wow, and overcutting is a much stronger strategy in swtor as well. You are penalized so heavily for cancelling your auction that people don't bother and if you are silly enough to try, there are AH PVP tricks to play that will make you loose all your profits in cancel fees before you realize that you are being played. Also, crafting stuff takes so long that people don't have the infinite stocks to post, post, post. The 50 auction per toon limit stops that anyway, unless you are silly enough to cancel, which brings us back to where we started.

 

No, for all the misery that the devs have laid on us in other areas, that specific problem has been handled quite neatly in this game.

[Nehril]

the big issue i have with the randomness of reverse engineering is that one person may get the right (popular) item schematic on the first few pulls, whereas i might take 20-50+ tries to get anything.

 

so the other dude spends a few thousand and is on the market with the item, and i spent 200,000 to get on the market, and i have to price compete with that guy. i might never make my money back. and i definitely will never get that time back.

 

given enough crafters, these "good stat" items are no longer rare. once one person has the schematic, he can crank out as many as he can get materials for and its on the market. it doesnt work to create artificial scarcity.

 

secondly, big time crafter people tend to be of a certain type. Organized, systemized... you know what i mean. we want control and we want to run our business.

 

but the total randomness removes almost all control from the people who are the core market makers, and as we can all see its massively frustrating. not hard, not "rare", just not-fun and ratherdosomethingelse-inducing.

 

let me pick what i'm going to craft based on what i think the market needs, and give me SOME idea of what it will cost to get there. a little randomness is ok, but this 200 streak of no re only to get some ridiculous item that cannot be used by anyone (+shield on an assault cannon. commandos cant slot shields in their off hand) is major suck.

[Vexera]

There is nothing more frustrating than a crafting system that relies on RNG. They current system is really, really terrible. I PvP a ton while I level so I try my utmost to keep my gear up to date with my level using Cybertech. To proc a blue Armoring mod, I am REing 30-40 green mods. I can no longer afford it since the purchased crafting item is 200 credits a pop. I need 2 to make 1 green item.

 

I would not mind putting in more time for better quality recipes, either through questing or running FPs.

 

We put in the time and credits to level our professions, so we should see guaranteed results.

[adrianvacaliuc]

but the total randomness removes almost all control from the people who are the core market makers, and as we can all see its massively frustrating. not hard, not "rare", just not-fun and ratherdosomethingelse-inducing.

 

This whole post is very well said, and 100% true, but this part in particular is especially true.

 

Strong economies tend to be driven by 2 or 3 mega players that are exactly like you describe. Yes, they get mega rich, but they also provide a vast market of reasonably priced goods that everyone enjoys. Capitalism at its absolute finest. Unfortunately, the RE system as it stands places blood curdling roadblocks to establish a strong market.

 

Agreed, the current RE system is not how you establish artificial scarcity. The best way to handle that problem is to stop companion craft progress while logged out. Before people have a heart attack, you would have to do this with matching substantial buffs to the RE proc rate, a RE revamp, and a massive nerf to craft times.

 

I would live a world where craft times take a 10th as long but I have to be logged in for my companions to do stuff.

 

Or don't change the system and give me part fragments on every RE that I turn in for patterns that I choose. WE ALREADY HAVE THIS SYSTEM IN PLACE FOR COMPANION GIFTS FOLKS!

 

Or make me combine a fixed number or fragments for a random pattern discovery if you insist on having some element of RNG. That would give crafting a kind of rift-y feel, but that was a pretty reasonable system.

 

Any one of those would make things better. Lots of the Tier 2 stuff is super nice. The right mastercraft piece is BiS while leveling. Something like that being in game and effectively not at the same time because of the massive time and money sink, well, really, really sucks.

[Nehril]

i actually like that companions can grind away while logged out. id even like to be able to queue missions too. it means i can play the game and not have to stand still in a corner crafting like in other games... its genius. queueing missions means i dont have to stop mid-pvp to send another guy out so as to not lose login time.

 

one way to introduce some control into the process is to have a base item (green) schematic for every possible combination of stats. levelling up the item would then be linear on that path.

 

i.e. start with green +crit gloves -> blue +crit gloves -> purple +crit gloves. if i wanted something else, id purchase a different base item. youd have to match this with a better sort and search pane for purchasing base item schematics and for looking at what i can craft. purple craft materials would still be the limiting resource so it wont be a runaway gear inflation (some are pretty expensive/hard to get). along with an increasing chance for RE on every pull (which would remove the potential 200x resource required disparity between crafters) and now i can run a business thats profitable.

 

that lets me look at the market, and if +crit/+power is saturated, maybe i see an opportunity for soloist-friendly +crit and +presence for the loner dps and his tank pet. or whatever else i might want. so i'll keep doing it because i want that swank speeder i saw on the auction for myself.

 

as this would lead to a wider selection on the market, conversely if im experimenting with a weirder build (dps guardian? hybrid commando?) i would have a better chance at being able to get gear tailored for what im trying to do. because someone would make money giving me what i want.

 

ive trialled a few low level blues for stuff like that and i know theres a market for it, and id love to be able to provide a suite of products for all levels in certain build spaces, but i literally can't. its too expensive and frustrating.

Edited February 28, 2012 by Nehril