Please BW: Adjust Marauders / Sentinels survivability

[ReithKanaka]

You will see them dominate in the future if nothing is done.

 

 

Mm. I wouldn't hold my breath on that one.

 

I see a lot of sentinels operate to their spec when ability delay doesn't get in the way do well, I also see from time to time they maybe close to the top ranking in damage in PVP. Kinda far and few between.

 

But then again the majority of sentinels aren't that good it seems. And if the majority are under performing I wouldn't get my panties in a knot simply cause someone is playing exceptionally well.

 

Hell its pretty evident to some that you need a level of skill that usually has people re roll. If BW is simply stating that you'll need plenty of skill and time to dedicate to make a good sentinel, then i wouldn't be worried.

 

 

What I would be worried about is if BW thoughts on sentinel is that its too difficult for the average player to enjoy, they may make some changes. And right now the average player is facing plenty of difficulty.

[bennyrosso]

Marauders are fine. What they gain in survivability over Juggs is compensated by a reduction in DPS (the 30% extra Smash damage Juggs do). I play a Rage specced Jugg and can consistently do over 400k damage every WZ as long as they aren't complete stomps. I had a 630k damage Voidstar this weekend. It takes far more luck, skill, and effort for Marauders to do this much damage.

 

I admit that I even get jealous of Marauders at times due to their insane defensive CDs. Once my Saber Ward and Endure Pain are on CD, I go down fairly quickly, especially against Sages/Sorcs and Commandos/Mercs.

 

Can u post a screenshot the next time u do so much dmg?

I want to check other players dmg cause My record is around 220k with my rank 42 operative and I was top 2 so either my server sucks really bad or there is something I'm missing.

 

This is a random huttball scoreboard screenshot I had.

http://www.benedettodellariccia.it/pvpscore.jpg

[Kel-vin]

we are not a 3 button class and dont have any in-combat self heals (unless you have the watchmen spec). Play a sent or maraud for a few levels in pve and pvp then come back and tell us your story.

 

Amen! I like watchmen better for the survivability, but I prefer combat. I leveled all the way up as a Sentinel and doing both pve and pvp I felt very VERY squishy. I can throw out some mad damage, but even with my Defense abilities I still get stomped quicker than you'd think by the way everyone in this thread is talking.

 

You guys are looking at numbers and percentages and not the environment that affects more than half the 'nerfs' that you want here. If you nerf sentinel, the class would be useless. I say leave it the way it is...maybe...take it's defensive abilities down a notch and increase it's overall mitigation by a slight margin. Being squishy, sentinels rely on their burst damage to kill the opponent before they get killed themselves. Granite I"m not fully geared in Champion.

[Dreadspectre]

I'm just tired of full resolve bar Marauders popping undying rage and walking through fire pits unscathed in huttball

[ReithKanaka]

you realize they lose half their health when they do that. if their health is full thats still a big hit. just stun/lock'em for 6 seconds then they're toast.

 

 

Even at low health they use the Guarded by the force (Sentinal by the way) at low health its not a jail get out of free card. you simply have to wait a short period of time. yes, yes... 6 seconds is a long time in pvp, hence my beef with flash bang and that twirling lightning thing sorcerers do.

 

I think a lot of problems is player not planning around the an enemies weakness. Though this is different from Operative, that stuff you basically hope to god they didn't kill you in the first couple of seconds to where u might recover.

[Dreadspectre]

you realize they lose half their health when they do that. if their health is full thats still a big hit. just stun/lock'em for 6 seconds then they're toast.

 

 

Even at low health they use the Guarded by the force (Sentinal by the way) at low health its not a jail get out of free card. you simply have to wait a short period of time. yes, yes... 6 seconds is a long time in pvp, hence my beef with flash bang and that twirling lightning thing sorcerers do.

 

I think a lot of problems is player not planning around the an enemies weakness. Though this is different from Operative, that stuff you basically hope to god they didn't kill you in the first couple of seconds to where u might recover.

 

Read: FULL RESOLVE BAR

 

Health cost is negligible, it's meant to be used when you're near death anyway.

[EasymodeX]

Hee hee hee, nerf me.

 

 

The calls for Marauder/Sentinel nerfs will no doubt escalate when the ability bugs are fixed.

[Eltohan]

Read: FULL RESOLVE BAR

 

Health cost is negligible, it's meant to be used when you're near death anyway.

 

Too bad about one time on four the damn ability won't fire up if you've like 5% health or used another defensive CD 5 sec before (I feel like a Pladin in WoW on that times, except there is NO ERROR MESSAGE)

 

BTW, the resolve bar is broken. Can bi filled up entirely in 2 moves and that can last like 3 sec.

 

Or it can take as long as 10 freaking sec being rooted/knockbacked/stun during which you're toasted even if you fire up a defensive cooldown (if you find the opportunity)

 

We don't have heavy armor with natural resistances and all FYI.

[yokubou]

Oh wow, really ? Thread saying that Sentinels/Marauders are op. I've seen it all now.

[zqsd]

So...

 

I made this thread 2 months ago and as predicted, people now realize how strong marauders are and how their combined damage / survivability is overpowered in a group pvp setup (the only one which matters).

 

As we all saw the 1.2 patch notes, we can now fairly ask... What the **** BW is thinking? Do they even play their own game?

[HyperThomas]

Their survivability was buffed when a lot complained on the forums 2 or so months ago.

Their survivability is way too high for a pure DPS class.

[Cempa]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=363731

[Krytycal]

Marauders are fine. They can't LoS/pillar hump and pew pew you from range like ranged classes do. They have to be out there in the front line and are very prone to focus fire since they're generally the first thing the enemy sees. If you nerf their survivability, you effectively turn them into deception assassins (not a good thing) with less burst damage and without the ability to start the fight on their terms.

 

If anything, we need to make deception assassins more like marauders.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Krytycal

[Badlander]

If you read the patch notes we did get a defense nerf. Camouflage that gave us 100% damage resist now only give us 50%. Edited March 18, 2012 by Badlander

[rzrknight]

IF this was arena , you would be correct OP , but in wzs completing the objectives is more important than simple being strong.

 

Sure , they are still "unbalanced" atm , but that happened because people would not stop the cry about how weak they were , soon BW listen the QQ again and nerf them.

 

Maras are a pain.Do they win a match alone?Never saw one doing that until today.

[Dee-Jay]

Does this seem fine to you?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHuwPm6aDhs

 

Yes, this was pre biochem nerf, but still. 10k crits by the class that has the most damage mitigation?

 

Well Luciela certainly left a legacy.

 

That footage was recorded, pre Stim nerf, pre Biochem nerf, pre Surge nerf with excessive buff and power stacking and heavily optimized gear.

 

Those numbers simply aren't possible any more. Please move on.

[Jurary]

We don't have sick burst.

 

We have too high sustained damage in annihilation.

[Moosestick]

So...

 

I made this thread 2 months ago and as predicted, people now realize how strong marauders are and how their combined damage / survivability is overpowered in a group pvp setup (the only one which matters).

 

As we all saw the 1.2 patch notes, we can now fairly ask... What the **** BW is thinking? Do they even play their own game?

 

I imagine they were thinking:

 

Slight nerf to the only viable pvp build while we slightly buff the two specs that are bad enough nobody specs them. Let's give people some choices. Good thing it is ready for 1.2 since we haven't done anything with maras in the patch notes worth mentioning.

 

6 seconds of 99% reduction is fine with the amount of cc in the game. Bad players will blow cc then the marauder will have a chance to kill something if it didn't run, get heals, has a guard, or someone didn't taunt the angry melee.

 

And 12 seconds of good defense isnt bad when they can get wrecked if they aren't careful since they have to get in melee range, which makes them a nice focus target.

[Moosestick]

Q

Well Luciela certainly left a legacy.

 

That footage was recorded, pre Stim nerf, pre Biochem nerf, pre Surge nerf with excessive buff and power stacking and heavily optimized gear.

 

Those numbers simply aren't possible any more. Please move on.

 

They went possible by sents/maras in the first place, but this is the forum for baseless assumptions.

[Xerain]

I'll be quick:

 

Marauders are indeed harder to kill in PvP than Jug, which is pretty ridiculous, mainly because of cumulative defensive skills which are all usable at once or one after the other with pretty short CD:

 

- Cloak of Pain:

20% reduction for up to 30s; you can untouch the marauder for it waiting to fade, or CC him so your healer doesen't get destroyed with their incredible burst but the problem is there always will be someone to refresh the cloak... full 30s 20% reduction from all damage is itself overpowered and far too much tank survivability for a pure damage dealing class.

 

You realize this is just heavy armor for 30 seconds right?

 

- Saber Ward:

Basically -50% melee damage AND -25% force / tech damage, for 12 seconds; even better than the assassin / consular version wich doesent reduce force and tech damage, even if assassin consular has a tanking tree... Of course, you can cumulate cloak of pain and Saber Ward so this can be even more effective.

 

50% defense chance does not equal to 50% less melee damage, that only works against weapon damage by the way (so snipers, juggs, other maras, pts) You're bad if you're blowing both cloak and saber ward at once.

 

- Force Camouflage:

Huh wat? 45s CD (4s) vanish with speed increase? And people were complaining about 2 mins vanish operatives? Was this really necessary on top of the other things?

 

we only disappear for 4 seconds, it's an escape ability. Not like we can run away and hide then heal up and cloak again to get back in the fight.

 

- Undying rage: My favorite: 5s of invulnerabilty when you are about to die. At this point in PvP, you generally have full resolve bar which means you have a new version of paladin wow bubble, shorter but with absolute no payback; you can rip through a healer or anything while 5 or 6 people will see some "6" "27" "35"' pop on their screen and can do nothing to take you back.

This is simple: no class should survive a full burst from 4 or 5 other players, not even a tank, let alone a very strong damage dealing class.

 

Oh man... it costs half our current hp to blow. Most the time you just die right after anyways.

 

 

On top of that and as already said, these abilities share different cooldowns, for example you can use cloak of pain so your opponents must not touch you for 6s then later undying rage, so they can't do anything again for 5s.

 

you're probably better off taking the 20% damage hit than letting a marauder beat on you for 6 seconds... i've had quite a few people try that with me and they just got smashed straight up because of it.

 

 

Game balance is always about survivability vs damage, if you have a lot of one, you can't have a lot of the other.

Actually marauders currently have both and this is a case of imbalance. Don't forget this class doesen't wear cloth either but medium armor.

 

Medium armor = 25% damage reduction in full bm gear. We have cool downs that help us and nothing more.

 

For people who still think marauders damage stinks, just wait for the ones on your server to gear up. I'm currently rank 60+, pretty well geared and i can assure when marauders get stuff they insanely scale and become unstoppable burst machines, taking people down in 3 or 4 globals and moving on, indeed they are far more deadly than 1.0 operatives.

 

LOL 3 or 4 globals huh? even a rage spec mara can't put out 16k+ damage that fast. Your information is terrible sir.

 

You will see them dominate in the future if nothing is done.

 

 

Yeah whatever.

[zqsd]

Marauders are fine. They can't LoS/pillar hump and pew pew you from range like ranged classes do. They have to be out there in the front line and are very prone to focus fire since they're generally the first thing the enemy sees. If you nerf their survivability, you effectively turn them into deception assassins (not a good thing) with less burst damage and without the ability to start the fight on their terms.

 

If anything, we need to make deception assassins more like marauders.

 

No assassins with mara's survivability would be totally op. Assassins are quite useful in group setup with free taunts and are probably the best 1v1 class in the game.

But they don't bring to the table as much as maras wich have a survivability / damage ratio far better, thanks to the numerous and powerful defensive cooldowns at their disposal.

 

I actually think marauder's damage is fine since they are supposed to be the never-ending damage dealing machine of the game (unlinke deception assassins which are eneragy starved after 15s) but this shouldn't be paired with the best defensive cooldowns of the game; this is wrong, plain and simple.

 

 

@Xerain: quoting a clueless post from a terribad mara won't bring you anywhere.

Edited March 19, 2012 by zqsd

[GrandMike]

All terribad marauders came to defence of their OP class.

 

How cute.

 

Guess what: if you sucked before buff you will suck after it, and you will still be pwned by underpowered classes because - you suck.

Edited March 19, 2012 by GrandMike

[Zafeer]

Your argument gains some ground until you actually look at the abilities tooltips. Each one has a large CD and on top of that, Force Camo got a nerf in damage reductions in 1.2!

I suggest leveling a Marauder/Sentinel and see how many times you die.

 

It sounds like a Marauder was killing you and you were both low, popped Undying Rage and killed you, meanwhile you were pissed because he killed you by using the ability at the PROPER time. Its situational and not nearly as available as you make it out to be.

 

A good argument would be to compare and contrast the abilities of Sorcerors, Imperial Agents, Juggernauts etc and see what abilities they all have.

 

I have a question to you and the others that nodded their heads and smiled.

 

WHAT WOULD YOU DO TO FIX THESE OVERPOWERED ABILITIES? Do you believe that Marauders should be kiteable, with NO defensive CDs or mitigation? It sure sounds like it. Then ask yourself, what defensive CDs, stuns, roots, knockbacks, snares etc does YOUR class have? Marauders don't have CC unless you rollup our "Hamstring" ability and Force Choke which roots us.

[zqsd]

Your argument gains some ground until you actually look at the abilities tooltips. Each one has a large CD and on top of that, Force Camo got a nerf in damage reductions in 1.2!

I suggest leveling a Marauder/Sentinel and see how many times you die.

 

It sounds like a Marauder was killing you and you were both low, popped Undying Rage and killed you, meanwhile you were pissed because he killed you by using the ability at the PROPER time. Its situational and not nearly as available as you make it out to be.

 

A good argument would be to compare and contrast the abilities of Sorcerors, Imperial Agents, Juggernauts etc and see what abilities they all have.

 

I have a question to you and the others that nodded their heads and smiled.

 

WHAT WOULD YOU DO TO FIX THESE OVERPOWERED ABILITIES? Do you believe that Marauders should be kiteable, with NO defensive CDs or mitigation? It sure sounds like it. Then ask yourself, what defensive CDs, stuns, roots, knockbacks, snares etc does YOUR class have? Marauders don't have CC unless you rollup our "Hamstring" ability and Force Choke which roots us.

 

First, camo only took a "nerf" for watchman spec and the % damage reduction part of this skill is not the most useful aspect. Force camo is strong because it can be used to have a guaranted opener on a melee for example, like a second gap closer vs ranged or to cancel a cast...

 

Second, the fact these abiliites have long cooldown (or not, force camo and clock of pain have short cooldown for instance) has nothing to do with the fact they are overpowered for a damage dealing class.

 

Third, this is not about 1v1. I kill marauders 1v1 even with all their cooldowns up (it's just very long and annoying since i have to wait for cloak of pain to fade, THEN i have to wait for undying rage...), the problem is in group pvp which is 95% of pvp time, where they are absolutely overpowered because their survivability is far too high for a such damage dealing class.

 

 

Finally, to answer your question; i would use shared cooldown for these abilities, for example for undying rage and cloak of pain. If you use cloak then you have a 1 min CD on undying rage so you can't have both in one fight.

Right now having to wait 6s for cloak to wear off (or pay the 20% penalty) AND having to wait 5s for undying rage to wear off is too much and it's even more complicated if there are some healers around, especially if you add the 4s (soon 6) of force camo.

Edited March 19, 2012 by zqsd

[Herbertt]

Its a hard class, so expect allot of people have no clue how to really play them till some youtube or a essay is written on what skills to use and when.

 

I really cant say for sure if they are op since I have only fought them in warzones, most die like flys while others tear me a few new holes in seconds, I am a fully tank spec Vanguard.