JackKerras Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Original thread moved -> http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=204881 'Let's see if purples drop' is getting old fast. Every guild has a guy who's opened thirty bags and not gotten a single piece of gear out of them. My guildie has been doing PvP dailies and weeklies for a solid month and still doesn't have a mainhand lightsaber that's worth a damn. There's another guy, same class, who is purpled out. These two guys have been running together this entire time; one is geared, the other is shafted. There're a bunch of ways to fix this, but I think that the -best- way (that still remains reasonably easy to do) is to have a quest chain. In progress, they may look like this! Mercenary Warzone Mastery I: DPS-focused Medals in Warzones: 22/36 Healing Medals in Warzones: 5/8 Complete Huttball passes, Ball Handler Kill Assists, Bomb Plants/Disarms, or Terminal Slices: 47/64 Sniper Warzone Mastery IV: DPS-focused Medals in Warzones: 27/44 Solo Kill Medals in Warzones: 20/20 Complete Huttball passes, Ball Handler Kill Assists, Bomb Plants/Disarms, or Terminal Slices: 68/75 Reward: One piece of PvP tier gear, your choice. Each reptition of the quest, the numbers get a little larger; 38 intead of 36. NO BIG JUMPS. Progression, not sudden, irritating grindwalls. Give people a real objective instead of 'get bag, hope for loot'. And adding passes, plants and slices to this equation means even people who only want to kill will have a -good reason- to complete victory conditions instead of going straight for killing enemies. Don't say 'win games to get bags', say 'do these objectives to get gear'; winning games will progress naturally from people having a good reason to do objectives instead of just fight the enemy. Random bags are not interesting, they're not fun, and they do not drive the player to do anything except show up for games. Yes, winning has incentive. No, winning does not have clear goals set before players who do not have the interest to play the gametypes. Extra notes: This is intended to be an easy fix that fits on top of the current system without making any significant, coder-necessary changes to the way PvP in general, including medals, reward systems, and actual gear progression works. This could be done by an intern and would require very little time and money to implement; that is the goal. This is intended to have a set of quests that fit for different specs in the case of Mercs or Operatives, who have both main-healing and main-damage specs. I use Medals in these examples because they are a way for the developer to choose how long they wish each step to take; one Solo Kill Medal requirement means a good 15 minutes at least of playing in Warzones, as only one Solo Kill medal is available in any single Warzone. In a perfect world, objective counts could be iterated in an AoE, so being present for a cap. bomb plant, or running alongside the Huttball carrier would count; this would mean players would not -have- to sprint in and try to cap first for quest credit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulpp Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) This is the initial grind (and to be honest, it's not bad no matter how crappy your luck is). I see no reason to change it. It would be nice if future grinds aren't tied directly to RNG...and skipping an entire tier was an odd choice. Oranges with crafted/looted/daily com'd mods aren't that far under champ outside of expertise. No one that makes any level of effort can complain. Edited January 23, 2012 by Pulpp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cempa Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Implement a straight forward, luck free system that has clear prices and clear compensation per bag! 'Luck' is part of Asian culture to the extent some Asians believe that what determines if you succeed in life or not is all luck based. While in the West it is believed that the only way you can succeed is by hard work. You may work hard and not succeed, but if you do not will defiantly not succeed. What BW has implemented is offensive and disturbing to many Western players, linking hard work to luck is a terrible idea that saw every single Asian MMO flop in the West. Aion had over a million subs at start then as people realized the game was Luck/RNG/Grind based left! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saseav Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Original thread moved -> http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=204881 'Let's see if purples drop' is getting old fast. Every guild has a guy who's opened thirty bags and not gotten a single piece of gear out of them. My guildie has been doing PvP dailies and weeklies for a solid month and still doesn't have a mainhand lightsaber that's worth a damn. There's another guy, same class, who is purpled out. These two guys have been running together this entire time; one is geared, the other is shafted. There're a bunch of ways to fix this, but I think that the -best- way (that still remains reasonably easy to do) is to have a quest chain. In progress, they may look like this! Mercenary Warzone Mastery I: DPS-focused Medals in Warzones: 22/36 Healing Medals in Warzones: 5/8 Complete Huttball passes, Ball Handler Kill Assists, Bomb Plants/Disarms, or Terminal Slices: 47/64 Sniper Warzone Mastery IV: DPS-focused Medals in Warzones: 27/44 Solo Kill Medals in Warzones: 20/20 Complete Huttball passes, Ball Handler Kill Assists, Bomb Plants/Disarms, or Terminal Slices: 68/75 Reward: One piece of PvP tier gear, your choice. Each reptition of the quest, the numbers get a little larger; 38 intead of 36. NO BIG JUMPS. Progression, not sudden, irritating grindwalls. Give people a real objective instead of 'get bag, hope for loot'. And adding passes, plants and slices to this equation means even people who only want to kill will have a -good reason- to complete victory conditions instead of going straight for killing enemies. Don't say 'win games to get bags', say 'do these objectives to get gear'; winning games will progress naturally from people having a good reason to do objectives instead of just fight the enemy. Random bags are not interesting, they're not fun, and they do not drive the player to do anything except show up for games. Yes, winning has incentive. No, winning does not have clear goals set before players who do not have the interest to play the gametypes. Extra notes: This is intended to be an easy fix that fits on top of the current system without making any significant, coder-necessary changes to the way PvP in general, including medals, reward systems, and actual gear progression works. This could be done by an intern and would require very little time and money to implement; that is the goal. This is intended to have a set of quests that fit for different specs in the case of Mercs or Operatives, who have both main-healing and main-damage specs. I use Medals in these examples because they are a way for the developer to choose how long they wish each step to take; one Solo Kill Medal requirement means a good 15 minutes at least of playing in Warzones, as only one Solo Kill medal is available in any single Warzone. In a perfect world, objective counts could be iterated in an AoE, so being present for a cap. bomb plant, or running alongside the Huttball carrier would count; this would mean players would not -have- to sprint in and try to cap first for quest credit. really?:/ i've opened 6? and have 3 pieces. gloves,implant and saber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackKerras Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 really?:/ i've opened 6? and have 3 pieces. gloves,implant and saber. Really. Someone in the other thread has counted forty bags without a gear piece. My roommate's got gear, but six of the pieces he got are all pants. This is a relatively major, widespread problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackKerras Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 This is the initial grind (and to be honest, it's not bad no matter how crappy your luck is). I see no reason to change it. It would be nice if future grinds aren't tied directly to RNG...and skipping an entire tier was an odd choice. Oranges with crafted/looted/daily com'd mods aren't that far under champ outside of expertise. No one that makes any level of effort can complain. Actually, it really is bad. My roomie has six of the same piece and no mainhand. Four pair of gloves. Someone in my other thread has nine implants past the two that he needs, eleven in total. Grinds tied to RNG singlehandedly destroy a feeling of momentum and progression that players get while they're moving steadily towards a goal; having no actual goals (nothing in the quest log to update) makes poor players misunderstand gametypes or ignore objectives entirely. A lot of bad stuff comes from deciding whether you get gear by luck! For example, my roomie, who is not even -close- to fully geared, and his guildmate, who leveled with him and queues with him often, who has every piece of BM gear -and duplicates-. It's bad because it rewards people with no rhyme and reason. Of course the initial grind sucks; my problem is that some people do great and some people get the shaft for no reason at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonFire Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 We have Orbital Stations that cause us 2 more doors for realism purposes yet we have a random dude on our Imperial Fleet selling us bags for the commendations we get by going to war(!), without letting us look in it....ya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulpp Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Actually, it really is bad. My roomie has six of the same piece and no mainhand. Four pair of gloves. Someone in my other thread has nine implants past the two that he needs, eleven in total. Maybe your roomate should use his brain and peel those mods out of the extra pieces? Viola, equivilent, maybe even superior, orange champ gear. Neither expertise nor pvp set bonuses are going to break a build. On the grind to valor 60, your companions will end up decked out in champ gear. It's a silly complaint in the scheme of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmatian Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Maybe your roomate should use his brain and peel those mods out of the extra pieces? Viola, equivilent, maybe even superior, orange champ gear. Neither expertise nor pvp set bonuses are going to break a build. On the grind to valor 60, your companions will end up decked out in champ gear. It's a silly complaint in the scheme of things. Can't pull mods out of PvP gear. The grand scheme of things is: luck. That's it. I wouldn't mind the system in place *as much* if it rewarded you with a universal token, rather than a specific token. It blows my mind as to why Bioware didn't have the common courtesy to extend the revamped Battlemaster Bag system to the Champion Bags. It's bad enough that gear progression is measured by the roll of the dice, but the fact that our *luck* may end up yielding duplicates is just a tragedy. There's no excuse for rewarding players with 9 relics in a row because he has terrible luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpySwe Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) Maybe your roomate should use his brain and peel those mods out of the extra pieces? Viola, equivilent, maybe even superior, orange champ gear. Neither expertise nor pvp set bonuses are going to break a build. On the grind to valor 60, your companions will end up decked out in champ gear. It's a silly complaint in the scheme of things. First of all there are no mods in a lot of the gear like implants, earpieces, relics and so on. Second YOU CANT REMOVE THE MODS!!! yes they are gonna add this "feature" but in how long? Frankly this system is a joke and WILL make people rage and leave, simple as that. How bioware could even think this was a good system is beyond me. Edited January 23, 2012 by GrumpySwe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BegaTasty Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 All you want is faster free shinys, when you already have a game that is the most shallow, the easiest an least content driven MMO in hystory of gaming. So demanding more shinys for less work really is jsut taking the micky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quagan Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I don't see what the problem is really... ofc - when you are opening the bags (champ) it is luck based. But, surely you are opening the champ bags with Cent Commendations and as you know the base medals needed for Cent gear, you have no luck about it? The BM bags have Champ Commendations, which again - you know how many medals are needed so there is no luck? Just work hard and get the gear by grinding the medals, so you get 3 a bag and after around 10 bags you get a piece of champions/cents... if you're lucky you get a BM piece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xavmobile Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I don't see what the problem is really... ofc - when you are opening the bags (champ) it is luck based. But, surely you are opening the champ bags with Cent Commendations and as you know the base medals needed for Cent gear, you have no luck about it? The BM bags have Champ Commendations, which again - you know how many medals are needed so there is no luck? Just work hard and get the gear by grinding the medals, so you get 3 a bag and after around 10 bags you get a piece of champions/cents... if you're lucky you get a BM piece. White Knights, White Knights Whatchu gunna do Whatchu gunna do when they come for you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xavmobile Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 All you want is faster free shinys, when you already have a game that is the most shallow, the easiest an least content driven MMO in hystory of gaming. So demanding more shinys for less work really is jsut taking the micky. Yeah sorry for not putting effort into improving my IRL luck. I'll chase those rabbits harder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulpp Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) Can't pull mods out of PvP gear. First of all there are no mods in a lot of the gear like implants, earpieces, relics and so on. Second YOU CANT REMOVE THE MODS!!! yes they are gonna add this "feature" but in how long? Frankly this system is a joke and WILL make people rage and leave, simple as that. How bioware could even think this was a good system is beyond me. Since when? Do you even have "pvp gear"? The only mod you can no longer pull out it the expertise+ mod. Everything else pops out. Sometimes I wonder if some of you even play the same game as I do. Edited January 23, 2012 by Pulpp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackKerras Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 All you want is faster free shinys, when you already have a game that is the most shallow, the easiest an least content driven MMO in hystory of gaming. So demanding more shinys for less work really is jsut taking the micky. Nope. This would actually slow progression down for a lot of the folks I've seen. Some people get six bags and six pieces of gear fly out of them, and suddenly they're geared to the teeth and rolling other folks. Some people get forty bags and get **** and shoved in it. That's what bugs me. It's not the speed, it's the fact that for no reason, one person gets geared and another person gets dicked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackKerras Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 Since when? Do you even have "pvp gear"? The only mod you can no longer pull out it the expertise+ mod. Everything else pops out. Sometimes I wonder if some of you even play the same game as I do. The Expertise mod. Did you mean, 'the relevant mod'? 'Cuz it's basically the only part of PvP gear that's actively better, stat-for-stat, than much-easier-to-get PvE gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruxe Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 65 bags, 18 items Multiple boots, bracers, implants Not a single ear Not a single main hand I approve of this message, RNG blows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kjetl Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Neither expertise nor pvp set bonuses are going to break a build. On the grind to valor 60, your companions will end up decked out in champ gear. It's a silly complaint in the scheme of things. So you don't actually pvp do you? Expertise certainly breaks the build... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xCat Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Really. Someone in the other thread has counted forty bags without a gear piece. And someone got 8 relic tokens in a row for example. Without any other pieces of gear ofcoz. Me for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackKerras Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 A big chunk of bonus Expertise from a lucky drop or two will -immediately- make you more powerful than your peers. Significantly so, in some cases. So the lucky get stronger quickly, and want to stay with the game more, while the unlucky curse the system and have no reason to continue going after the carrot on a stick after it turns out to be plastic the first five or six times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulpp Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 So you don't actually pvp do you? Expertise certainly breaks the build... 1-10% doesn't break any build, it's just a focal point bads can cry about. The reality is you will be drowing in champ gear on the way valor rank 60, no matter how crappy your luck is. Stack up your oranges with duplicate champ mods and the ONLY, only gear disperity becomes expertise, as you start filling in slots. Seriously, you folks will cry about anything. Waaah, I can't get my nearly full gear set earlier than 2 weeks of casual grinding, waaaah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackKerras Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 1-10% doesn't break any build, it's just a focal point bads can cry about. The reality is you will be drowing in champ gear on the way valor rank 60, no matter how crappy your luck is. Stack up your oranges with duplicate champ mods and the ONLY, only gear disperity becomes expertise, as you start filling in slots. Seriously, you folks will cry about anything. Waaah, I can't get my nearly full gear set earlier than 2 weeks of casual grinding, waaaah. Waaah, that guy got his nearly full gear set in one week of doing dailies and weeklies and I've gotten either nothing, six pairs of pants, or a huge handful of implants I can't use. It's not a question of how fast it goes, like I said before. I don't mind if it takes -longer-, and with my system, it's likely that it would. would. It's a question of whether or not it's a fair advancement. That, and yeah, 10% is a huge ****in' deal. People raid for weeks to upgrade to something that's a few tenths of a percent better than their previous gear. Little bits of percentage are not something to screw around with, they're the difference between winning and losing. That's why people want better gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xCat Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) Seriously, you folks will cry about anything. Seriously, i wanna see how you'll be able to kill guy in champion set when you still in oranges, especially if you was unlucky to choose melee class. For example i have full pvp-geared trooper that able to burst your "oranges" in 4-5 secs. Edited January 23, 2012 by xCat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ComeAndSee Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Seriously, i wanna see how you'll be able to kill guy in champion set when you still in oranges, especially if you was unlucky to choose melee class. I doubt you lost because they're 5% better than you. Champ gear isn't hard to get. I got nearly entirely Champ set geared in a week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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