STOP copying WoW and start copying DAoC

[Icebergy]

DAoC is so great that I had to google it just to figure out what it stands for. Lets copy that game!

 

If they implemented any of the suggestions I have seen so far in this thread, I would quit immediately. And I know I wouldn't be the only one.

Edited January 29, 2012 by Icebergy

[Proppa]

DAoC is so great that I had to google it just to figure out what it stands for. Lets copy that game!

 

It is a 10 year old game, so not surprising some people haven't heard of it.

 

But anyone who enjoys competative non-instanced gaming knows that it's superb PvP.

 

From what I hear of WoW (Never played it), is that all you get is "instances" with the same op'd combination vs the same op'd combinations?

 

DAOC you had variety, you would get fights 8v1, 8v4, 8v8, 8v16, 8v100. Some of the best fights I had in DAOC, were my group taking out 2/3 times our numbers of people who had no idea what to do. Just watching them all charge in, without a thought of where healers were etc.

[Ashanor]

I don't think Ilum will ever compare to DAoC RvR zones. The best bet is GW2 WvWvW at this point.

 

WvWvW PvP:

 

This is a game mode where 3 servers are pit against each other in a FFA across 4 persistent maps in a place off the world map called The Mists. This is joinable by anyone at any time, 24/7. Each battle lasts 2 weeks and the winner of the 3 servers then gets matched up with 2 other equally matched servers. A world's rank increases as it wins more often. During combat there is no direct way for these worlds to communicate with each other. At launch there will be 1 map that is split into 4 maps, 1 map that is the home map for each server and in the center is a neutral center map. Each map has resources and objectives to capture, things like castles, fortresses, mercenary camps, mines, lumber mills and villages. These sites, with the management of their capture and defense, allow teams of all different sizes to find a way to participate. For example, larger groups or guilds may take or hold keeps, while smaller group sizes or even individual participants might assist by disrupting supply caravans, weakening defenses, or capturing other objectives that will stop reinforcements. Maps will also be populated with defensively-oriented NPCs to set the pace of gameplay, but their presence is to allow defending players a chance to join in the defense as opposed to being a credible or reliable threat.

 

Resources gained from mines and lumber mills are used to rebuild walls, create siege engines, and generally defend the world's fortress. Once they move to the central map, players joining will start at their world's portal keep. From there they may continue to capture objectives while dealing with players from other worlds seeking to invade opposing home maps via the central map zone. Thus, play will travel between the central map and home maps as worlds gain and lose footholds such as keeps and strategic points that influence bonuses for their home world.

So all of the objectives in WvW use the Dynamic Event system. Say like your server takes over a mine, a new event will kick off to escort the minecart back to a nearby keep. Both of the other servers will have an event to destroy your minecart. If you get it back to a keep, your server then gains access to siege weaponry to use against your enemies.

 

Here's a screenshot of a leaked map, this is about 1/3rd of one of the four WvWvW maps to give you an idea of the size & scale:

 

World benefits

 

Territories and control points within the map will confer benefits to the world that controls them, such as faster energy/health regeneration, increased drop rate or increased experience gain for a time.

 

Individual rewards

 

Players can gain experience and level their character entirely in World PvP. Killing people in World vs World gives the player loot which means a player doesn't need to leave World PvP to get better gear.

 

That was taken from this post on guildwars2guru.com.

 

Also, check out this video for a good PvP overwiew.

 

[daays]

12 million players is a bit of a stretch.. some countries charge by the hour for internets.

 

Number is scewed.

 

...

You do realize that Blizzard announces what a "subscription" is right? Can easily go look it up.

 

Also 12mil was a year ago.

 

That number is now under the 10mil mark.

 

Still a great game. Still raised the standards for MMORPG gaming. Still the company others want to be.

[Saviorofcamelot]

/Agree

[schwiz]

Well they don't even copy WoW properly. In WoW all of the endgame instances and raids were in a neutral area so you had a high chance to find some real world pvp when heading to do end game content. In swtor all of the endgame flashpoints are in faction controlled territory so there really is no way to encourage real world pvp. I never played DaoC but I hear it similar to what they did in WAR so I could get on boarded with it.

 

 

Edit: on a side note I don't understand why all the people in this thread quit playing DaoC or WAR if they liked the pvp there so much....

Edited January 29, 2012 by schwiz

[Almghty_gir]

just want to point out something...

 

there are servers in both EU and US, where the under populated republic side are absolutely 100% curbstomping the imperials on their server on ilum.

 

i would be willing to put down some serious $$$ that those players are mostly ex-DAOC/WAR players.

 

they know how to bomb, they know how to fight with small numbers vs many, and they know how to play on a large scale.

[Ashanor]

...

You do realize that Blizzard announces what a "subscription" is right? Can easily go look it up.

 

Also 12mil was a year ago.

 

That number is now under the 10mil mark.

 

Still a great game. Still raised the standards for MMORPG gaming. Still the company others want to be.

 

Most of their subs are Asian and 95% of their revenue comes from western subs, according to financial experts and gamasutra. You can look that up too. All you need to compete with WoW is a couple million western subs. Last I checked they had 4.5 million western subs (EU and NA) in WotLK, I am sure the number is significantly lower now.

[CzaplaM]

I haven't heard of DAoC. I'll have to check it out.

[Hajizan]

12 million players = worst mmo ever...........wat wat wat!!!!

 

12 million 12 year olds, then they grow up and see the light.

[daays]

Anyways DAOC PvP cannot work in this game.

 

This game has 2 factions.

 

It is impossible to have a good open world PvP system with just 2 factions. One side will eventually destroy the other. It's happened in every single game with 2 factions so far.

 

The games people enjoy for OWPvP had 3 factions or no factions.

The games people hate for OWPvP had 2 factions.

[Tic-]

DAoC is so great that I had to google it just to figure out what it stands for. Lets copy that game!

 

If they implemented any of the suggestions I have seen so far in this thread, I would quit immediately. And I know I wouldn't be the only one.

 

and you started playing MMOs when? I mean the game was pretty damn popular for its time.

 

I'm curious, which parts didn't you like? The game wasn't perfect, but at least it wasn't a cookie cutter MMO, thinking they could possibly catch lightening in a bottle for the second time.

Edited January 29, 2012 by Tic-

[KnifeSpeaks]

Ill thro in my 1 cents worth. I have been playing online since before most of your were born probably. ( I remember when my 486pc was "da chit") Back before AOL had the free online games. Yes I'm old BattleTech/MW junkie. UO was my first online MMORPG and have to admit since then I have never really been able to satisfy my hunger for a strong pvp style MMORPG. PVP should have it's penalties and imo UO had harsh penalties for dieing. But that is how it was and it was fun and very strategic. Used to play naked with just a butcher knife at the Liche's just to raise magic resist. Hiding in stealth waiting for the dumbazz to almost tame his dragon and then bust on him and take his gear and rations, etc. That was fun. Was a ****** when I died in high end gear and see my corpse being looted. But that was the price you paid. Loved it!!

 

I believe we have 2 genre's of folks wanting 2 diffferent things in PVP here. You have the old crowd wanting TRUE pvp and the young crowd who want "arcade pvp". Hopefully BW will see that both genre's are important for it's success of this game. There have been many GREAT suggestions on how to fix the PVP system for both sides enjoyment. Guess time will tell if BW wants to be a copy cat or lead us into the next generation. (crosses fingers)

 

I left the MMO genre for long time and never had an opportunity to play DAoC. After doing the research I am very disappointed in myself for missing out on it. Looking at Dominus and GW2 and the way those 2 games are going to be delivered is very promising and can't wait for them to be released. I am a HUGE Star Wars fan and would hope that BW gets the message and figures this out because if not I will be jumping ship. I realize I am only 1 out of millions of subscribers and not that important in terms of revenue but just 1 UNHAPPY customer is bad for any company. There has to be a solution, the question is whether BW wants to appease all its subscribers or just the arcade junkies???

 

Kill EM ALL!!

Edited January 29, 2012 by KnifeSpeaks

[Briljin]

While I tend to agree that DAoC had much better world PvP, calling WoW "the worst failure that ever was an mmorpg" is a huge joke. If that is a failure, then god only knows what pretty much every MMO since has been?!? Just because you dislike the game doesn't really out weight the millions that obviously did and still do.

[DarthNemis]

Hell yeah! Its my favorite thread.

[Dustfinder]

How about copying no one and just being thier own game?

[Tic-]

nevermind... Edited January 29, 2012 by Tic-

[Dee-Jay]

DAoC PvP excelled in it's conception, not in it's execution.

 

 

When it comes to responsive, skill-based PvP, WoW is still the best MMO on the market.

 

 

Sure, it had issues and still does. I'm not saying it's the pinnacle of MMO PvP. But you must accept that it did excel in some areas. Mass PvP wasn't one of those areas I'll give you that.

 

But neither is SWTOR. Ironically for an MMO game, the sWTOR engine fails when it comes to mass-scenes, especially in PvP.

 

The engine will require a lot of improvement before it's capable of handling PvP anywhere near the size and volume of DAoC.

[Kinyen]

Amazing about time someone bring DAOC best PVP there is. I hope Bio is reading and pick up what the community is asking. Edited January 29, 2012 by Kinyen

[Saoul]

To whoever asked why us old DAoC (Dark Age of Camelot, for those wondering) lovers didn't stay with the game if it was so great....

 

The thing is, WoW killed DAoC. Basically murdered it.

 

WoW did a good thing in that it brought online games and perhaps even gaming in general into the main stream. I imagine this was done by targetting the short term reward centers of players. Quick rewards, instant gratification and instant results. This, then, together with Blizzards whole might behind the advertising on a before that unprecedented scale - made for the huge success that snowballed by itself, and fed itself even long after the fact that much of those short term rewards had lost their luster.

 

DAoC was a game of the older cut. Game systems were harsher then, they could penalize the player as much as rewarding her, and the gratifying rewards usually only came after a lot of hard work. Of course, in this harsher environment, said rewards meant a lot more and carried with the players for a much longer time - but this mattered little when there was free ice-cream over by the Blizzard truck. And once the exodus started, there was no turning back.

 

I realize this sounds a bit pretentious, but to put some perspective on my own experience; I too would have probably fallen for the trap if I hadn't had a strong distaste for the graphical look of WoW. I never quit DAoC for WoW. I quit because DAoc died a rather quick death because of WoW, and because all my friends and guildies left for the greener pastures.

 

Yes, I'm still bitter about it, mostly because I felt they left something great - namely a game that had people rally to their realms' defenses together, offered pvp solo experiences with stealthing behind enemy lines and kill their only rezzer, or preying on their lowbies as they were taking the risk of xp grinding in the more rewarding frontier areas. Where hundreds of players would meet in mass battles over important frontier areas that affected ordinary PvE gameplay. It got everyone involved in PvP, and it brought a great sense of comradeship with your fellow realm mates - as well as a healthy tongue-in-cheek enmity towards the two enemy realms.

 

DAoC was in a strong sense three games in one, just as you could say TOR is two games (Rep and Imp) games in one. Except in DAoC, classes weren't mirrored copies of eachother, and there weren't even the same amount of classes per realm. It didn't matter, because Mythic found the balance anyway, it was not polished into a boring, plain surface but rather created with a lot of common sense and a deep understanding on what brought players together.

 

Now as someone said, it would probably be difficult with todays engines to recreate mass battles like DAoC had. Still though, I'd love to see someone try, and I for one would love to see a day where I'm grinding, slightly bored on my level 50 trooper - only to hear a rally call over the republic channel "IMPS ATTACKING TATOOINE, COME HELP!". Log in my level 25 jedi alt, (as Tatooine in my example would be an open battleground for levels 25-29), group up with random strangers in a common goal: prevent imp forces from taking over the main base of the planet - currently flying republic colours and granting all of the republic a 1% bonus to internal damage resists.

 

And when we win that fight with our lowbie characters, we've accompished something meaningful even to the level 50 power-pvpers. Imagine the claps on your shoulder from your guildmates, heck from anyone in the realm caring about these bonuses. That's what DAoC was like, and that's what I would love to see in TOR.

 

Sorry about the lenghty post, and thank you if you made it through.

Edited January 29, 2012 by Saoul

[Ashanor]

To whoever asked why us old DAoC (Dark Age of Camelot, for those wondering) lovers didn't stay with the game if it was so great....

 

The thing is, WoW killed DAoC. Basically murdered it.

 

WoW did a good thing in that it brought online games and perhaps even gaming in general into the main stream. I imagine this was done by targetting the short term reward centers of players. Quick rewards, instant gratification and instant results. This, then, together with Blizzards whole might behind the advertising on a before that unprecedented scale - made for the huge success that snowballed by itself, and fed itself even long after the fact that much of those short term rewards had lost their luster.

 

DAoC was a game of the older cut. Game systems were harsher then, they could penalize the player as much as rewarding her, and the gratifying rewards usually only came after a lot of hard work. Of course, in this harsher environment, said rewards meant a lot more and carried with the players for a much longer time - but this mattered little when there was free ice-cream over by the Blizzard truck. And once the exodus started, there was no turning back.

 

I realize this sounds a bit pretentious, but to put some perspective on my own experience; I too would have probably fallen for the trap if I hadn't had a strong distaste for the graphical look of WoW. I never quit DAoC for WoW. I quit because DAoc died a rather quick death because of WoW, and because all my friends and guildies left for the greener pastures.

 

Yes, I'm still bitter about it, mostly because I felt they left something great - namely a game that had people rally to their realms' defenses together, offered pvp solo experiences with stealthing behind enemy lines and kill their only rezzer, or preying on their lowbies as they were taking the risk of xp grinding in the more rewarding frontier areas. Where hundreds of players would meet in mass battles over important frontier areas that affected ordinary PvE gameplay. It got everyone involved in PvP, and it brought a great sense of comradeship with your fellow realm mates - as well as a healthy tongue-in-cheek enmity towards the two enemy realms.

 

DAoC was in a strong sense three games in one, just as you could say TOR is two games (Rep and Imp) games in one. Except in DAoC, classes weren't mirrored copies of eachother, and there weren't even the same amount of classes per realm. It didn't matter, because Mythic found the balance anyway, it was not polished into a boring, plain surface but rather created with a lot of common sense and a deep understanding on what brought players together.

 

Now as someone said, it would probably be difficult with todays engines to recreate mass battles like DAoC had. Still though, I'd love to see someone try, and I for one would love to see a day where I'm grinding, slightly bored on my level 50 trooper - only to hear a rally call over the republic channel "IMPS ATTACKING TATOOINE, COME HELP!". Log in my level 25 jedi alt, (as Tatooine in my example would be an open battleground for levels 25-29), group up with random strangers in a common goal: prevent imp forces from taking over the main base of the planet - currently flying republic colours and granting all of the republic a 1% bonus to internal damage resists.

 

And when we win that fight with our lowbie characters, we've accompished something meaningful even to the level 50 power-pvpers. Imagine the claps on your shoulder from your guildmates, heck from anyone in the realm caring about these bonuses. That's what DAoC was like, and that's what I would love to see in TOR.

 

Sorry about the lenghty post, and thank you if you made it through.

 

WoW didn't kill DAoC. Most people I know quit because of ToA. You know, the massive grind expansion that forced people who enjoyed PvP to go grind PvE content if they wanted to remain competitive. So, Mythic killed DAoC with their prized PvE grinder expansion. Ask most ex DAoC players and they will tell you the same thing.

[Cowflab]

WoW PvP during The Burning Crusade was and is still the pinnacle of MMO PvP. Anyone who thinks otherwise has got some coke bottle sized rose tinted glasses on. As far as PvP is concerned, it was that era of WoW that made it the juggernaught it has become. It has steadily went downhill since, but I cannot begin to remember the last time I had so much fun in an MMO.

 

1. Easy to get slightly lower teir gear to keep everyone competitive.

 

2. Random world PvP(although purposeless) for faction pride.

 

3. Rated arenas for the "skilled" players to show their stuff and get slightly better gear.

 

4. Team battles and 1v1s that took longer than 4-5 seconds to win or lose(read: strategy)

 

That era did have its faults, but by and large was the golden age of MMO PvP.

Edited January 29, 2012 by Cowflab

[Kolbenito]

WoW PvP during The Burning Crusade was and is still the pinnacle of MMO PvP. Anyone who thinks otherwise has got some coke bottle sized rose tinted glasses on. As far as PvP is concerned, it was that era of WoW that made it the juggernaught it has become. It has steadily went downhill since, but I cannot begin to remember the last time I had so much fun in an MMO.

 

1. Easy to get slightly lower teir gear to keep everyone competitive.

 

2. Random world PvP(although purposeless) for faction pride.

 

3. Rated arenas for the "skilled" players to show their stuff and get slightly better gear.

 

4. Team battles and 1v1s that took longer than 4-5 seconds to win or lose(read: strategy)

 

That era did have its faults, but by and large was the golden age of MMO PvP.

 

Couldn't have said it better.

[rchase]

This won't work. 2 months in, new players will start to complain that they can't compete in pvp because the people who have been around longer have more/bigger/better abilities and they can't catch up. New players will get frustrated and quit, and the pvp playerbase will never grow.

 

An MMO designed around a concept that stunts its own ability to grow will fail every time.

 

And the first time you were to announce that it would take a decade (or hell, a year) to gain certain abilities, people would throw a fit and quit.

 

 

IMO people are missing the true point of what TRULY made DAoC great. Yeah, ability>gear, 3 factions, etc. Those were all wonderful.

 

But the biggest thing is, and is why DAoC STILL has very successful PVP to this day 10 years in is the fact that the PVP objectives were bigger than the individual player. No one person, no matter the class, could take a tower or keep or relic without a TEAM. People organized under battlegroups, formed groups, and waged a campaign of keep sieges, etc.

 

You act like as soon as there were RR13s in the game no one stood a chance against them. Uhh, if you took on a RR13 as a RR2, you deserved to get rolled for being stupid. RvR, or faction vs faction PVP is NOT ABOUT THE INDIVIDUAL. Let me say that again. FACTION VS FACTION PVP is NOT about the INDIVIDUAL. You get in a group, do group objectives, 8v8, etc, and you WILL get realm points and eventually climb the RR ladder. It's really not that hard of a concept. People forget what the 2nd M in MMORPG stands for... MULTIPLAYER. You're SUPPOSED to play as a team.

 

If you wanna implement an arena or something for that, fine. But if you're a caster class running around solo, and you get 1 shotted by an assassin, that's how the game works. That's why you need a team to back you up. Thats why you gotta be smart and pick your battles. That same assassin isn't going to try to assassinate a heavy tank, cause he'll get crushed.

 

Once again, there is a reason why 10 years into DAoC, people still RvR every day in big numbers. Devs might want to ignore it cause of how old the game is, and yes, it is old, controls/UI are outdated and especially hard for a player who lost their mmovirginity to WoW pick up. DAoC did make some horrible decisions over the years (ToA--made you have to get the gear to be competitive in PvP) and that's what killed it, not the foundation of what makes RvR great.

 

What kills me though, is all the people that left DAoC for WoW back in the day cause of ToA and it's implementation of gear based PvP are huge hypocrites. WoW is what popularized gear based...everything, and it's horrible.

 

I guarantee you the people here who said DAoC was a horrible game probably played WoW as their first MMO. The TECHNOLOGICAL differences in the game make WoW a smoother play, but that doesn't mean it is better.

[rchase]

WoW didn't kill DAoC. Most people I know quit because of ToA. You know, the massive grind expansion that forced people who enjoyed PvP to go grind PvE content if they wanted to remain competitive. So, Mythic killed DAoC with their prized PvE grinder expansion. Ask most ex DAoC players and they will tell you the same thing.

 

Haha I just talked about this in my last post. All those people that left DAOC because of ToA and then went to WoW are complete hypocrites. Yeah, ToA was the worst decision Mythic ever made (well maybe WAR was) and was completely stupid, but those people that left DAoC for WoW because of ToA can shove it.