For everyone complaining...

[crushingbush]

The hallmark of an ignorant self-entitled complainer: the propensity to generalization when posting.

 

the specifics are all over this forum in thousands of threads, but one huge f-up is the UI... I mean seriously who could possibly defend that with a straight face. lol

[plosky]

Just to clarify my belief. The complaining is absolutely outrageous. Note I said "complaining." Not constructive feedback. I absolutely agree with people who report problems and bugs in an ADULT way, with good suggestions on how to fix it. I mean, I like the game, but it DOES have it's fair share of problems. But when I look at these forums, I don't see constructive feedback, I see complaining and whining. That's all

[Cubanito-]

Speaking as a developer/designer, that article is 100% correct. Unfortunately, a lot of gamers are young, inexperienced and often have an exagerated sense of entitlement and so will most likely not really understand it, or agree with it. And they tend to be the most vocal. So you get a lot of the forum posts that we see: abusive, caustic and non-constructive.

 

Posts like: "The devs need to get their heads out of their asses" do not help anyone. They really don't. And it always makes me a bit sad when I see them. They infact are counter productive as it is demoralizing to anyone that is on the receiving end. And the last thing one should do is to take the wind out the sails of the person that is working to provide you with something you want. Abuse does not motivate, no matter what an olympic gymnastics coach might think.

 

I would encourage anyone before posting to try to imagine yourself on the receiving end of a verbal assault and ask yourself if it would make you perform any faster or any better. If not, perhaps you should reword it.

 

That said, there are sections of the game that are just awful and I have called them as much. The GTN interface is amatuerish at best, and I have said so in another post. In those rare cases, I really think the person(s) that put that together simply did not have the right skill set for it. That is not being abusive, that is just my honest opinion as person incharge of my own SW design team. And there are plenty of posts with excellent suggestions on how to improve it.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Cubanito-

[Einherjerlol]

Read this: http://mrlizard.com/rants/why-havent-they-fixed-this-bug/

 

In no way am I a fanboy, but I like this game. The people who constantly complain are getting ridiculous and have no idea how things work in a programming environment. Well, here ya go.

 

 

Did you actually forget that we all pay for this game?? That should be enough for them to complain if they are not satisfied with the product they get. Ever ordered a Pizza? Lets say it was a little burned on the bottom and you don't like it. Then you tell the waiter to take it back, does he refuse and give you an essay about how the pizza guy is making it, so that you understand that they all sometimes get burned a little bit? No, he doesnt do that, he takes it and bring you a new one. You have a right to refuse a product you pay for and not be satisfied with if it does not meet your expectations.

 

Your logic is flawed.

 

And to all of you that comment on whining, have you ever considered that you whine about whining? Don't forget that there is a thing called "Freedom of Speech"

[DarkSeverance]

The game has no excuse to be so flawed when they used a formula that has already been around for almost a decade now.

Funny thing about forumla's, they serve as the cooking and basic blocks for anything. However that doesn't mean just because you have the formula that it will always turn out the same way. Just look at the music industry and the boy/girl band formula that doesn't always work and sometimes does.

 

In fact I'm going to give you a recipe for Southern Red Velvet Cake. The recipe has been around for over a decade. I expect it to not be flawed and taste exactly just like my grandmother used to bake for me. That should be easy because its a recipe that has been around forever.

 

Oh wait there are different ways to bake it, mix the ingredients, add other things, all which essentially transform the recipe into something else... maybe not necessarily targeting you as the target market, but it may be good to someone else.

 

It has the basics that have been around for a decade but there are still a 100 different ways to utilize those basics. There is no 100% formula otherwise every MMO would be a hit.

[Veqtue]

"e)Eventually, the game ships, and people start wailing about how they were “lied” to. Then they glom on to some other barely-announced game and repeat the cycle."

 

Haha, this 1000000x times over.

 

EVERY.SINGLE.MMO.

[plosky]

Did you actually forget that we all pay for this game?? That should be enough for them to complain if they are not satisfied with the product they get. Ever ordered a Pizza? Lets say it was a little burned on the bottom and you don't like it. Then you tell the waiter to take it back, does he refuse and give you an essay about how the pizza guy is making it, so that you understand that they all sometimes get burned a little bit? No, he doesnt do that, he takes it and bring you a new one. You have a right to refuse a product you pay for and not be satisfied with if it does not meet your expectations.

 

Your logic is flawed.

 

And to all of you that comment on whining, have you ever considered that you whine about whining? Don't forget that there is a thing called "Freedom of Speech"

 

As I posted above, there's a difference between whining and constructive criticism/feedback. If you REALLY want this game to flourish, you would provide criticism in an adult way with suggestions on how to fix it to back it up. Not complain and whine.

 

To go even further with your pizza analogy, when you got the burned pizza you wouldn't stand up, spit in the waiter's face, and tell him MY PIZZA IS BURNED!!!! FIX IT!!!! No, you would ask him politely to take it back, fix it, and then return it.

[crushingbush]

Speaking as a developer/designer, that article is 100% correct. Unfortunately, a lot of gamers are young, inexperienced and often have an exagerated sense of entitlement and so will most likely not really understand it, or agree with it. And they tend to be the most vocal. So you get a lot of the forum posts that we see: abusive, caustic and non-constructive.

 

Posts like: "The devs need to get their heads out of their asses" do not help anyone. They really don't. And it always makes me a bit sad when I see them. They infact are counter productive as it is demoralizing to anyone that is on the receiving end. And the last thing one should do is to take the wind out the sails of the person that is working to provide you with something you want. Abuse does not motivate, no matter what an olympic gymnastics coach might think.

 

I would encourage anyone before posting to try to imagine yourself on the receiving end of a verbal assault and ask yourself if it would make you perform any faster or any better. If not, perhaps you should reword it.

 

 

This argument holds little water, as anyone who wants to sell you something and then keep paying a monthly fee. So under your argument fine lets not take the wind out of there sails but how about not charge until its fixed then..oh wait now that's different.

[plosky]

This argument holds little water, as anyone who wants to sell you something and then keep paying a monthly fee. So under your argument fine lets not take the wind out of there sails but how about not charge until its fixed then..oh wait now that's different.

 

I think your misunderstanding something. He's not saying, "Oh, the game is perfect. Let's leave it as it is." What he's saying is stop ATTACKING the developers where all you do is complain. Provide CONSTRUCTIVE feedback.

[DrkCntry]

Did you actually forget that we all pay for this game?? That should be enough for them to complain if they are not satisfied with the product they get. Ever ordered a Pizza? Lets say it was a little burned on the bottom and you don't like it. Then you tell the waiter to take it back, does he refuse and give you an essay about how the pizza guy is making it, so that you understand that they all sometimes get burned a little bit? No, he doesnt do that, he takes it and bring you a new one. You have a right to refuse a product you pay for and not be satisfied with if it does not meet your expectations.

 

Your logic is flawed.

 

Sorry, your logic is the one that is flawed.

 

The link discusses people who claim that things MUST be simple and that things should be fixed in a manner they feel is appropriate. This is generally an inappropriate statement.

 

It has nothing to do with the quality of a product that is sold, but the manner in which that product is created and further developed.

 

Expectations are one thing, however boiling down the meat of the majority of these posts are not that expectations aren't met, that expectations are so wildly out of whack.

 

That would be like walking into a pizza joint and asking for a pizza that another pizza joint makes...sure you can expect a pizza joint to make any kind of pizza, but to expect a pizza joint to bend their will to your desires is, well, laughable.

 

And to all of you that comment on whining, have you ever considered that you whine about whining? Don't forget that there is a thing called "Freedom of Speech"

 

Might I suggest looking back at what Freedom of Speech actually entitles you to?

[Blotter]

"Then you tell the waiter to take it back, does he refuse and give you an essay about how the pizza guy is making it, so that you understand that they all sometimes get burned a little bit? No, he doesnt do that, he takes it and bring you a new one. "

 

No. What you present is a response to a polite "I don't like the way this is cooked, could the chef please try again and make it less rare/less salty" or something.

 

However, why don't you try a little experiment. Next time you go to a restaurant and get food served to you that you don't think was the way it should be and want it taken back or changed or redone, etc., I want you to stand up in the restaurant and stomp your feet, yell at the waiter, storm into the kitchen and pimp slap the chef and then throw a complete nutty in the dining area trying to convince everyone else int he restaurant to put down their forks and leave the restaurant. After you try that, please come back to us and report hwo well that worked out for you in terms of encouraging the restaurant to serve you the dish you ordered in the manner you wanted it cooked.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Blotter

[DarkSeverance]

This argument holds little water, as anyone who wants to sell you something and then keep paying a monthly fee. So under your argument fine lets not take the wind out of there sails but how about not charge until its fixed then..oh wait now that's different.

But you like everyone else do have the option to not be charged until its fixed. It is your choice. Absolutely nothing wrong with that choice either. It isn't for me since my wife and I aren't experiencing any game breaking issues though.

[T-Nutz]

The first issue he states, I think we all know. They work in teams. I would normally think that they develop modules and then fit those modules together.

 

Second: There is a slight learning curve to learning the programming from another programming team, but not as much as this person states. This is why they leave comments in the code, so in case someone else comes in later and needs to fix something, they should be able to locate the code they need to fix, based off the comments. All programmers should use comment in their code, you learn this in basic programming classes in HS/College.

 

Third: This person states that quest bugs are pretty simple that a Junior analyst/programmer should be able to fix in a short time by diving into the database to fix the problem. Why haven't the Class quests been fixed yet? Some people are still bugged and cannot progress on their class story line. After all, this is what SW:TOR is all about correct, the storyline?

 

The rest seems to spot on and a little rambling.

 

This is a very good game, but I have seen this type of Marketing (if you will) from other companies.

 

You run out of money, so you take pre-orders. You get a bunch of money in for a product that has not been fully developed and use that money to fund more development projects. Sadly, this is how it seems to work in this industry. I believe it was EVE 2 that SOE released, and it wasn't finished. People got to the last part of the expansion, only to realize, the last quests were not in the game, but it was sold as a finished product.

 

The real thing that gets me is: Bioware knew about most of the bugs during their BETA testing. I know, because I wrote some of the same bug reports that I am currently writing now. If someone of them were easy to fix, why not fix them when you had the chance? You knew about it, but decided to wait til a later date. This is more than likely why they have pre-orders so they can obtain more money.

 

Disclosure: I am not a programmer, but I have programmed before. I have over 60 hours of programming classes, and I have worked on projects for a subsidiary for Halliburton and many others.

 

Just my 2 cents anyway.

[Diora]

while the article is brilliant, i see a gaping flaw in your strategy of posting it, OP.

 

The average intelligence level of the people on these forums will not allow them to get through an article that successfully utilizes the word "fungible" in the first couple of paragraphs.

 

I bet if you did a poll and asked people on this forum what they thought fungible meant...the majority would think it was some kind of mushroom.

 

tl;dr: linked article too intelligent for average swtor forum user. process failure. Abort or retry?

[djsmileey]

What a great article, I am glad someone took the time to spell it out.

[Cubanito-]

This argument holds little water, as anyone who wants to sell you something and then keep paying a monthly fee. So under your argument fine lets not take the wind out of there sails but how about not charge until its fixed then..oh wait now that's different.

 

There's a point where a management team has to decide if the product is stable enough to ship so revenue can begin. It may or may not be the right decision at the time (and thatis always a tough call) but you can't wait until everything is fixed or you simply will never release it.

 

The last paragraph I edited in my post is a perfect example. I personally would not have released the GTN in its current state. But that does not mean I'm not going to keep paying for the game, nor do I think the company does not have a right to charge for their product. If one feels that the game is unplayable or that they are not getting their money's worth, you should abolutely unsub.

[crushingbush]

while the article is brilliant, i see a gaping flaw in your strategy of posting it, OP.

 

The average intelligence level of the people on these forums will not allow them to get through an article that successfully utilizes the word "fungible" in the first couple of paragraphs.

 

I bet if you did a poll and asked people on this forum what they thought fungible meant...the majority would think it was some kind of mushroom.

 

tl;dr: linked article too intelligent for average swtor forum user. process failure. Abort or retry?

 

 

This is the exact kind of post that breaks up a perfectly fine discussion,,brings nothing but childish name calling...really?

[Nuzt]

Personally I found that pretty immature. You do understand that some of us are adults.. you know, actually went and see the origonal Starwars in the theator? No offense but its like asking your mom if she found that stupid thread funny...

 

Perhaps most (not all) of the people complaining should act like an adult then.

[djsmileey]

My goodness. Someone drops a Logic bomb on the discussion and people immediately change the conversation to name calling and child-like behavior. Edited January 20, 2012 by djsmileey

[Andryah]

while the article is brilliant, i see a gaping flaw in your strategy of posting it, OP.

 

The average intelligence level of the people on these forums will not allow them to get through an article that successfully utilizes the word "fungible" in the first couple of paragraphs.

 

I bet if you did a poll and asked people on this forum what they thought fungible meant...the majority would think it was some kind of mushroom.

 

tl;dr: linked article too intelligent for average swtor forum user. process failure. Abort or retry?

 

LOL.. soooo true.

 

Have you noticed however how fungible the trolls around here are? It's like they are working from a single training document.

[Lateris]

I cannot wait until the subs kick in when the community will be those of us who want to be here.

[crushingbush]

"Then you tell the waiter to take it back, does he refuse and give you an essay about how the pizza guy is making it, so that you understand that they all sometimes get burned a little bit? No, he doesnt do that, he takes it and bring you a new one. "

 

No. What you present is a response to a polite "I don't like the way this is cooked, could the chef please try again and make it less rare/less salty" or something.

 

However, why don't you try a little experiment. Next time you go to a restaurant and get food served to you that you don't think was the way it should be and want it taken back or changed or redone, etc., I want you to stand up in the restaurant and stomp your feet, yell at the waiter, storm into the kitchen and pimp slap the chef and then throw a complete nutty in the dining area trying to convince everyone else int he restaurant to put down their forks and leave the restaurant. After you try that, please come back to us and report hwo well that worked out for you in terms of encouraging the restaurant to serve you the dish you ordered in the manner you wanted it cooked.

 

 

While hilarious and fun to read I would have to say not all on these threads "complaining" are quite so animated about it but, rather stating things they find wrong with the product they bought.

[Diora]

This is the exact kind of post that breaks up a perfectly fine discussion,,brings nothing but childish name calling...really?

 

dude, i'm just trying to save the OP hours of frustration and pain. you all know the quote about arguing on the internet...

 

If i wasn't at work, i'd be playing right now. Which is what i suggest everyone who is in this thread making logical, reasoned arguments should go do. Just forget these forums, they are a cesspit of entitlement and idiocy, and it really is fruitless to try to "make them see the light".

 

I gave up a while ago.

 

I love the game. I've been through a lot of MMO launches. I've even worked in the game development industry. The article is 100% right. But it doesn't matter...the haters WILL NOT LISTEN.

 

30 more minutes...

[Cubanito-]

I think your misunderstanding something. He's not saying, "Oh, the game is perfect. Let's leave it as it is." What he's saying is stop ATTACKING the developers where all you do is complain. Provide CONSTRUCTIVE feedback.

 

Yes, exactly. And as a developer, I should be fully prepared to hear "this is just terrible, I hate it" from a customer. And if it was followed up with "what I really want is this..." I better be ready listen. What you don't want to hear is "Your a bunch of idiots and have no business developing an MMO". That is just not going help make a better product, is it?

[DrkCntry]

While hilarious and fun to read I would have to say not all on these threads "complaining" are quite so animated about it but, rather stating things they find wrong with the product they bought.

 

You're right, not all of them are...but the VAST majority fall into the realm as to why the OP linked to that page...not to mention that the bulk of those wouldn't know what constructive criticism was if it slapped them in the face.