PvP 'DPS' Immortal Build 32/7/2

[dirtyv]

Nice guide for sith warrior pvp

[Schwarzwald]

No offense OP, but I'm utterly baffled by your continued insistence that you have BETTER damage than a pure dps vengeance spec and that pooled hatred stacks NEVER build.

 

As a juggernaut that's played all 3 specs, I can tell you now that nearly every class you get into melee with will apply SOME sort of snare onto you. Secondly, you purport that rage generation in SORESU is higher than a vengeance player? I... don't even know what to say.

 

You make valid points about locking players out but the thing is, you don't really take into account the fact that there are classes that are far better than juggernauts at doing the same thing. Yes, they are squishier, but if you're going to be running that way you might as well just run in full tank and guard someone.

 

As someone that has PLAYED this spec and other specs in fully optimized Battlemaster gear (with orange modded belts/bracers) and with GOOD players (and I consider myself damn good too) , I can tell you now that your damage will be considerably lower. Prepatch it was possible to have very high burst damage due to surge, now it barely scratches my back as vengeance with regards to overall damage. Even in group play, it simply overlaps with roles that other classes perform better.

 

Because I change specs between the two and there is only like a 50k difference in damage done. Where I do 200k in immortal and 250k as vengeance. I consider that the same in the grand scale of burstiness, which is the metric of PvP damage.

 

Soresu Immortal Rage Generation is better then Soresu Vengeance. If you are disputing this then you havn't played the spec at all or you havn't managed your CD's properly. Sweeping Fury amongst other things you can do in your play style will yield so much rage that you will essentially be near rage capped while in a thick battle.

 

Going as Shien in a warzone is essentially a death wish, if you are having a good experience with Shien Vengeance in warzones then perhaps you are overestimating the skill of your enemies. The only times you should ever be outside Soresu is during your first and initial rage dump, any other time after that and you are just setting yourself up to get killed really, really fast and skills like self Intercede are not going to help you against other players who know how to peel.

[Dooger]

Being on the same server on opposite faction, I have a few comments.

This would have been great post without the dumb comments.

 

 

He does a good job with cc, his damage is weak on anything of import.

 

Lots of other players without the same gear/skill have followed the build and make warzone wins super easy. You really really dont want more than one of this spec in a warzone.

 

The part on describing the build is great, saying other builds don't win is stupid.

 

Esp playing a toon that a healer can flat out ignore... silly.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Dooger

[Skwinkles]

It's a shame this wonderful thread had to turn into an immo vs veng argument. We have plenty of threads like this already, leave this one alone as it was meant to be: a spec/gearing method utilizing the immo tree and all info you could want about it.

[Dracosz]

Because I change specs between the two and there is only like a 50k difference in damage done. Where I do 200k in immortal and 250k as vengeance. I consider that the same in the grand scale of burstiness, which is the metric of PvP damage.

 

Soresu Immortal Rage Generation is better then Soresu Vengeance. If you are disputing this then you havn't played the spec at all or you havn't managed your CD's properly. Sweeping Fury amongst other things you can do in your play style will yield so much rage that you will essentially be near rage capped while in a thick battle.

 

Going as Shien in a warzone is essentially a death wish, if you are having a good experience with Shien Vengeance in warzones then perhaps you are overestimating the skill of your enemies. The only times you should ever be outside Soresu is during your first and initial rage dump, any other time after that and you are just setting yourself up to get killed really, really fast and skills like self Intercede are not going to help you against other players who know how to peel.

 

If you're getting killed in shien form then you're not playing the positioning game correctly, plain and simple. The hallmark of any good dps juggernaut is knowing when to swap to soresu and defend, sure, but that doesn't mean that it should be the only place to be. If you're specced to do damage, you should be doing as much damage as you possibly can. Also, if you're only doing 250k damage as vengeance, you're clearly not trying to play the spec correctly, I can easily hit 450k-600k in wzs when I queue with a full group and 300-400k when solo whilst still being able to guard if need be (mostly near objectives and whatnot.

 

I've never been a proponent of Soresu vengeance where you skip shien, it's always been an awkward playstyle. I have been a proponent of the 7/34/0 dps spec which is a VERY strong pressure spec, yes sentinels and marauders can apply similar pressure, but they also don't have the mobility we do or the ability to burst like we do (and I CAN burst decently well as vengeance). Also, I don't think you're using the world "peel" correctly. Do you mean CC and snare?

 

 

 

It's a shame this wonderful thread had to turn into an immo vs veng argument. We have plenty of threads like this already, leave this one alone as it was meant to be: a spec/gearing method utilizing the immo tree and all info you could want about it.

 

 

Ask the OP to stop trying to portray the other specs as ineffective and worthless then. This is an open forum and he's effectively cleared the gates for debate. It's your prerogative to discuss gearing and whatnot, it was his to try to insinuate that the other specs don't have a place and ours to try to defend against very overarching statements.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Dracosz

[Schwarzwald]

If you're getting killed in shien form then you're not playing the positioning game correctly, plain and simple. The hallmark of any good dps juggernaut is knowing when to swap to soresu and defend, sure, but that doesn't mean that it should be the only place to be. If you're specced to do damage, you should be doing as much damage as you possibly can. Also, if you're only doing 250k damage as vengeance, you're clearly not trying to play the spec correctly, I can easily hit 450k-600k in wzs when I queue with a full group and 300-400k when solo whilst still being able to guard if need be (mostly near objectives and whatnot.

 

I've never been a proponent of Soresu vengeance where you skip shien, it's always been an awkward playstyle. I have been a proponent of the 7/34/0 dps spec which is a VERY strong pressure spec, yes sentinels and marauders can apply similar pressure, but they also don't have the mobility we do or the ability to burst like we do (and I CAN burst decently well as vengeance). Also, I don't think you're using the world "peel" correctly. Do you mean CC and snare?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ask the OP to stop trying to portray the other specs as ineffective and worthless then. This is an open forum and he's effectively cleared the gates for debate. It's your prerogative to discuss gearing and whatnot, it was his to try to insinuate that the other specs don't have a place and ours to try to defend against very overarching statements.

 

screenshots plox on that kind of damage, because I have only never broken 300k on veng only in a few rare instances on Voidstar. Maybe my veng is so low because our server is saturated with troopers, and veng really really sucks against them.

 

But maybe this wouldn't be so confusing if I didn't have 3 different people at once interpretting what I said as different. If I made a typo then I'm sorry, but my stance against vengeance is just its limited survivability and lack of control. I got all crazy vindictive because I thought someone was trying to tell me that Soresu Vengeance had better rage generation then Soresu Immo, which just doesn't seem possible given the skill sheet the two specs have. I agree with you on the damage, but Vengeance quickly becomes a waste of time if they have well geared tanks that know what they are doing, at least in my experience.

 

But to be honest, this has happened before, you say this is a grea thread, but maybe somewhere on page 15 or 20 people started to come in here to discuss why they think other specs are better. The only time I see that the discussion for other specs in this thread is that if they have an overlapping purpose with the build I describe. When I said other specs were worthless, I was speaking in forms of utility. Sure, Rage has its purpose in clearing out a room and Vengeance has the sustain to take out pesky healers if you stay on target, but they don't have the same role as Immo. Sorry if my angry attempts at keeping the thread on topic hasn't worked, I'll keep that in check.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Schwarzwald

[Schwarzwald]

Being on the same server on opposite faction, I have a few comments.

This would have been great post without the dumb comments.

 

 

He does a good job with cc, his damage is weak on anything of import.

 

Lots of other players without the same gear/skill have followed the build and make warzone wins super easy. You really really dont want more than one of this spec in a warzone.

 

The part on describing the build is great, saying other builds don't win is stupid.

 

Esp playing a toon that a healer can flat out ignore... silly.

 

 

Something I havn't thought of, which may explain why I consider other specs worthless. Is that I consider Immortal Jug (with offensive gear, atleast) to be the best counter to Jugs and heavy hitters of the team. You can dance circles around an enemy juggernaut and keep them locked down for a good a mount of time, preventing their damage from being done.

 

A lot of my force pushes I use are to remove people from combat. There are some interesting places where you can force push in alderaan at the right spots and push people over walls, removing them from the main battle for about 30 seconds. And then there is the obvious stuff you can do in Huttball with push.

 

Honestly, when you have teammates with rolling with an immortal jug as described in this build, you are a serious threat to healers. If you set ground rules for your teammates not to resolve cap healers and such so that the jug can take care of interrupt rotations, then the healer isn't going to get anything off besides instant casts.

 

 

You are right though, there shouldn't be more then one person filling this role within a warzone. Personally when it comes to rated Warzones, I may only roll Immortal Utility within Huttball all the time, and then maybe in Alderaan on certain occasions, I will be running Rage on Voidstar/Alderaaan. Because the gameplay on those maps is so.... uninspiring? Its best to just roll as a bulldozers at times.

 

 

But really, this whole thread is bound to change with 1.2 Who knows, maybe they will make warzleaders gear worth having?

Edited March 7, 2012 by Schwarzwald

[Dracosz]

screenshots plox on that kind of damage, because I have only never broken 300k on veng only in a few rare instances on Voidstar. Maybe my veng is so low because our server is saturated with troopers, and veng really really sucks against them.

 

But maybe this wouldn't be so confusing if I didn't have 3 different people at once interpretting what I said as different. If I made a typo then I'm sorry, but my stance against vengeance is just its limited survivability and lack of control. I got all crazy vindictive because I thought someone was trying to tell me that Soresu Vengeance had better rage generation then Soresu Immo, which just doesn't seem possible given the skill sheet the two specs have. I agree with you on the damage, but Vengeance quickly becomes a waste of time if they have well geared tanks that know what they are doing, at least in my experience.

 

But to be honest, this has happened before, you say this is a grea thread, but maybe somewhere on page 15 or 20 people started to come in here to discuss why they think other specs are better. The only time I see that the discussion for other specs in this thread is that if they have an overlapping purpose with the build I describe. When I said other specs were worthless, I was speaking in forms of utility. Sure, Rage has its purpose in clearing out a room and Vengeance has the sustain to take out pesky healers if you stay on target, but they don't have the same role as Immo. Sorry if my angry attempts at keeping the thread on topic hasn't worked, I'll keep that in check.

 

 

Here's a pair, both post surge nerf.

 

http://imgur.com/a/23FC4

 

If you want to watch through my streams, I have games like that pretty often (not all the time since I solo queue a lot) but enough.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Dracosz

[Schwarzwald]

Here's a pair, both post surge nerf.

 

http://imgur.com/a/23FC4

 

If you want to watch through my streams, I have games like that pretty often (not all the time since I solo queue a lot) but enough.

 

Eh, nothing to amazing once I saw how much healing you were getting and how bad the enemy team was. Its good for vengeance though.

 

but gj, i hate vengeance to much to even attempt to do that much damage as it

Edited March 8, 2012 by Schwarzwald

[Hyyuga]

Here's a pair, both post surge nerf.

 

http://imgur.com/a/23FC4

 

If you want to watch through my streams, I have games like that pretty often (not all the time since I solo queue a lot) but enough.

 

the music is too loud, one can hardly understand your voice and thats a pity since u seem to be explaining things all the time

[Tempsticks]

You have more survivability in Immortal, your stuns are a big part of that and having 2 instant cast stuns is huge. The DPS in Vengeance is the same as Immortal. The only time Vengeance DPS tops Immortals is when you are just standing there beating on people who are standing still, which never happens (unless you are immortal!). Otherwise, Immortal offers the same burst potential in PvP for a much greater utility in PvP.

 

Your OP is very eye opening to me as far as roles in this game are concerned. People don't seem to understand that if you're comparing two specs, and one is just slightly more damage than another, but the other allows you to support the entire team by doing something like taking one healer out of the fight while you and the real dps on your team burst down the squishier or unguarded healer, you're doing a much, much better job than just going for the most uninterrupted dps you can put on a target.

 

Against the inevitable multi heal with guard gimmick teams that are going to be a big part of the rated scene, it's not going to be about doing slightly more spike damage, it's going to be which team can best control their opponents while pursuing the objectives, and which team is better at setting up kills on healers, or kills on their dps while the healers are cc'd.

 

The best players are going to be the team players, players that spec around their roles in their teams.

[Schwarzwald]

Bump

 

Already researching what this spec will transform into when 1.2 hits, but I can definitely tell you it will include single saber mastery.

 

I'm considering just making it a new post, since I can give it a more accurate title and make some other changes that I cannot do through editing.

 

 

1.2 Get ready for total decimation.

[Wehs]

Bump

 

Already researching what this spec will transform into when 1.2 hits, but I can definitely tell you it will include single saber mastery.

 

I'm considering just making it a new post, since I can give it a more accurate title and make some other changes that I cannot do through editing.

 

 

1.2 Get ready for total decimation.

 

Ooh please do so. Currently using your spec with dps gear, not too shaby, just have to get better gear. I might go and experiment with 14/27/0 for a little and see what happens, but I'm getting my gear with this spec in mind. Thanks for the info you posted.

[KetsuiTachi]

Can you perhaps give a breakdown of suggested skill trees at various level milestones? I.E. Level 20, 30, and 40? I'm level 20 and am a little unsure where those first 10 points should go.

 

here is what i have at 20 http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101oZhMRZM.1

[Dracosz]

You're going to have a hell of a time locking people down with this spec in 1.2 if the crash change is automatic (IE autotrained). If not, then it'll be pretty much untouched with a lot of bloat removal helping even more

[Ghostlink]

So I decided to try your build and I have to say it's a lot of fun. I'm still constantly at the top of the scoreboard as I was with Rage but I can support my team much better, and the DPS is pretty solid for such a tanky build. The stuns and survivability more than make up for the loss of DPS imo. Hope to see a new build for 1.2, keep up the good work! Edited March 26, 2012 by Ghostlink

[Schwarzwald]

You're going to have a hell of a time locking people down with this spec in 1.2 if the crash change is automatic (IE autotrained). If not, then it'll be pretty much untouched with a lot of bloat removal helping even more

 

Single Saber Mastery will be interesting to have in Soresu as well

[xXJukeXx]

Why does no one set a point to crash? It stuns the enemy for 2 sec

[Olibb]

Why does no one set a point to crash? It stuns the enemy for 2 sec

 

Because we don't want to resolve cap someone by mistake. We already have choke / backhand as stuns so the extra one isn't really needed.

[Dracosz]

Single Saber Mastery will be interesting to have in Soresu as well

 

It might boost the damage *slightly* =P

[Khalitzbur]

I play with this hybrid build: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101frhfzMbkzMZhRr0r.1

(soresu form + shield + all dps gear)

 

I think 31/8/2 is bad choice, i play a lot with all possible builds and i can say even full DPS gear immortal tank, is still a tank / support dps, not a DPS. So taking crushing blow talent is comlpete waste (sweeping fury talent lol) . You need to be mobile, always ready to action, unstoppable - and a pitty weak 15s. cd attack does not help you.

[Schwarzwald]

I play with this hybrid build: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101frhfzMbkzMZhRr0r.1

(soresu form + shield + all dps gear)

 

I think 31/8/2 is bad choice, i play a lot with all possible builds and i can say even full DPS gear immortal tank, is still a tank / support dps, not a DPS. So taking crushing blow talent is comlpete waste (sweeping fury talent lol) . You need to be mobile, always ready to action, unstoppable - and a pitty weak 15s. cd attack does not help you.

 

What ever suits you, man.

[Dracosz]

I play with this hybrid build: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101frhfzMbkzMZhRr0r.1

(soresu form + shield + all dps gear)

 

I think 31/8/2 is bad choice, i play a lot with all possible builds and i can say even full DPS gear immortal tank, is still a tank / support dps, not a DPS. So taking crushing blow talent is comlpete waste (sweeping fury talent lol) . You need to be mobile, always ready to action, unstoppable - and a pitty weak 15s. cd attack does not help you.

 

Crushing blow hits pretty damn hard even after the surge nerf (I've had 4.8k crits with it w/ adrenals/relics up). The hybrid spec simply does NOT have access to impale, so you might as well toss the 4 points back for it. Unstoppable is nice, but it's not THAT nice. In addition, crash is awful and has horrible interactions with unstoppable and resolve, I don't know why you would consider picking it up for PvP.

 

 

Schwar'z spec is pretty much the best spec you can pick up as immortal if you want to deal damage, hands down.

[Sashaz]

Schwar'z spec is pretty much the best spec you can pick up as immortal if you want to deal damage, hands down.

 

Mmmm....

 

I run a similar build with little differences :

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101crGcuMbouRZhMRZM.1

 

+6% déf (+12% déf) is not negligeable if you consider the extra damage of retaliation off GCD & extra survibility vs certain class.

 

This one can be cool too if you're smart enough to manage wisely your focus.... oups ...rage :

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101crGcuMbouRZhMZG.1

 

I wonder if the 6% extra crit damage on force attack could be much more appreciated than the 6% bonus on strenght because of the strenght's DR on %crit on high value...

Edited March 26, 2012 by Sashaz

[Schwarzwald]

Mmmm....

 

I run a similar build with little differences :

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101crGcuMbouRZhMRZM.1

 

+6% déf (+12% déf) is not negligeable if you consider the extra damage of retaliation off GCD & extra survibility vs certain class.

 

This one can be cool too if you're smart enough to manage wisely your focus.... oups ...rage :

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101crGcuMbouRZhMZG.1

 

I wonder if the 6% extra crit damage on force attack could be much more appreciated than the 6% bonus on strenght because of the strenght's DR on %crit on high value...

 

TBH I think dreadnaught is better then the crit chance on force attacks.

 

Remember that STR increases power and crit, and if you stack alot of STR then the effect is only multiplied.

 

As for the 6% defense, its not that its negligeable, its that I would prefer putting points into other places.

 

When it comes to 'rage management' in this build, there is one things you want to keep in mind. Generate as much as you can and spend it as fast as you can. You have a plethora of abilities taht can save and dump rage, s you best get htem and use them if you want to maximize your DPS so that you atleast make an attempt at keeping up with the rest of the DPS on your team