Sorc/Sages mitigate more damage than tanks.

[mufutiz]

Sorc/Sage is the real deal, the full package, no questions asked.

 

The only reason not to roll the class is if you insist on being able to stealth.

[SWEEPERR]

on top of 75-100k protection

 

Do you even know what you're talking about?

Protection?

 

....No.

 

Before you start calling for nerfs, first of all...learn how to read a WZ scoreboard.

 

Second, everyone crying the most here - learn your class. It is blatantly evident that many posters here do not even know their own class. (armor....etc.)

 

Thirdly.

Yes...it IS difficult to kill a Sorc healer. However there aren't annyy viable hybrid healing/dps specs. If THREE DPS are working on killing ONE Sorc DPS, they're doing it wrong. Very....veryy...very wrong.

Edited January 24, 2012 by SWEEPERR

[Valdshade]

I have listen to this alot in vent and then watched for it in hutball I belive what you are seeing is a a tank spec assain being shiled by a socrr/sage or thats what i have been watching latelly a combat log would help to be sure thou

[Sookster]

HAHA the OP has me in stitches. Have you never seen how long a geared out powertech lasts?????

 

^ this, PT's are sick, but that's due to the ion gas cylinder that adds +60% extra armor (which actually seems to work in pvp) and even more dangerous with expertise.

 

There are indeed way too many sorc/sages, at least on my server, I try not to waste big attacks (that has long CD) on sorc/sages with their bubbles up but they usually just force run away when they know they're screwed. They're pretty much the swiss knife of classes with just about every tool available.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Sookster

[Steww]

The problem is the broken tanking for tank classes. I agree, in principle, with what you say but it doesn't happen like that with the current mechanics. Tanks (from the perspective of a Vanguard, shield spec (my main)) are useless. One of their primary damage mitigation factors is their reactive shield (not the skill one) which as it currently stands is as good as useless because it only procs on basic melee and ranged attacks, and the very occasional skill. The vast majority of the skill attacks you will sustain will not activate you shield (defence chance is the same) therefore, the tank class has no tank. Well, no more than a commando anyway. Match that with their reduced DPS (which I expect for a tank build), they are nothing more than an easy kill for most enemies.

 

The most effective spec I have seen seems to be a bit of a hybrid with most into the Tactics tree, going toward a DPS build. Why should a tank have to spec DPS to have a useful role in a WZ?

 

 

 

How, when you look at the details above? Most tanks will go from full health to dead in less time than the duration of a Sorcs shield. Expertise helps, but it only brings their tanking on par with a DPS spec Commando / Merc unless they have lots of expertise gear and being attacked by someone with very little.

 

 

 

This. I agree, as a Vanguard in tank gear you should last a good bit longer than a similarly geared DPS spec.

 

 

 

The can put their shield on other players = protection.

 

 

 

This is very true, guard itself is useful in that respect. Easy solution is as you say, knockback between them or just focus the tank themselves as they will go down very quick, so no more guard.

 

I actually see a lot of Vanguards who DPS spec and still use Ion Cell to get the best of both worlds and they seem to do well.

[bakedpotter]

I don't get it. A *DPS* spec'd sorc/sage can mitigate more damage done to them than a tank in PVP with the way shields currently scale.

 

Why is this? Why is a sorc/sage practically unkillable while my tank melts in a matter of seconds? Why are sorc/sages able to tank in PVP better than actual tanks?

 

The way the shield scales is crazy at the moment. Seriously. Something has to give. Either nerf it or make it a talent in the healing tree high up.

 

 

There's absolutely no reason that the 'glass cannon' should be mitigating more damage than a tank in PVP. With shields, sorc/sages can mitigate up to 15k damage vs a single person, in a single fight (multiple shields). When you see 3 dps unable to kill a sorc, yet the same 3 dps can drop your tank in under 4 seconds.. well; something is wrong.

 

All this on the class with the highest mobility in the game, the most group utility, some of the highest healing and high damage.

 

See the problem here? They get the best of ALL THREE WORLDS.

 

They mitigate massive damage like tanks.

They heal AMAZING amounts like healers.(I see sorcs regularly get 300-400k healing, no other class comes close)

They go AMAZING dps like DPS.

 

They are the holy trinity all in one (in pvp)

 

On top of aoe knockbacks, friendly pulls, etc etc etc...and people wonder why there's so many? Want to tank in PVP? Roll a sorc. Want to heal in PVP? Roll a sorc. Want to DPS in PVP?.............roll a sorc

 

come on this is seriously ridiculous

 

You are a joke. sorcs can not tank anything at all and one dps can maul an average sorceror. Just because you and your terrible terrible teammates cant 3 v 1 an obviously better player, you call for the nerf. break out the slip n slide, plenty of tears for you and your other two dps group to have a pity party for yourselves.

[mufutiz]

They're pretty much the swiss knife of classes with just about every tool available.

 

they can't stealth.

 

That's it. True story.

[Kholvan]

It's absurd that a class that is ranged also gets a sprint, and to top the sprint 2 roots to choose 1 oh and a stun oh and an interrupt oh and pointless to go healing because dpsed spec heals just as much

 

Not true.

 

The best heal is 21 points into the healing tree, and really requires 2 points in the 25-point upgrade in order to make it rock. The only AOE heal is 31 points in.

 

Even the instant small HOT is 11 points in, and it's pretty poor without another 2 point upgrade. Without these 13 points, the best heal a DPS spec can have is a 2.5s cast time - and even that required 2 points in the heal tree to take down from 3.0s. A 3000 point heal that has a 3s cast time is not overpowered.

 

It is true that a healer spec tanks pretty well in PvP - they don't really mitigate the damage as much as repair it. And immobile healers do a heck of a job at drawing aggro from players.

[Eclipso]

I can think of many, many other adjustments that need to be made before this. You sure your just not tired of seeing 12 billion of them in WZ's and on Ilum?

[Northwynde]

Armor mitigates almost everything in this game. The common mistake people make is thinking lightning bypasses armor. It does not, because lightnign is energy damage, not elemental damage. Armor-bypassing attacks are very rare in PvP.

 

Armor is the best mitigation tool a tank has, that and stacking endurance. The problem is that a dps spec PT can achieve relatively similar levels of mitigation while increasing damage output 3 fold. This is the disparity that most tanks are complaining about.

[Sylee]

I have listen to this alot in vent and then watched for it in hutball I belive what you are seeing is a a tank spec assain being shiled by a socrr/sage or thats what i have been watching latelly a combat log would help to be sure thou

 

 

This. I'm a heal specced sorc, and I run with a tank specced assasin. With his guard on me and my shield/heals on him, we do very, very well together. Especially in pugs. Send us up against a premade team that knows what they are doing, however, and we can get rolled fairly easily.

 

And, I have never, ever, ever gotten a single point for protectioin. I wish. Then I might actually get some more medals.

[JJJShmidt]

I couldnt agree with the OP more, sorc is rediculous how much they can mitigate while still being a "hybrid" character.... who decided to make it that their healing tree can also turn around and dps to their hearts content without any repercussion. When I want to heal people on my BH I have to sacrifice the ability to do dps by loading up my heat to heal someone. Once im full heat im useless. Sorc is casting abilities non stop with no repercussion. This is ruining pvp, you just cant kill anyone who has a sorc around then because of all the shields and healing they can do. On top of that they can just shield and put their hot on themselves and then just nuke you down while you try and pop their shields. This is just the cherry on top of their survival toolbox. If you think stealthers are the only ones able to get out of a fight, omg SORCS are the KINGS of running away from fights!!!! snared and surrounded by enemies? ohhh just pop your sprint and your out of range of every single person who was on top of you before. Then they get force pull to allow them to make up the hardest to kill huttball team ever! Please rethink the way the sorc is allowed these abilities. As it stands right now their shield is waaaaaay too powerful and it is a baseline ability.

[sailorstars]

I couldnt agree with the OP more, sorc is rediculous how much they can mitigate while still being a "hybrid" character.... who decided to make it that their healing tree can also turn around and dps to their hearts content without any repercussion. When I want to heal people on my BH I have to sacrifice the ability to do dps by loading up my heat to heal someone. Once im full heat im useless. Sorc is casting abilities non stop with no repercussion. This is ruining pvp, you just cant kill anyone who has a sorc around then because of all the shields and healing they can do. On top of that they can just shield and put their hot on themselves and then just nuke you down while you try and pop their shields. This is just the cherry on top of their survival toolbox. If you think stealthers are the only ones able to get out of a fight, omg SORCS are the KINGS of running away from fights!!!! snared and surrounded by enemies? ohhh just pop your sprint and your out of range of every single person who was on top of you before. Then they get force pull to allow them to make up the hardest to kill huttball team ever! Please rethink the way the sorc is allowed these abilities. As it stands right now their shield is waaaaaay too powerful and it is a baseline ability.

 

Which class foes the sorce/ sage beat in 1v1 or is it all of them

[Zaodon]

I don't get it. A *DPS* spec'd sorc/sage can mitigate more damage done to them than a tank in PVP with the way shields currently scale.

 

I can defeat this argument in 3 words: "bubble the tank"

 

/thread

[IronKnighty]

Its Funny how all the sorc/sage players deny the obvious, you a master of everything class and pretty much better at them all then the dedicated classes.

 

Best DPS

 

Best healing

 

subpar tanking compared to tank but really? a mage tanking..come on!

 

Dont deny they arnt OP coz they are and if u do deny it your either a blind moron or just to affraid to actually have to use "skill" in pvp. I have a sage and its low lv yes but my shield absorbs far more then 2.5k damage or even 4k damage ill tell you that now it feels like its 10-20k damage and it normally stays up pretty dam long, just long enough for me to sit and heal or simply kill who ever is hitting me with my 35m range...(which btw is a joke "sniper longest range class" what BS is that) AS for tanks well i gave up on a guard in pvp u just die like a normal dps and im speced into tanking, like others said the shield doesnt work and id love saber ward to be on a 20sec cd rather then a 3min...then we will see whos OP NOW!

 

 

simple fix to bubble is make it 3min cd and make it like the other shields where it only absorbs 50% damage, not 100% of all damage types..

 

 

The only reason i think the bubble is OP is the cd and how much they can simply spam it.

 

That and 100% damage immunity its like turning on God mode in games, easy legal cheat mode.

[Proppa]

IronKnighty, please lord. Get a clue?

 

I'm a HEAL spec Sorcerer, my heals go / barrier are useful. But my dps, highest I've had at valor 54, 90% champ gear, was about 1000, my chain lightning hits from 200, upto 600 on a total noob per pulse. My casted (i forget the name) hits for around 700 per 2s cast. My dot hits for around 300.

 

So even if I dotted you, then chain lightning'd you... I just did about 2k damage in what.... 4 seconds?

 

Whereas an Operative can stab me for 3k instantly, most melee classes hit me for 3k damage+ on their styles....

[jizerai]

Its Funny how all the sorc/sage players deny the obvious, you a master of everything class and pretty much better at them all then the dedicated classes.

 

Best DPS

 

Best healing

 

subpar tanking compared to tank but really? a mage tanking..come on!

 

Dont deny they arnt OP coz they are and if u do deny it your either a blind moron or just to affraid to actually have to use "skill" in pvp. I have a sage and its low lv yes but my shield absorbs far more then 2.5k damage or even 4k damage ill tell you that now it feels like its 10-20k damage and it normally stays up pretty dam long, just long enough for me to sit and heal or simply kill who ever is hitting me with my 35m range...(which btw is a joke "sniper longest range class" what BS is that) AS for tanks well i gave up on a guard in pvp u just die like a normal dps and im speced into tanking, like others said the shield doesnt work and id love saber ward to be on a 20sec cd rather then a 3min...then we will see whos OP NOW!

 

 

simple fix to bubble is make it 3min cd and make it like the other shields where it only absorbs 50% damage, not 100% of all damage types..

 

 

The only reason i think the bubble is OP is the cd and how much they can simply spam it.

 

That and 100% damage immunity its like turning on God mode in games, easy legal cheat mode.

 

Except they don't have the best DPS. They have good, sustainable ranged DPS yes, but it's not "the best".

 

They do probably have among the best healing out there. Except that I've seen Troopers and Scoundrels do a lot more healing then me - and I'm quite well geared. That depends on the player though. Their healing is good, and it's sustainable as well.

 

They drop like a rock in water though if they try to tank anything. Trust me on this one. If you're focusing on a Sorcerer, he will go down - unless he gets out of dodge, and quick. This is somewhat less true of a healer-spec:ed Sorcerer. They can manage to hold off 2-3 people for a while, but they'll still die quite fast if stunned/slowed/rooted correctly.

 

The shield is good. That it can be applied to others makes it a great tool. It's a very fast "heal" in dire circumstances to prevent someone's immediate death. But it's on a 20sec (17 if geared for it) cd on each individual - and 4.5 sec cast cooldown unless specced as a healer. It does not hold against several people banging their heads against it. Trust me on this.

 

With this in mind: the Sorcerer is a good class. A very good class in fact. But it is nowhere near the 2-button spam-fest that is Trooper/Bounty Hunter right now (if spec:ed Arsenal/Gunnery that is).

[Dominemesis]

nope a sorc/sage can mitigate a big opener and once that bubble is gone they don't mitigate crap anymore. That's the long and the short of it.

 

Heals are slow and interruptable, but work well if a tank is paired with them, guard/bubble they do wonders, but that requires tactics. ALOT of the healing done registers from shielding allies tho.

 

DPS the most bursty spec is lightning, which is crap burst compared to snipers, ops, mercs, basically everyone else. Sustained dps is madness and that allows for alot of dotem up, which never kills anyone, but keeps damage steady ticking.

 

The only thing I have experienced that is OP about sages/sorcs is their popularity, alot of people think they are cool.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Dominemesis

[Astricky]

Can't tell if the original post is serious. You can bubble once, maybe twice in a single fight. It absorbs 2500-3k damage each time, then you're standing on a caster wearing paper armor.

 

Also the shield absolutely does not count as protection. It counts as healing, and even then only if there is actual damage to absorb (i.e. I can't just put shields up on out of combat targets and get another 2500 healing done).

[Redderic]

COMPLETELY WRONG IN ALL REGARDS!

 

Mitigation works like a charm. play a light armor class then switch to a Heavy armor class and take some hits. the damage difference is HUGE.

 

Defense works perfectly fine. the only problem is that you have to seriously stack it. after 100% accuracy they start to reduce your defense chance. Most people only get to 100% so your 20%+ defense still stays at 20%+.

 

Shield chance and absorb work but only against 1/5 of the attacks in the game. It severely reduces a shadow/assassins dps since most of our attacks are weapon dmg. it needs a re-work to add a chance vs all types of attacks rather than just the white dmg ones.

 

i found that taking all of the +shield chance and +absorb chance mods out of armor and stacking +defense chance or any type of dps increase greatly enhances us. High defense and you will block,parry and resist a lot more attacks. At one point i was sitting at close to 35-40% and with a healer would never go down.

[BegaTasty]

Your wrong, I dont know how els to say it. I am one of the few who play a pure tank "defense spec" guardian and theres no way they can out tank me. Try leaving a battleground an fight in proper pvp occasionally an you will see it.

[Sheneria]

I don't get it. A *DPS* spec'd sorc/sage can mitigate more damage done to them than a tank in PVP with the way shields currently scale.

 

Why is this? Why is a sorc/sage practically unkillable while my tank melts in a matter of seconds? Why are sorc/sages able to tank in PVP better than actual tanks?

 

The way the shield scales is crazy at the moment. Seriously. Something has to give. Either nerf it or make it a talent in the healing tree high up.

 

 

There's absolutely no reason that the 'glass cannon' should be mitigating more damage than a tank in PVP. With shields, sorc/sages can mitigate up to 15k damage vs a single person, in a single fight (multiple shields). When you see 3 dps unable to kill a sorc, yet the same 3 dps can drop your tank in under 4 seconds.. well; something is wrong.

 

All this on the class with the highest mobility in the game, the most group utility, some of the highest healing and high damage.

 

See the problem here? They get the best of ALL THREE WORLDS.

 

They mitigate massive damage like tanks.

They heal AMAZING amounts like healers.(I see sorcs regularly get 300-400k healing, no other class comes close)

They go AMAZING dps like DPS.

 

They are the holy trinity all in one (in pvp)

 

On top of aoe knockbacks, friendly pulls, etc etc etc...and people wonder why there's so many? Want to tank in PVP? Roll a sorc. Want to heal in PVP? Roll a sorc. Want to DPS in PVP?.............roll a sorc

 

come on this is seriously ridiculous

 

yes its called guard on the sorc/sage and its called gear, which you obviously lack while the sage and his tank have it.

 

don't whine if you have no clue about the class you fight and the ones you play and stop pulling numbers out of your rear.

 

Big L2P issue you have there.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Sheneria

[Yozbick]

I don't get it. A *DPS* spec'd sorc/sage can mitigate more damage done to them than a tank in PVP with the way shields currently scale.

 

An Agent/Smuggler mitigates even more damage when they are in cover. They are, in fact, the toughest thing I have found to kill in PVP unless you can CC them out of cover.

[Naselus]

COMPLETELY WRONG IN ALL REGARDS!

 

Mitigation works like a charm. play a light armor class then switch to a Heavy armor class and take some hits. the damage difference is HUGE.

 

Defense works perfectly fine. the only problem is that you have to seriously stack it. after 100% accuracy they start to reduce your defense chance. Most people only get to 100% so your 20%+ defense still stays at 20%+.

 

Shield chance and absorb work but only against 1/5 of the attacks in the game. It severely reduces a shadow/assassins dps since most of our attacks are weapon dmg. it needs a re-work to add a chance vs all types of attacks rather than just the white dmg ones.

 

i found that taking all of the +shield chance and +absorb chance mods out of armor and stacking +defense chance or any type of dps increase greatly enhances us. High defense and you will block,parry and resist a lot more attacks. At one point i was sitting at close to 35-40% and with a healer would never go down.

 

.... Anything that can't be shielded also can't be dodged, parried or shielded. So stacking defense instead of shields is utterly pointless for PvP, since literally every class has a number of abilities which will bypass it completely. Armour is mildly more useful, but the real point of the thread is that the main stats we tanks stack (def, shield, absorb) do nothing in PvP against most DPS classes main nukes.

[Whosthetank]

I'll chime in on this.

 

I'm a 550 expertise 54 valor 400 biochem sin. I can kill tanks easier than a good sorc/sage. Just saying.

 

im a 635 exp sin, 56 valor, 400, Synthweaving, see my stats are better then urs, all of them infact, so my opinion must matter more, thats why im telling u all of this!

 

(No joke about the stats tho heeheee)