Dasffion Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 So many people are misunderstanding what he is saying. He's asking if this game supports microtransactions, and he's making the statement that any game that supports microtransactions is not a 'true' subscription based MMO. That's all. That's what we thought at first, and were confused because WoW doesn't do microtransactions except for a couple items that have nothing to do with content or gameplay, but he's not talking about that. He's talking about expansions. Sorry for not being clear enough, i'm pretty bad at explaining. My point is that if the game has a subscription, you should have access to all the content, even the expansion packs. That explains it pretty well. If SWTOR will follow WoW's way of charging for everything, i'll stop subscribing :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dasffion Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) Is the content you're given in wow really worth 360 $? Was wrath of the lich king worth 400 dollars? Sure, you might say raiding made it better. But thats because you played with friends. We don't need to overpay this, just look at the video, the server costs for NCsoft are 4 million (per month i think) for all their MMOs, they don't need to charge for everything. But they will as long as the people pay. IT'S A BUISNESS. THEY NEED TO MAKE MONEY. Seriously. And yes, it's worth the cost. As I said $15 a month is the cheapest cost of endless entertainment you'll find anywhere short of a ball and cup game. It's worth it to me at least, it's obviously not to you and it's not going to change so just go ahead and unsubscribe. Also, mr hutt guy who called me a troll, GW wasn't a subscription based mmo, it was buy to play, and it sold enough games and is still making enough money that the servers are still online. Guildwars has microtransactions. That's how free to play games support themselves. Edited January 23, 2012 by Dasffion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evileeyore Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 And that's ridiculous. Your monthly subscription fees are paying for the maintenance and upkeep on the game servers, bandwidth and overhead associated with running 1,000s of servers across the globe. In WOW 1$ of every subscription goes towards upkeep, 14$ goes into Blizz execs pockets. Expansions pay for them themselves with the box costs. Monthly subs are pure profit for the company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chlorosprite Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I think BioWare has stated that all further updates & expansions will be available free of charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidchel Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) Server maintenance isn't the only cost involved with maintaining a true MMO, which I really don't consider Guild Wars to be since all of the content is -instanced-, or at least it was when I played it. GW can afford to turn a profit without a subscription because 1) the initial cost of the game is significantly higher than other games 2) their server loads are much less complicated with people only running into each other in cities and no need to relay info on random spawns to every computer of every character in a given area 3) they have a significantly smaller player base and thus fewer people for their customer support 4) they lack regular content patches in favor of more frequent expansions. Yeah, you don't have to pay $15/month. Instead you pay $80 every six months for a new box for two years, and then patiently wait for the sequel while getting zilch to tide you over. Though if there have been content patches since Eye of the North, please feel free to correct me. I never bothered to get any of the expansions. Edited January 23, 2012 by Fidchel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aringoth Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I don't know of a single paid subscription based MMO that did not charge for an expansion at one point or another. Hey, I could be wrong, but I am not aware of any myself. Some examples. Final Fantasy, WoW, Everquest 1 and 2, an old one most might not have heard of Neocron, Planetside, City of Heros, and there are many more that I cannot think off the top of my head right now. Please take off the rose colored glasses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tadins Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 I don't know of a single paid subscription based MMO that did not charge for an expansion at one point or another. Hey, I could be wrong, but I am not aware of any myself. Some examples. Final Fantasy, WoW, Everquest 1 and 2, an old one most might not have heard of Neocron, Planetside, City of Heros, and there are many more that I cannot think off the top of my head right now. Please take off the rose colored glasses. Yes , the old games had reason to charge so much, they had to struggle with upkeep. And to that other guy, Guild Wars 2 is gonna be open world, we'll see what'll happen then. The reason you don't know of a subscription based only MMOs is because WoW set the trend to charge everything, and people are finnaly getting tired of that, and following Guild Wars to the future, where they don't force you to pay for everything. ( ) Check out the video i've linked several times, it really is an eye opener. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViskarNogame Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Is the content you're given in wow really worth 360 $? Was wrath of the lich king worth 400 dollars? Sure, you might say raiding made it better. But thats because you played with friends. We don't need to overpay this, just look at the video, the server costs for NCsoft are 4 million (per month i think) for all their MMOs, they don't need to charge for everything. But they will as long as the people pay. Also, mr hutt guy who called me a troll, GW wasn't a subscription based mmo, it was buy to play, and it sold enough games and is still making enough money that the servers are still online. You bought -expansions-. You're giving your opinions on what an "MMO" is. F2P MMOs always fail and lack a player base because they lack the true ability to put our constant fresh content. MMOs involve a monthly fee, updates, content, and expansions which you purchase. I'd rather pay $15 for a huge game with fixes/new concepts/ideas. All of my friends and I playED Guild Wars. We don't anymore. It gets stale after awhile, and without more expansions to buy, they lack funding for new patches/content. P.S. You should read more on Nexon NC, ANet etc because even your very, very, limited "I think" math is -way- off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aringoth Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) Yes , the old games had reason to charge so much, they had to struggle with upkeep. And to that other guy, Guild Wars 2 is gonna be open world, we'll see what'll happen then. The reason you don't know of a subscription based only MMOs is because WoW set the trend to charge everything, and people are finnaly getting tired of that, and following Guild Wars to the future, where they don't force you to pay for everything. ( ) Check out the video i've linked several times, it really is an eye opener. Since Everquest was out before WoW... you are wrong. Anyway, I don't care about some guy's inane and very likely inaccurate ranting about how I decide to spend my money. My money, my choice in what I do with it. Don't like it, don't pay for it, don't get the service. I support the business, I pay the fee. Edited January 23, 2012 by Aringoth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViskarNogame Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Yes , the old games had reason to charge so much, they had to struggle with upkeep. And to that other guy, Guild Wars 2 is gonna be open world, we'll see what'll happen then. The reason you don't know of a subscription based only MMOs is because WoW set the trend to charge everything, and people are finnaly getting tired of that, and following Guild Wars to the future, where they don't force you to pay for everything. ( ) Check out the video i've linked several times, it really is an eye opener. WoW was the 7th MMO to charge a monthly fee. You're becoming more and more of a troll every post, haha. And you'll find -if- GW2 DOES take off, it will eventually find ways to charge. Even if "your" math was right (With it's "$1 per person" math) then if you have 9 million people playing - Where's that "$9 mill" coming from? You can't be that ignorant, haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tadins Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 You bought -expansions-. You're giving your opinions on what an "MMO" is. F2P MMOs always fail and lack a player base because they lack the true ability to put our constant fresh content. MMOs involve a monthly fee, updates, content, and expansions which you purchase. I'd rather pay $15 for a huge game with fixes/new concepts/ideas. All of my friends and I playED Guild Wars. We don't anymore. It gets stale after awhile, and without more expansions to buy, they lack funding for new patches/content. P.S. You should read more on Nexon NC, ANet etc because even your very, very, limited "I think" math is -way- off. If an mmo fails or not, it has nothing to do with the fact that it is F2P or not. It depends on how they develop it, if the don't update it, yes, it will fail. MMOs do have updates all the time, bug fixes, tweaks, but why should we pay for their mistakes? In every other genre, they have to fix the bugs for free. We don't need to throw money down the executive's throats just to hope we're given enough things. Of course guild wars doesn't get new content made, they're already making guild wars 2. They have for a while now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tzian Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 if i add up my sub costs and the cost of wow's wrath of the lich king game box, then consider that i played that content for 2yrs that equates to just under 40p per day, as someone already said thats dirt cheap entertainment. it costs something like £2.75 just to hire a dvd out for the evening and that only lasts you what 2-3hrs, cinema tickets are like £6-10 again only for a few hours and you have travel costs to get there i just do not see how anyone can call this a rip off or think its too expensive, but if you dont agree with the way they do it, then find something that you do agree with, me personally i prefer sub based models to f2p models, thats my personal choice, and you have yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannomite Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I think charging for expansions is fine, but the problem is that to play WoW for example, as a brand new player... you need to buy original, TBC and Wrath of the Lich King, so you can buy and play Cataclysm. Buying the newest expansion should automatically fill in the gaps provided you have the original. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViskarNogame Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 If an mmo fails or not, it has nothing to do with the fact that it is F2P or not. It depends on how they develop it, if the don't update it, yes, it will fail. MMOs do have updates all the time, bug fixes, tweaks, but why should we pay for their mistakes? In every other genre, they have to fix the bugs for free. We don't need to throw money down the executive's throats just to hope we're given enough things. Of course guild wars doesn't get new content made, they're already making guild wars 2. They have for a while now. When they were making EQ2, EQ still got new content. When they were making D3, SC2, WoW expansions, and Project: Titan, WoW still got new content. Hell, even Nine Swords got updates when they were making Granado Espada and those are two F2P games! I watched your video BTW. My favorite part was when he high-lights the "product cost" and separated it into 20 million a month. It's PROBABLY only that. Probably. Go get the Q1 - Q4 PDFs and read through 'em. You'll start to understand the true monthly cost. (Because employees aren't free. Taxes aren't free. Developers aren't free. Hell, even creating the box sets aren't free.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dasffion Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Why on earth was this moved to New Player Help? If anywhere it belongs in General Discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ViskarNogame Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Why on earth was this moved to New Player Help? If anywhere it belongs in General Discussion. Welcome to the wonderful world of BW/EA Moderators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tadins Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 When they were making EQ2, EQ still got new content. When they were making D3, SC2, WoW expansions, and Project: Titan, WoW still got new content. Hell, even Nine Swords got updates when they were making Granado Espada and those are two F2P games! I watched your video BTW. My favorite part was when he high-lights the "product cost" and separated it into 20 million a month. It's PROBABLY only that. Probably. Go get the Q1 - Q4 PDFs and read through 'em. You'll start to understand the true monthly cost. (Because employees aren't free. Taxes aren't free. Developers aren't free. Hell, even creating the box sets aren't free.) First of all, im not an expert on all things guild wars does. But those other games all have different teams working on them. I'm not saying anything is free, what i am saying is that they can manage with just a subscription fee, or just by selling the game and some expansion packs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidchel Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Hokay, looked at your video again, and paused it on the quarterly reports this guy points to for the server maintenance costs, specifically Activision's report. He is ignoring -all the other costs- associated with the company. Costs of making the games, costs of IP rights, costs of development, costs of marketing, costs of royalties, development, and general administration. Yes, receptionists need to get paid, too. This is including games other than WoW, but you can bet that total MMO costs are spread out over the other categories as well. And if a company is going to make money, you had better believe that they're going to hedge bets and charge for a large profit on games that are regular cash cows like successful MMOs to cover for all their flops. Look at their subscription revenues, which are $378 million. It's about 1/3 of their total income, and also includes all licensing for toys and other associated royalty income. I'm willing to bet WoW licensing is just as if not more lucrative than the subscription fees, so let's say half of that third is pure subscription fee income. So, for $189 million in income over three months, they have an operating cost of about $75 million, bumped up a smidge for the receptionists and execs and marketing and such that isn't directly related to the cost of WoW but certainly goes into the support of the game, and I think I'm truly lowballing that one. After taxes, the total income for the company is $335 million for three months. Wait....the total income for the company is -less than- the revenues for subscriptions and licensing from one MMO?! Oh yeah, them video game companies have got us over a barrel and are stealing money from our pockets with their unreasonable profits. Sheesh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dasffion Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I'm not saying anything is free, what i am saying is that they can manage with just a subscription fee, or just by selling the game and some expansion packs. This is a HUGE assumption about something that you know nothing about. If you can get hard data about how much is spent and how much is earned then you might have a case, otherwise you're just blowing hot air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnnaEliz Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 An expansion pack is essentially another game in of itself. It's like a major patch on steroids. It changes the game tremendously. I do not understand why you think you should just get all this content at no charge... it is what it is. Don't like it, go play something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nethervoid Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 A game's price isn't determined by how much it costs to make. It's based on what people are willing to pay for it. This thread seems like a troll thread to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tadins Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 This is a HUGE assumption about something that you know nothing about. If you can get hard data about how much is spent and how much is earned then you might have a case, otherwise you're just blowing hot air. Guild wars, they've been operational for so many years now, not a single month of subscription. -_- Its like you're just ignoring some stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dasffion Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) Guild wars, they've been operational for so many years now, not a single month of subscription. -_- Its like you're just ignoring some stuff. You're ignoring the fact that Guild Wars has microtransactions that replace subscription costs. We're not talking about Guild wars or any other F2P game though, we're talking about P2P games. You said they can manage with just a subscription fee. Where are your numbers to back it up? How much do they spend on Property, taxes, employees, servers, electricity, ect. ect. ect.? Edited January 23, 2012 by Dasffion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidchel Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) Guild wars, they've been operational for so many years now, not a single month of subscription. -_- Its like you're just ignoring some stuff. And you're ignoring the fact that Guild Wars is an instanced multiplayer game as opposed to a true MMO that by your own admission hasn't had any new content since Eye of the North, which was released several -years- ago. Meanwhile, TOR has already had a content patch, even before my $15/month subscription kicked in. In the end, the two months I played GW cost me about as much as I've currently paid for TOR. Difference being, BW will continue to make money off of me and my subscription, because they've made a more interesting game, and will overall be a cheaper game for the amount of entertainment I will receive from it. Edited January 23, 2012 by Fidchel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tadins Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 You're ignoring the fact that Guild Wars has microtransactions that replace subscription costs. We're not talking about Guild wars or any other F2P game though, we're talking about P2P games. You said they can manage with just a subscription fee. Where are your numbers to back it up? How much do they spend on Property, taxes, employees, servers, electricity, ect. ect. ect.? Its still up, isnt it? That means its making enough to be maintained. And i never said i have anything against microtransactions. If people want to spend their money on name change/server transfer or other frill, then so be it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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