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Bioware, you're taking too much without giving something back


Chaotika

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By all means nerf our opener down a bit, however.

 

Give the knock-down an additional 50% slow for 3-4 seconds

 

Put a little more power into our blaster whip and suckerpunch and or the proc on suckerpunch to even out our pve dps.

 

If you want to get rid of the burst, put in more of the sustained.

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We already have the lowest sustained damage in the game. Our burst damage is the only thing that made us viable in PvP.

 

We have extremely low survivability. We melt in seconds of focus fire. This already relegates us to the back or perimeter of any engagement. We can't survive multiple enemies even with high expertise and a pocket healer.

 

We are melee but have no gap-closers. Other classes have forward leaps, pulls, sprints, etc. We have none of that.

 

We have no utility. Other classes have pushbacks, leaps, sprints, etc. We have none of those.

 

We are the worst healer. We put out the least HPS of all the healing classes, and lack shields or heavy armor to add to our survivability. We also don't have powerful savior heals like Sages and Commandos.

 

What is our role supposed to be exactly, now that our stealth opener is essentially just a free resolve bar for the enemy and we have no burst to kill them before they heal to full? Doesn't make any sense. Destroying our class for no cause.

 

Now we'll be useless at everything.

Edited by DunsparrowSolo
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We already have the lowest sustained damage in the game. Our burst damage is the only thing that made us viable in PvP.

 

We have extremely low survivability. We melt in seconds of focus fire. This already relegates us to the back or perimeter of any engagement. We can't survive multiple enemies even with high expertise and a pocket healer.

 

We are melee but have no gap-closers. Other classes have forward leaps, pulls, sprints, etc. We have none of that.

 

We have no utility. Other classes have pushbacks, leaps, sprints, etc. We have none of those.

 

We are the worst healer. We put out the least HPS of all the healing classes, and lack shields or heavy armor to add to our survivability. We also don't have powerful savior heals like Sages and Commandos.

 

What is our role supposed to be exactly, now that our stealth opener is essentially just a free resolve bar for the enemy and we have no burst to kill them before they heal to full? Doesn't make any sense. Destroying our class for no cause.

 

Now we'll be useless at everything.

 

^ Bump

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If they were worried about nerfing the class into the ground, they would have:

 

a) allowed us to test these changes with and against lvl 50 champion geared characters on the test server

b) make one damage reduction change at a time, instead of three at once

 

This change is to appease the QQing masses and everyone knows it.

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You know... earlier today it just sort of occurred to me that my strategy as a Scoundrel is basically revolved around the fact that the dudes I lay complete waste to fall into 3 categories.

 

1. They are off doing something all alone - nowhere near their teammates.

2. They are already below 3/4 of their life.

3. All of the above.

 

That's it. That's pretty much my targeting strategy. It's not hard - it's not rocket science. If they were with their group, there's no way i would make it through all of them before my stealth broke. There's just no way. My only option is to go all the way around - which means I am doing absolutely nothing for my team. Those 10-20s I spend JUST maneuvering are critical.

 

It just seems to me, that beyond addressing the Buff problems that render EVERY class: broken - the only solution to this non-issue is for people to stop putting themselves into compromising situations and LEARN TO PLAY WITH THEIR TEAM!

 

It's really just that simple. I see all of these "Proof of Op/Scoundrel Overpowered" videos, and it's always some controlled environment where 1 Scoundrel/Op is attacking 1 guy. And it's never an actual "fight". It's always just a demonstration of the Scoundrel abilities.

 

Well... YEAH - of course we're going to own face in that environment. It meets the standard set by Number 1 above - "They're all alone."

 

Either that or it's a compilation of cherry picked moments where the Scoundrel face rolled someone half their level.

 

I'm done talking about this. I have acquired high blood-pressure over the amount of stupid looming over this subject....

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We already have the lowest sustained damage in the game. Our burst damage is the only thing that made us viable in PvP.

 

We have extremely low survivability. We melt in seconds of focus fire. This already relegates us to the back or perimeter of any engagement. We can't survive multiple enemies even with high expertise and a pocket healer.

 

We are melee but have no gap-closers. Other classes have forward leaps, pulls, sprints, etc. We have none of that.

 

We have no utility. Other classes have pushbacks, leaps, sprints, etc. We have none of those.

 

We are the worst healer. We put out the least HPS of all the healing classes, and lack shields or heavy armor to add to our survivability. We also don't have powerful savior heals like Sages and Commandos.

 

What is our role supposed to be exactly, now that our stealth opener is essentially just a free resolve bar for the enemy and we have no burst to kill them before they heal to full? Doesn't make any sense. Destroying our class for no cause.

 

Now we'll be useless at everything.

 

Someone give this bro an award. Best way to describe the current situation as a scoundrel. I've been trying to test out Dirty Fighting and I can't bring myself to like its play style. I don't mind healing, but no one wants me for healing anyways, when they can bring better suited people for the task.

 

What SHOULD I be doing?

Edited by Fragthekitten
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We already have the lowest sustained damage in the game. Our burst damage is the only thing that made us viable in PvP.

 

We have extremely low survivability. We melt in seconds of focus fire. This already relegates us to the back or perimeter of any engagement. We can't survive multiple enemies even with high expertise and a pocket healer.

 

We are melee but have no gap-closers. Other classes have forward leaps, pulls, sprints, etc. We have none of that.

 

We have no utility. Other classes have pushbacks, leaps, sprints, etc. We have none of those.

 

We are the worst healer. We put out the least HPS of all the healing classes, and lack shields or heavy armor to add to our survivability. We also don't have powerful savior heals like Sages and Commandos.

 

What is our role supposed to be exactly, now that our stealth opener is essentially just a free resolve bar for the enemy and we have no burst to kill them before they heal to full? Doesn't make any sense. Destroying our class for no cause.

 

Now we'll be useless at everything.

 

The survivability is not an issue, its how you specced yourself that is the problem. Here is a basic spec to compensate for the new incoming nerf:

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#701MccMzZGhGodkrrc.1

 

1st) Drop K.O. As it stands now, when you hit someone who is moving with K.O. they warp and it takes 1 to 2 seconds before you can reengage. Every scoundrel is aware of this. If K.O. is being taken down to 1.5 sec, its going to be basically a useless ability due to warps. Without K.O. you don't have to deal with warps and can get in a second to third attack in usually before your opponent realizes whats going on AND you can apply a dirty kick to stun them.

 

2nd) You pick up:

-4% damage reduction (think of it as a 4% buff to expertise just w/o the damage)

-6% bonus to endurance (besides breaking 17K hps easy now, you also get a bonus to the amount of heals returned by Surprise Recovery)

-2 Second Underworld Healing that grants upper hand

-3% bonus to healing + 6% bonus w/ upper hand

 

3rd) You have shields, you have dodge, you have flash bangs, you have dirty kick, you have tendon blast + root. You have to use your head and know how to run away from a fight if the RNG goes bad on you.

 

4th) You always fight with 2 med packs + Pugnacity on you. Every second you are healing about 750 hps factoring in crits on average. You cast med pack instantly and it can't be interupted the same goes w/ Pugnacity.

 

Your overall damage goes down, but your survivability is through the roof. And you can easilly last long enough to pop Disappearing act in 2 minutes if you are waiting for the cool down and its 1 on 1.

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Knights of the Old Sages and Sorcs.

 

Bioware wants the 2% of the playerbase to switch out of scoundrel and operative and switch to the other stealth class that is more solid, has sustained damage, and doesnt rely on gimmicks like stealth openers

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I like it how most rogue movies show someone with stims, adrenalines and other buffs jumping and chaincritting someone who's freshly gotten to lvl 50 for maximum ambush numbers. They only show that 1 jump, not the parts that happend -after- the burst. Which is rogues doing insignificant out-of-stealth damage, while taking it up the *censored* from warriors or BH/troopers (who hit almost as hard as stealthed rogues) face to face without even needing stealth.

 

Biggest buff I'd like to see is the infuriating amount of time you spend in combat if you shoot someone once without killing them. I've spend over 20 seconds in voidstar corners stuck in combat because the game thinks "fck it you ain't stealthing anywhere, better prepare your fists for that incoming marauder who will chop you in half in seconds btw, hf!"

 

Even after these nerfs I'm still going to play my scoundrel hoping for better tomorrow.

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The survivability is not an issue, its how you specced yourself that is the problem. Here is a basic spec to compensate for the new incoming nerf:

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#701MccMzZGhGodkrrc.1

 

1st) Drop K.O. As it stands now, when you hit someone who is moving with K.O. they warp and it takes 1 to 2 seconds before you can reengage. Every scoundrel is aware of this. If K.O. is being taken down to 1.5 sec, its going to be basically a useless ability due to warps. Without K.O. you don't have to deal with warps and can get in a second to third attack in usually before your opponent realizes whats going on AND you can apply a dirty kick to stun them.

 

2nd) You pick up:

-4% damage reduction (think of it as a 4% buff to expertise just w/o the damage)

-6% bonus to endurance (besides breaking 17K hps easy now, you also get a bonus to the amount of heals returned by Surprise Recovery)

-2 Second Underworld Healing that grants upper hand

-3% bonus to healing + 6% bonus w/ upper hand

 

3rd) You have shields, you have dodge, you have flash bangs, you have dirty kick, you have tendon blast + root. You have to use your head and know how to run away from a fight if the RNG goes bad on you.

 

4th) You always fight with 2 med packs + Pugnacity on you. Every second you are healing about 750 hps factoring in crits on average. You cast med pack instantly and it can't be interupted the same goes w/ Pugnacity.

 

Your overall damage goes down, but your survivability is through the roof. And you can easilly last long enough to pop Disappearing act in 2 minutes if you are waiting for the cool down and its 1 on 1.

 

If you're going to spec some into Sawbones to heal yourself, wouldn't you want to take Survivor's Scars in Scrapper T1? Both sides of that skill should apply, as in you get up to +3% healing done and +9% healing to yourself.

Edited by dizzyMongoose
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okay lets get back to the core tennets of the problem:

 

fact 1: currently Ops rely on burst damage to kill opponents

fact 2: that burst damage is being taken down dramatically

fact 3: out of stealth op damage is extremely lack luster

fact 4: we lack a gap closer to ease the periods in which we can't stealth

 

Obviously current burst is a too much and if you people actually read most of the conversation going on there are hardly any of us crying to stay exactly as we are, However without some kind of compensation we will be dramatically crippled after an opener.

 

so, lets change our sustained damage or our ability to skirmish out of stealth yes? There are a bunch of cool ways we could do this.

 

Firstly, lacking info we can assume that K.O is still full resolve. As such it can be safely removed it serves no purpose and is actually detrimental to use.

 

Instead lets take this chance to put in some sustained power high in the tree. For example why not a talent that further increases blaster whip's damage? Or even an ability to give more punch to Quick shot which would make it a lot more of a go to skirmish ability.

 

Secondly, you took away flying fists proc damage to alleviate some burst. Perhaps with the burst toned down dramatically it's time to put it back in a more sustained format? say raise it 30-40% to add a little bit of oomph when were stuck punching, maybe even instead give it a buff that when procced allows the use of back stab/blast out of position for a limited time?

 

thirdly, smuggle. This ability doesn't deserve a spot on my bar, it screws me over ironically enough and just aggravates your team. So if your looking for a slot to add some kind of utility replace it with that sorry piece of junk. In conjunction with some of our out of stealth power perhaps even change it to a "shadow step ability" or make it a proc that allows the use of shoot first / hidden strike in combat on a 3 minute cooldown.

 

Lastly our PvP dps set bonuses are sadly sadly lacking. I would really like to see them changed to something a little more linked to our identity and useful. For example:

 

2 pc: Increases damage dealt by Blaster whip and quick shot by 10%

 

4 pc: adds 3 seconds to flachette/ acid blade. and or a portion of the armor ignore back.

 

Take these with a grain of salt obviously i don't want all of them but if bioware is sure they don;t want me popping in and out of stealth i would like to see unstealthed combat given a substantial boost.

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If you're going to spec some into Sawbones to heal yourself, wouldn't you want to take Survivor's Scars in Scrapper T1? Both sides of that skill should apply, as in you get up to +3% healing done and +9% healing to yourself.

 

You give up 6% bonus to endurance to get the bonus to healing on survivors scars. Having a higher base HP gives you a leg up when dealing with burst damage for PVP AND the increased endurance also increases the amount of HP's you are healed with from surprise come back.

 

If you are running med pack on you it should be around 2.5K hps over 18 seconds. Survivors Scars is 12% total bonus to healing, so over 18 seconds that would be 2.5K * 12% = 300 more hit points. Lets say you are a moderately geared 50 scoundrel at 15.5K HP's unbuffed, + the 6% to HP's that gives you an extra 930 HP's, not including stamina stims that you are using. Fully buffed + the 6% endurance buff I was sitting at 17.3K hp's.

 

Survivors Scars is good, but for PVP, I'd have to give up the endurance buff to pick it up and I just can't justify giving up the higher base HP's. Especially with the prevalence of CC in this game and now Scoundrels burst getting a fairly large hit, I'd rather have more HP's to be up in the fight now.

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okay lets get back to the core tennets of the problem:

 

fact 1: currently Ops rely on burst damage to kill opponents

fact 2: that burst damage is being taken down dramatically

fact 3: out of stealth op damage is extremely lack luster

fact 4: we lack a gap closer to ease the periods in which we can't stealth

 

Obviously current burst is a too much and if you people actually read most of the conversation going on there are hardly any of us crying to stay exactly as we are, However without some kind of compensation we will be dramatically crippled after an opener.

 

so, lets change our sustained damage or our ability to skirmish out of stealth yes? There are a bunch of cool ways we could do this.

 

Firstly, lacking info we can assume that K.O is still full resolve. As such it can be safely removed it serves no purpose and is actually detrimental to use.

 

Instead lets take this chance to put in some sustained power high in the tree. For example why not a talent that further increases blaster whip's damage? Or even an ability to give more punch to Quick shot which would make it a lot more of a go to skirmish ability.

 

Secondly, you took away flying fists proc damage to alleviate some burst. Perhaps with the burst toned down dramatically it's time to put it back in a more sustained format? say raise it 30-40% to add a little bit of oomph when were stuck punching, maybe even instead give it a buff that when procced allows the use of back stab/blast out of position for a limited time?

 

thirdly, smuggle. This ability doesn't deserve a spot on my bar, it screws me over ironically enough and just aggravates your team. So if your looking for a slot to add some kind of utility replace it with that sorry piece of junk. In conjunction with some of our out of stealth power perhaps even change it to a "shadow step ability" or make it a proc that allows the use of shoot first / hidden strike in combat on a 3 minute cooldown.

 

Lastly our PvP dps set bonuses are sadly sadly lacking. I would really like to see them changed to something a little more linked to our identity and useful. For example:

 

2 pc: Increases damage dealt by Blaster whip and quick shot by 10%

 

4 pc: adds 3 seconds to flachette/ acid blade. and or a portion of the armor ignore back.

 

Take these with a grain of salt obviously i don't want all of them but if bioware is sure they don;t want me popping in and out of stealth i would like to see unstealthed combat given a substantial boost.

 

Smuggle is on a separate stealth timer than stealth. So, when you are in stealth you will be looking for opponents who have low health to pop a shoot first and a back blast to get a quick kill. Meanwhile you are now out of combat but waiting for Stealth to pop, however if you use Smuggle like most Scoundrels do, you can instantly pop yourself back into stealth.

 

Smuggle is a damn good ability to use for PVP.

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Smuggle is on a separate stealth timer than stealth. So, when you are in stealth you will be looking for opponents who have low health to pop a shoot first and a back blast to get a quick kill. Meanwhile you are now out of combat but waiting for Stealth to pop, however if you use Smuggle like most Scoundrels do, you can instantly pop yourself back into stealth.

 

Smuggle is a damn good ability to use for PVP.

 

it requires you to not be in combat.....

 

which is the same as just you know pressing the stealth that doesn't just last 12 seconds..?

 

i have NEVER had the problem of being such a monster in the 50's bracket that my problem was waiting on the stealth timer.

Edited by Chaotika
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it requires you to not be in combat.....

 

which is the same as just you know pressing the stealth that doesn't just last 12 seconds..?

 

i have NEVER had the problem of being such a monster in the 50's bracket that my problem was waiting on the stealth timer.

 

Someone must like going after targets with full health rather helping their team and taking out people at 50% or less health already being worked by their team. When you work as a team in a warzone, you tend to kill people before your stealth timer has had time to pop again, and using smuggle puts you right back into stealth before you can be force dotted or attacked and put into combat.

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Someone must like going after targets with full health rather helping their team and taking out people at 50% or less health already being worked by their team. When you work as a team in a warzone, you tend to kill people before your stealth timer has had time to pop again, and using smuggle puts you right back into stealth before you can be force dotted or attacked and put into combat.

 

Sorry, but you are really making assumptions here. In order for this scenario to work, your team must be zerging one single player down, while no one else is around or smart enough to engage you in combat.

 

I am beginning to think that alot of your suggestions are based on premade vs pug fights.

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Sorry, but you are really making assumptions here. In order for this scenario to work, your team must be zerging one single player down, while no one else is around or smart enough to engage you in combat.

 

I am beginning to think that alot of your suggestions are based on premade vs pug fights.

 

Nope PUG's vs PUGS, Premade vs PUGs and Premade vs Premade. If you aren't calling out healers and directing people to kill them for instance or if you can't stay stealthed and target those players your group is working, then you are doing something wrong. With all your cool downs, if you consistently target the players whose health is low you should be able to get three kills and three stealths before you are waiting for your stealth to repop.

 

On the other hand if yo want to play hero and go after the guys who are full health, good luck. It was bad before the nerf because other players would come to their aid and you'd have to pop disapearring act and lose a kill. Now with the decrease in burst damage and CC time from K.O. you really have to pay attention to who your group is killing and focus on them.

 

Maybe you should speak up more in PUG's, I sure as hell did when there were problems and it pissed off some, on the other hand we also won a lot when people started calling targets and calling for help on defense.

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Coming from someone whose actually played a scoundrel for a good amount of time? The nerfs aren't that bad at all. People seem to be forgetting that shoot first - back blast aren't the only abilities we have in PVP. You're also able to Dirty Kick someone right afterwards if you need more stun time.

 

Scoundrels/Ops are still going to be able to kill people in PVP, they're just going to have to do something other than press two buttons.

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Coming from someone whose actually played a scoundrel for a good amount of time? The nerfs aren't that bad at all. People seem to be forgetting that shoot first - back blast aren't the only abilities we have in PVP. You're also able to Dirty Kick someone right afterwards if you need more stun time.

 

Scoundrels/Ops are still going to be able to kill people in PVP, they're just going to have to do something other than press two buttons.

 

You ever hear of a resolve bar?

And if you think the people complaining about these huge nerfs are 2-button-pressers, you're just trolling and being rude. Direct that attitude towards the mercs and sages.

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Coming from someone whose actually played a scoundrel for a good amount of time? The nerfs aren't that bad at all. People seem to be forgetting that shoot first - back blast aren't the only abilities we have in PVP. You're also able to Dirty Kick someone right afterwards if you need more stun time.

 

Scoundrels/Ops are still going to be able to kill people in PVP, they're just going to have to do something other than press two buttons.

 

No.

 

Before Scoundrels could come in, attack someone whose weakened with a large first hit + a 3 Second stun that can be reused any time from stealth. As long as the player popped stealth if up or smuggle when not up they could reuse a 3 sec stun again and then pop disappearing act and reuse that 3 sec stun again. Having that quick to reuse 3 sec stun form of crowd control was the issue, it wasn't the large front load damage from Shoot First, Bioware just missed it and screwed up with the nerf. BW should have removed K.O.

 

Reducing the base damage by 20% for shoot first is a huge nerf especially considering you required the RNG to give you a crit or you to do well against a single.

Lets say your base pre-nerf shoot first is 2300 and after nerf it is now 1840 and that you have 80% surge. Fighting an equally expertised player in the old way you would hit for 4140, now you will hit for 3312. Now lets say the nerf is still in place and you add in the 15% expertise buff to your base damage (its now 2116) with the same surge of 80% you are sitting at a crit damage of 3808.

 

So in short:

pre-nerf 2300 base damage w/ 80% surge = 4140 crit damage

post-nerf 2300 base damage is now 1840 damage w/80% surge = 3312 crit damage

post-nerf 1849 damage w/ 15% expertise buff = 2116 w/80% surge = 3808 crit damage

Edited by torhent
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Well I say they should nerf the pvp gear, after all as a fresh 50 scrapper I can't kill anything while all the over geared 50s are 2 shooting me. It is so unfair!:rolleyes:

 

In seriousness I thing if they are going to take all the close burst damage they should give us more range, make back-blast omnidirectional, more slows that don't top the resolve bar, and faster dissapearing act cooldown to offset our reduced survivability. The whole package of which was to basically kill them before they kill you.

 

I will still be a scoundrel since my guild needs a good healer, but I guess I better start leveling my sage now. As for all the players cheering, especially the certain force users, just remember that the nerf bat hits everyone eventually.

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No.

 

Before Scoundrels could come in, attack someone whose weakened with a large first hit + a 3 Second stun that can be reused any time from stealth. As long as the player popped stealth if up or smuggle when not up they could reuse a 3 sec stun again and then pop disappearing act and reuse that 3 sec stun again. Having that quick to reuse 3 sec stun form of crowd control was the issue, it wasn't the large front load damage from Shoot First, Bioware just missed it and screwed up with the nerf. BW should have removed K.O.

 

Reducing the base damage by 20% for shoot first is a huge nerf especially considering you required the RNG to give you a crit or you to do well against a single.

Lets say your base pre-nerf shoot first is 2300 and after nerf it is now 1840 and that you have 80% surge. Fighting an equally expertised player in the old way you would hit for 4140, now you will hit for 3312. Now lets say the nerf is still in place and you add in the 15% expertise buff to your base damage (its now 2116) with the same surge of 80% you are sitting at a crit damage of 3808.

 

So in short:

pre-nerf 2300 base damage w/ 80% surge = 4140 crit damage

post-nerf 2300 base damage is now 1840 damage w/80% surge = 3312 crit damage

post-nerf 1849 damage w/ 15% expertise buff = 2116 w/80% surge = 3808 crit damage

 

Do those numbers take into account the 50% (soon to be 30%) armor penetration?

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Do those numbers take into account the 50% (soon to be 30%) armor penetration?

 

Unless you are re stealthing and opening onto a new target in the time before the armor pen buff goes away, I doubt it.

 

You have to remember the armor pen buff is given after we shoot first or back blast with fletchette round. So normally it does not apply to shoot first.

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