Pawnzer Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 Let me start this post off by explaining that this not supposed to be a ‘rage’ post about the expertise system just the imbalances I have found with it compared to other stats and the way these imbalances play out. The problem I find is that there seems to be no significant diminishing returns for the Expertise stat. Following is a list of a few stats, the graph that the stat follows, and the R value to show how close the graph fit the data points (10-13 per stat.) Now here is what I found out. Expertise y = 0.0229x + 0.3329 R=.998 Critical y = -2E-05x2 + 0.0433x R=.9998 Surge y = -3E-10x4 + 5E-07x3 - 0.0004x2 + 0.2012x + 0.0166 R=1 Now you may be asking what this means, the expertise graph is linear, meaning a steadily increasing amount in the percentage that each point applies; but with crit and surge the more points you put into them the lower the benefit is. With the diminishing returns being as low as it is and the way the stat applies in game that can lead to several disparities in damage output. For example a player in full Centurion gear (lowest of the three gear sets) has 469 expertise which translates roughly to 10.5%. Now this is a 10.5% “Damage boost on players” and a “Damage reduction from players” leading to a 21% damage gap between people with little to no PvP gear. Excluding the benefits from the other stats, you can start off a fight automatically doing 20% more damage to someone than what they can do to you; with an advantage like that my 5 year old brother could manage not to lose. Now I understand getting expertise gear will negate this advantage I am pointing this problem out for those who just hit 50, have bad luck getting gear, or simply only like to PvP every now and again. Now this is where I leave this question up to everyone else, “What should be done?” Should the expertise system be scrapped, unchanged or just simply reworked? I believe it should be reworked; PvP gear should give you an edge in PvP but I feel a gap in damage as large as this leads to gear deciding the victor and not the skill of the player. Feel free to post your ideas on this matter I would like to know if I’m the only one who feels this way.
MetalT Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 Expertise is not the problem. Expertise needs to be in the game or raiding will the the requirement to pvp. The problem is that it takes too long for a fresh 50 to obtain a respectable gear set so that they do not get crushed in pvp. The pvp token/commendation system needs to be reworked...not expertise.
Kyzr Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 Expertise is not the problem. Expertise needs to be in the game or raiding will the the requirement to pvp. The problem is that it takes too long for a fresh 50 to obtain a respectable gear set so that they do not get crushed in pvp. The pvp token/commendation system needs to be reworked...not expertise. Actually, if you took Exp off PvP gear, and made PvP/PvE gear identical, save looks, why would one require the other? The problem comes from how technically easy PvE grind is in comparison to PvP (in general). If both used a streamlined token system (like the new/current PvP Battlemaster system), then there'd be no difference. Unfortunately, this would narrow character development paths down from 2 to 1, which is why you're unlikely to ever see this change. Personally, I dinged 50 on a Monday, and had PvP'd enough for 1 Champ bag prior. So on Monday/Tuesday, I did 4 dailies, 4 weeklies, and had an extra bag, for 17 total bags. In 2 days I went from 0 Exp to around 250. My timing helped with that, but the point is (granted with RNG, some luck), it's pretty easy to gear in t1/t2 gear. I think it's silly you're more likely to gear out in t2 before t1, but that's a seperate issue.
Elysion Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 Remove expertise stat Add a 10% player damage bonus/danage reduction set bonus for all pvp sets Add a green level 50 pvp set you buy with credits Now all 'pvp armor' gives the same pvp bonus You grind better pvp armors the same reason you grind better pve armors, just to get better attributes/defense
Dalnar Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 Expertise needs to be in the game or raiding will the the requirement to pvp. 1000x repeated lie is still lie.
Elysion Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 And while we are at it. Make the armoring mod in the top teir pve stuff identical to the armoring mod in the top teir pvp stuff, only have a 10% pve damage bonus/reduction property. Make a fully moddable set of 'pvp armor', that you can take that pve mod out off and stick into your pvp armor. In this way the base stats of both pvp and pve sets would be the same, the pvp set would give you 10% bonuses vs players, the pve sets would give you 10% bonuses vs npcs, and i can combine the two and have 10% bonus vs everything and not have to manage two different armor sets.
Pawnzer Posted January 23, 2012 Author Posted January 23, 2012 The moddable gear concept is good, but let’s have the bonuses be based on the role the gear is meant to match. For example; DPS could have an additional 1% crit on all players or NPCs (this could be on the armoring item enhancement) with all implants and earpieces increasing damage done to players/NPCs by 1% . Tank classes would have damage reduced by 1% from players/NPCs on their armoring, implants and earpieces. Healers would be similar to tanks but be increasing healing done instead of damage reduction. These would give players the ability to have an advantage in pvp or pve whichever they decided to dedicate themselves to or have a set of armor that is somewhat beneficial to both areas. This would also allow us to make our characters more customizable due to having the ability to use the modifications in the pvp gear unlocked be transferred to other modifiable armor of our choosing.
Rezz Posted January 23, 2012 Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) Ranked PvP will fix a little bit the problem. As you start you will play vs worst player (even if they have the gear avantage you will win). Then you will gear up until you catch the top ranking. For the PvP gear itself. I have less HP in pvp then PvE gear. That mean your 20% more domage isnt right. I have around 2k less hp in PvP. (Im full champion and still have less HP in pvp). Just on a side note, I still play in full PvE gear (for fun, big crits vs 0% expertise player) in pvp and I dont really see any big problem when I'm in 1v1 situation vs a fully champion equipement player. Here are some stats: I play a sage. PvE gear: Full buff 90% surge 35% crit 1829 willpower 470 power 1218 force power 781 bonus domage PvP gear: 82% surge 31% crit 1550 willpower 250 power 1218 force power 629 bonus domage But the pvp gear have the 10% expertise at the cost of around 8% hp and all of th eabove stats. So I think the expertise isnt a problem at all, you need PvP gear as a reward of PvP and you don't want PvE gear from raid being better then PvP gear as this gear is not really accessible to everyone. The problem between new lvl 50 and full geared PvP player will be the same even if you remove the expertise. I dont think a fresh level 50 with 12k hp can kill my Sage with 18k HP and the above PvE gear/stats. I do think the random system beind the champion gear is not really good and should be replaced by something similar to the battlemaster system. Probably with less chance to find a commandation since you get more champion bag per week and you can even buy them. Edited January 23, 2012 by Rezz
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