Bag RNG Has Got to Go

[revcornelius]

39 bags = 1 bracer, 2 relics and 3 boots. RNG is idiotic.

[TheRiddick]

I dont know what you guys are all complaining about, I get a piece in almost every bag, I have 11 belts, 5 bracers, and 6 gloves, wait... WHAT THE!!!

[gullfisk]

I dont know what you guys are all complaining about, I get a piece in almost every bag, I have 11 belts, 5 bracers, and 6 gloves, wait... WHAT THE!!!

 

Im rank 35 or so, and all ive gotten is a shield generator and 5 implants.

Rest of the bags, noooothing.

[Pulpp]

39 bags = 1 bracer, 2 relics and 3 boots. RNG is idiotic.

 

39 bags = 18 per week from dailies/weeklies, assuming you've bought ZERO bags, just around 2 weeks for you to collect 4 of your 14 champ set.

 

Drop wise, bags are offering you a 15% drop rate for champ.

 

More realistically, you are getting 2 additional bags per day if you are playing a few hours. So 4 bags per day, 32 per week means you are taking just over a week to knock out nearly a third of your tier 2 PVP gear set.

 

So a 3 week grind and a 15% drop rate is queing up the tears?

 

Thanks for the lulz folks.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Pulpp

[Nithryok]

I got BM on my toon about 3.5 weeks ago, from spending 2 weeks of grinding out WZ's playing 8-12 hours a day. and since I have hit BM wanna know how much loot I got for these wonderful RNG bags? 0 thats right I said 0, I took me from lvl 38 valor to 58 valor to gear out in full champ gear ( somthing like 200 grinded bags) which I was ok with because you can do WZ's to get the bags.

 

I have got so many champ bags and duplicates, I almost have a full off set of champ gear for tank spec.

 

What I am not ok with is doing BM dailys every day and getting no loot while people who have done the dailys for a week have 1/2 there BM gear now.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Nithryok

[savionen]

39 bags = 18 per week from dailies/weeklies, assuming you've bought ZERO bags, just around 2 weeks for you to collect 4 of your 14 champ set.

 

Drop wise, bags are offering you a 15% drop rate for champ.

 

More realistically, you are getting 2 additional bags per day if you are playing a few hours. So 4 bags per day, 32 per week means you are taking just over a week to knock out nearly a third of your tier 2 PVP gear set.

 

So a 3 week grind and a 15% drop rate is queing up the tears?

 

Thanks for the lulz folks.

 

1) Drop rate in general seems to be closer to 8%.

2) Republic can't do the Ilum dailies/weeklies on most servers.

3) Duplicates.

 

4 pieces of randomized gear that might be duplicates for 40 hours of work a week isn't that amazing. At a more accurate drop rate you're looking at 3 pieces a week, assuming you're in the middle range of the RNG, and not lucky or unlucky.

Edited January 24, 2012 by savionen

[JackKerras]

39 bags = 18 per week from dailies/weeklies, assuming you've bought ZERO bags, just around 2 weeks for you to collect 4 of your 14 champ set.

 

Drop wise, bags are offering you a 15% drop rate for champ.

 

More realistically, you are getting 2 additional bags per day if you are playing a few hours. So 4 bags per day, 32 per week means you are taking just over a week to knock out nearly a third of your tier 2 PVP gear set.

 

So a 3 week grind and a 15% drop rate is queing up the tears?

 

Thanks for the lulz folks.

 

Pulpp, I have an issue with you, but it's not that you don't like the idea.

 

The fact is, you don't want things to change. You are actively resisting a change that would normalize the rate of gain for PvP gear and have other beneficial effects on less-skilled or less-attention-endowed players. It would allow folks to feel as though they're working towards their gear instead of just randomly pulling some out of their bag... and yeah, the double-sub-10% RNG deal gets old really fast.

 

Even with (a generous) 10% chance to get a drop, and another (generous, considering that you have 14 slots to fill and not 10) 10% chance at a reasonably geared level to get a non-duplicate item, you're looking at a literal 1% chance to get an item you can use at some point.

 

Grinding rare drops from PvE mobs in WoW oftentimes has a similar drop rate. Only you can kill more than one or two mobs a day.

 

This is a poor chance to gear up, and some folks can roll d100 a hundred times and never see that 1 or 100. Sometimes people get it the first time. That is a ******** way to do gear when your performance in endgame PvP is -so dependent- on having gear.

 

You're saying 'Meh, it doesn't need to change', and I just don't think that's true. Apathy is basically a hundred percent effective at making things worse, not better.

 

Besides, don't you want queues to pop more? Don't you want more people to kill, more folks trying to get their gear, more folks interested in doing PvP for more than the one time per day, nine times a week that they need to get those bags? People will do a little and leave because it's not worth the twelve hours of Warzones it takes to buy big bags. They get 'em in a daily and they're done for the day. The more meat you throw in that grinder, the more Warzones pop, the more people are in 'em, the more fun everyone has.

 

You want an active, healthy, vibrant community for a game like this, not just a bunch of folks who log in, **** around with crafting until their queue pops, stay 'til they win a game, and go do something else.

 

No one gets excited about winning one game for a daily. That's a chore that you do every day or so. Watching your quest get closer and closer to done, knowing that that quest is your main-hand? That's leveling up, that's the kind of thing that keeps people's brains wrapped up in the tight little inescapable cycles that MMORPGs are so keen to create.

[Pulpp]

Pulpp, I have an issue with you, but it's not that you don't like the idea.

 

You are wrong. I can state clearly when the grind for MMO end game gear is measured in "weeks", the people whining that the system is unfair or too long are, well, stupid & shortsighted. All the numbers even out on the grind to valor 60, period.

 

They've already addressed the complaints that matter (BM) to a certain degree, by the introduction of tokens. At that point it matters, because your bags (lotto tickets) are limited regardless of playtime.

 

I don't think it's perfect, but the arguements against it can't be "waaaah, it's too long, player-X got all his before me, waaah" because it can be measured casually in WEEKS and such arguements are moronic.

 

With the sad state of pvp being what it is, BW has bigger concerns.

[JackKerras]

You are wrong. I can state clearly when the grind for MMO end game gear is measured in "weeks", the people whining that the system is unfair or too long are, well, stupid & shortsighted. All the numbers even out on the grind to valor 60, period.

 

They've already addressed the complaints that matter (BM) to a certain degree, by the introduction of tokens. At that point it matters, because your bags (lotto tickets) are limited regardless of playtime.

 

I don't think it's perfect, but the arguements against it can't be "waaaah, it's too long, player-X got all his before me, waaah" because it can be measured casually in WEEKS and such arguements are moronic.

 

With the sad state of pvp being what it is, BW has bigger concerns.

 

I have never said that the grind is too long or too short. I have specifically said on several occasions that the idea I put forth is flexible in terms of time needed for each step of the Warzone Mastery line. They're intentionally built so that it -can- take weeks for even dedicated players to get through, and they are absolutely not there to replace a current system, just to give folks a way to consistently, definitely get gear alongside of it.

 

I don't think the grind is too long. I think the current system rewards people too much for one thing (making an appearance) and too little for another (making an effort). It's not waaaah, they got it before me; EVERYONE has it before me, the character I play most right now is 45, but there are folks in my guild who got twelve separate pieces out of their first week's worth of bags and there are folks who got one piece six different times in their first week's worth. It's inconsistent as ****, it's unrewarding, it's *********** boring, and it's bad for the playerbase.

 

Also, the solution I put forth will -help- the sad state of PvP; that's the social engineering section of it I keep talking about.

 

The problem here is that you're making a hugely geared class of folks who happened to get lucky and leaving a massive gear gap between them and folks who are just hitting 50, which as I hear it told is very discouraging. I probably won't be discouraged; all I think about day in and out is murder, so I'll fight no matter -what- happens when I get to the point where it matters. But for now, it doesn't matter; I can fight a little or I can fight a lot and I'll find myself with essentially the same number of lottery tickets in the end. Maybe I get three or four bonus tickets; it's somewhere just a tad North of 11 hours of winning, 6-10 medal games to buy a bag, so sayeth mathematics, and I just don't have the inclination to pay twelve hours of my life for one more shot at a bag.

 

I'd probably play a lot more if I could see the gear I need coming down the pipe, but I can't. I just get bags. And they're full of ****-all more often than not.

 

More consistency, more rewards, more people staying in, more games popping, more population staying, more people having fun playing a game. It can only be a positive change, and even if it -doesn't- fix anything, it's such a simple (relatively speaking) way to do it that there's no huge wastage for BioWare in any case.

[TheRealTorrne]

Up to this point, I was convinced that I would never roll an alternate character. I decided that all of my time, effort and progression would go into my marauder until I couldn't make him any better. If something like a quest-based reward system was implemented, I would more than happily level an alt and get it some PVP gear. I couldn't even imaging trying to get the champ gear that my Marauder has onto another character through this lame lottery system. Plus, if that second character was to get a weapon before my first did, I would die a little inside. Edited January 24, 2012 by TheRealTorrne

[JackKerras]

A real progression system is the point.

 

I don't mind the bags. I just think they should be the bonus, not the core leveling mechanic. And this IS a sort of leveling, make no mistake.

[Kjetl]

1-10% doesn't break any build, it's just a focal point bads can cry about. The reality is you will be drowing in champ gear on the way valor rank 60, no matter how crappy your luck is. Stack up your oranges with duplicate champ mods and the ONLY, only gear disperity becomes expertise, as you start filling in slots.

 

Seriously, you folks will cry about anything. Waaah, I can't get my nearly full gear set earlier than 2 weeks of casual grinding, waaaah.

 

Let's see.

 

I'll take my oranges, which already have a 75-100 point armor deficit per piece, and add 1 mediocre mod, then go against someone in full champ gear with 9 or 10% expertise buffs, which is 10% more damage than I have, plus 10% damage reduction on top of that, and then it'll be okay (note I'm not even bringing up the set bonuses, nor the armor deficit).

 

Lawls.

 

And for your information, I've been 50 for a month and got my weapon yesterday (still don't have a full set).

 

It's know-it-all bads like you that think they can justify everything in the game that keeps games filled with bad designs.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Kjetl

[VonSoot]

Grind for more gear.

[Kjetl]

39 bags = 18 per week from dailies/weeklies, assuming you've bought ZERO bags, just around 2 weeks for you to collect 4 of your 14 champ set.

 

Drop wise, bags are offering you a 15% drop rate for champ.

 

More realistically, you are getting 2 additional bags per day if you are playing a few hours. So 4 bags per day, 32 per week means you are taking just over a week to knock out nearly a third of your tier 2 PVP gear set.

 

So a 3 week grind and a 15% drop rate is queing up the tears?

 

Thanks for the lulz folks.

 

So you play Empire?

 

If not, what server are you on that 2 hours gets you 1600 commendations?

 

At any rate, you are (in typical internet warrior fashion) completely ignoring the point. RNG != progression. Make it harder, fine, I don't care, just reward us for our actual work.

[Tycius]

Original thread moved -> http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=204881

 

 

Mercenary Warzone Mastery I:

 

DPS-focused Medals in Warzones: 22/36

Healing Medals in Warzones: 5/8

Complete Huttball passes, Ball Handler Kill Assists, Bomb Plants/Disarms, or Terminal Slices: 47/64

 

Sniper Warzone Mastery IV:

 

DPS-focused Medals in Warzones: 27/44

Solo Kill Medals in Warzones: 20/20

Complete Huttball passes, Ball Handler Kill Assists, Bomb Plants/Disarms, or Terminal Slices: 68/75

 

 

Brilliant suggestion. I've been playing for about a week, I've opened 7 bags, and recieved a chestpiece, offhand, and gloves. This simply isn't fair on other players, at all. And I would have actually complained if I didn't get those bags by being farmed by Republic players that outgear my faction (my server is one of the rare cases of having the opposite sterotype).

[Reverio]

dumb system i regret buying a 2month prepaid card for this damn game.

[Ruio]

Implement a straight forward, luck free system that has clear prices and clear compensation per bag!

 

'Luck' is part of Asian culture to the extent some Asians believe that what determines if you succeed in life or not is all luck based. While in the West it is believed that the only way you can succeed is by hard work. You may work hard and not succeed, but if you do not will defiantly not succeed.

 

What BW has implemented is offensive and disturbing to many Western players, linking hard work to luck is a terrible idea that saw every single Asian MMO flop in the West.

 

Aion had over a million subs at start then as people realized the game was Luck/RNG/Grind based left!

 

Yes, that's why the Asian stereotype has us working hard in school to succeed, etc, etc right?

Luck is not 'part of our culture.' It's like I can say luck is part of American culture because of gambling blah blah Vegas. Don't speak nonsense.

 

And @OP, idea sounds great.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Ruio

[DocTerror]

I've opened probably 70+ bags and have gotten almost full set. Unfortunately I haven't gotten ear, legs, waist or weapon but I have gotten 3 heads/feet/implant, 2 hands/body/off-hand all of which I would gladly trade for the weapon.

[ihateyouall]

Obvious, what the **** is Bioware thinking?

[JackKerras]

Yes, that's why the Asian stereotype has us working hard in school to succeed, etc, etc right?

Luck is not 'part of our culture.' It's like I can say luck is part of American culture because of gambling blah blah Vegas. Don't speak nonsense.

 

And @OP, idea sounds great.

 

I'd be all over that luck-isn't-in-there if it weren't for the fact that luck really was a huge part of Chinese culture. It's considered a relatively major deal, and in some ways it ought to be; everyone works hard, the lucky rise to the top. Folks who Know Someone, folks who happen to be at the right place at the right time, etc. Luck gets you the breaks; work is just what life is.

 

American culture in particular is much more achievement oriented. Do a neat thing few others have done, get a special reward. It's not a perfect comparison, but it -does- exist, and the concept of luck as not a means but -the- means of progression is pretty much solely in the Chinese or Korean F2P markets, while American-made or British-made games tend to be less about getting the twentieth iteration of an item not breaking (1% chance per) when you add a +1 to it and more about beating a boss to get a neat item which is relatively static. It used to be you couldn't even buy cash-shop items to insure your stuff; you used to just have to churn through hundreds of items 'til one decided not to break. The only way to get the best stuff in those games was to make -several- 1% or 2% success rolls in a row or else start from the beginning.

 

There's a relatively huge amount of material on this subject as far as articles and game design are concerned. The focus of progression systems on one side of the world is pretty different than the focus of progression systems on the other, and it has to do with the culture that gave it rise. It isn't a bad thing; people who're lucky really -are- the ones who make real money in most places. It's just accepted more in Chinese culture that luck has to do with it, while here it's considered almost purely hard work and perseverance.

 

Many, many articles about this. Interesting stuff. Gamasutra has a bunch, as I recall.

[Sciry]

You are wrong. I can state clearly when the grind for MMO end game gear is measured in "weeks", the people whining that the system is unfair or too long are, well, stupid & shortsighted. All the numbers even out on the grind to valor 60, period.

 

They've already addressed the complaints that matter (BM) to a certain degree, by the introduction of tokens. At that point it matters, because your bags (lotto tickets) are limited regardless of playtime.

 

I don't think it's perfect, but the arguements against it can't be "waaaah, it's too long, player-X got all his before me, waaah" because it can be measured casually in WEEKS and such arguements are moronic.

 

With the sad state of pvp being what it is, BW has bigger concerns.

 

 

Pulpp,

 

I've read through these 7 pages and each time your post pops up, I am not really sure who you are talking to. The OP wants to remove the pure RNG from a solo-based effort and add/replace it with one that requires work and effort and likely will create a core of players who are pursuing match objectives. This will increase the overall average of gearing up for some people and reduce it for others... but overall, I believe it will get longer.

 

People are hunting after a goal. In Vanilla WoW, they had their ranking system, and the most hardcore targeted that High Warlord rank, or set their eyes on General or Lt. General or whatever, one friend went for Sargent and stopped PVPing on that toon...

 

For anyone not familiar it basically had the person who gained the most honor that week get the most increase to their rank and it would trickle down. At various ranks, you would get different rewards, weapons, armor, mounts, ect.. It was a grind that would takes a couple months. Since only a set number of people could reach the top, it kept the system filled... but had a high burn out and when people did reach the top, they generally went and did things other than grind PVP for 8+ hours a day. They reached the final reward and that was it. Or then they'd take their fancy gear and go join a raiding guild and pursue T3 (at the end of Vanilla).

 

The system worked, but I hope to never participate in something like it again. SWTOR has a different problem: you can top yourself out in a couple weeks due to RNG (Pulpp's exact definition of moronic arguments, or so I gather) or you may never get there.

 

With the content push that Bioware appears to be putting forward, progression in PVE content can be measured in weeks, not months. If PVP doesn't follow suit with PVE progression, you recreate a system that rewards PVPers for doing PVE... not a good system.

 

The OPs suggestion is easily be scaled and I agree each "level" should be a small increase over the last... eventually this will reach a point of ridiculousness, but could be a good start to build from without changing or adding in more labor intensive solutions.

 

RS

[JackKerras]

One way or the other, there'll be grind for PvP gear.

 

That being said, I think that there should be a way to get it without getting lucky; I don't mind lottery bags and I'm perfectly happy for all the systems to stay precisely as they are with the -addition- of something for us luckless folks that end up opening bags and getting nothing most of the time.

 

That said, I also firmly believe that the ranks should be the big deal and that getting the armor should not be so terrible. Getting to rank 65 requires a certain investment, but once you're there, your job is done. Bang! You can put on ALL THE GEAR.

 

I think that's a bit silly. My WAR character got -most- of his PvP gear well before he could use it, and it glaring out of my inventory at me was one of the reasons I stayed in PvP and persevered as much as I did.

 

Having a random chance to look forward to instead of an armor piece that you just can't wear until you hit 66, or 67, or what-have-you? Way cool.

 

Filling the gaps between rank 40-60 with unlocks and gear upgrades and new PvP items and same-cooldown grenades or stims or medpacs that can be used and reused, unlocked by level, sharing a cooldown with several other items (some blue, some green, some red, all red share a cooldown, all blue share a cooldown, etc.) and working out like a sort of item-based talent spec system? That'd keep people playing something fierce.

 

But it'd also take a lot of designwork.

 

Simple solution, probably good in the short run, but a significant expansion of the PvP system would be -rockin'- for the people who are really interested in it.

 

I have no illusions, though; I know PvPers are a small percentage.

[dcgregorya]

One of my guildies opened 8 bags and got 8 pieces of unique gear. I myself have gotten one glove set out of 20 bags.

 

Yay, I love getting shafted for no reason and feeling a sense of hopeless bad luck after putting in the same amount of effort.

[Covnam]

Turned in my daily, weekly and bought a champion bag and all the items I got were duplicates. I even got one item twice in a row tonight that I already had.

It'd be nice if we could at least convert these unassembled champion items into champion tokens to spend on some other item, even if we don't get 100% of the value, at least give us something to do with them.

[Savish]

RNG needs to be removed completely, the way I see it why shouldn't lvling be RNG as well give killing a mob or turning a mission in a .1% chance of you gaining a lvl, there are plenty of ways to create a grind RNG is not a fair grind because it takes some people 2x 3x 4x or whatever longer then others based purely on luck.

 

As it is you are always at 0% towards getting an item till you actually get that item how is that fun at all and why is it like this for PVP, PVE and even crafting in this game with the stupid RE mechanic because you are never working towards anything you are just spending all your time gambling I don't like gambling I won't a set goal to work towards if I wanted to gamble I could just drive to Vegas.