Rizael Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I was just messing around tonight and figured that some things with out class are "not alright" although my thoughts on what is too powerful is different from the masses. Just some information on my character is that I am a valor ranked 65 Operative, and have been BM for almost a week. Firstly I want to say that our class (Assuming you are an Op) is too all around powerful, and mostly I am talking about small encounters where our class has too much viabilty in almost every situation. For a wear down fight we have heals, for tanks we have very high armor pen, and we also have alot of control, however in group fights we have issues that impede our ability to work in a group. My ideas are to lower our innate "solo-ability" and allow for better team synergy, or at least that is the intended problem I wish to correct. Hidden Strike: In my opinion there is too much in the concealment tree devoted to this one skill, giving it the appearance of "Overpowered", however considering that 9 points are usually spent to make Hidden Strike this powerful, The problem here is that how do you balance a skill that may only be used once in a team encounter without making it completely useless as such an investment is placed upon it. First off the stun itself should have its duration halved, I only say this because the "stand up" animation tends to take an additional GCD and the stun starts at the end of the previous GCD. Meaning that you can hit with 4 unanswered attacks (from each party member in the conflict) at the start of most engagements, this is too much. I suggest that the knockdown time be lowered to 1.5s to combat this and make it only a 3 skill rotation. The second part that is a grave error with the stun is that it gives a full resolve bar, so for team coordination this one move kills it, so with the 1.5s stun reduction I also suggest that the resolve bar be lowered from a full resolve bar to 3/4's. This is also necessary due to the issue of an inability to use our flagship ability as it will destroy all attempts in games such as huttball to push/pull the enemy off the endzone landing. Lastly the use of repeated Hidden strikes due to its high tooltip damage warrants a cooldown. This ability should have a 30-45 second cooldown to stop repeated use by bad players that only know how to HS vanish HS to trying and win their conflicts. Flash Bang This ability frustrates me beyond anything that should be happening. First off this ability should be a ground target aoe. In its current state it does not pop off instantly so your target has almost 1.5 seconds of random movement to account for until the mez lands and ... everyone left him, wonderful. So my first suggestion is ground based targetting, so we can actually predict where the movement will happen making the ability a little more skill based as well. The second tweak I want done for this ability is a cooldown increase. When used correctly and by an organized group it affects the combat too well, and I believe increases much too largely for the survival of the operative. Shield Probe Stop letting damage through would be my first suggestion, I hate being run down with my shield probe after re spawning! (Never actually tested if this is true or not because I believe its a graphical bug) But in all seriousness shield probe cools down too fast, and is able to be used in almost all engagements, I would raise the cooldown to 1 min to test to waters and see how it plays out. Toxic Scan Should not be available unless you spec into the Medicine tree.*should be with all specs with a healing tree, purges should not be avail unless spec'd healer as this severely nerfs Dot specs (such as madness, Lethality etc) as it stands an Op counters a lethality build of itself and snipers by using a 4.5s CD ability. Acid Blade Make Variations in the buff/debuff icons, so you can tell if - your weapon has the poison applied, You have the buff for 50% armor pen and the poison on the enemy (poison on the enemy is not so important to have a separate one from the others so maybe just two distinct icon variations. Evasion Make it work properly like it is meant to, remove all roots (specifically Sorc/Sage knockback root does not get removed) and I hear tell or some dots not being removed... fix it? Thats all I have though for the moment to bring us more into line with some of the other classes without nerfing the burst and homogenizing our class with the assassin. Our class is simply too strong and I have been playing around with this for a while trying to come up with some class that would counter us as hard as we counter most of the other classes, and they simply do not exist. The closest to our counter would be a tank, however they are still beatable by our class but it just requires skill, and resource management to do it, and the reasonable amount of time it would take for this to happen would have re-enforcements on both sides so it is not a favorable situation. Sidenote: Healing bonus should be removed from Expertise... Anyway leave your comments below and try to keep it civil, our class does need some adjusting, but it would be best if we could come up with things to don't break the class beyond repair as it is a thin line between overpowered and useless for burst classes. Leave your thoughts below, and if you are not an Op please refrain from posting as it is not constructive in the least bit. 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jbrdude Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) The class isn't OP without buff stacking imho. With buff stacking, it was -- for everyone. However, given our stealth alpha strike, it made us that much more powerful. Arguably we need to be reviewed for improvements given the change to buff stacking and our reliance on burst. Edited January 19, 2012 by jbrdude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahebish Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) ugh, Without getting into gritty details. Hidden strike I disagree. For a skill that requires a 9 point investment I want that 3 second stun duration. To hell with everyone who thinks it's OP'd. Most of them have no clue about the class to begin with. The most ironic thing I noticed when I removed the stun was that it took people an average of 3-5 seconds to realize I was attacking them and didn't knock them down. People see the knock down and panic. That's a L2P issue. And for those that don't know. Sorcs have a talent skill that blinds you during the full duration of that KD which means you can't spike sorcs like other classes. And spiking a geared sorc is stupid. Especially if they are geared. I wish I had heals that would heal 25%-50% of my HP instantly without a cast timer. I wish I had a gap closer so I could get close enough to a kitting sorc to prevent them from healing back to full HP while I shoot them in the back with my peashooter at range. I have been knocked down by other ops and smugs. And u know what? They ran from me after 3 seconds, because I know how to counter them on a class I've never played before. Toxic scan: Is our dot removal skill. Remove this you might as well take away vanish as well since the skill is worthless at this point. Evasion: Is our damage debuff removal skill. Toxic scan and evasion remove different debuffs. Toxic scan removes traditional dots. While Evasion removes damage debuffs such as sorc DOD "Dot of Death" which cannot be removed by toxic scan. My 2 creds Edited January 19, 2012 by Ahebish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Majspuffen Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I'm playing a healer so my opinion may not be as valid but I agree with what the OP says. And kudos to the OP for having the courage to write a "please nerf my class"-post! ^^ I wasn't aware that Hidden Strike filled the entire resolve bar, but now that I think of it it has to. If you could follow up with another stun, you'd kill your enemies before they have even had a chance to react. Reducing the stun and reducing the resolve it builds up is both a nerf and a buff. As for the cooldown, 30-45 sec sound a bit much. 15-20 seconds would be plenty, that would prevent the x2 Hidden Strikes. As for the other suggestions, I do not have much to comment about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menoske Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Using Hidden Strike starts your own GCD, so please remember that we do have to wait for the GCD to finish to start our attacks when you hit the ground. This ability can only be used from stealth and does not need a cool down. A player can only perform the hidden strike > Cloak Screen > Hidden strike for more damage once every two minutes. This also forces the operative to make a choice...do I blow my 2 min get out of combat card for one extra strike or do i save it to run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahebish Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) I'm playing a healer so my opinion may not be as valid but I agree with what the OP says. And kudos to the OP for having the courage to write a "please nerf my class"-post! ^^ I wasn't aware that Hidden Strike filled the entire resolve bar, but now that I think of it it has to. If you could follow up with another stun, you'd kill your enemies before they have even had a chance to react. Reducing the stun and reducing the resolve it builds up is both a nerf and a buff. As for the cooldown, 30-45 sec sound a bit much. 15-20 seconds would be plenty, that would prevent the x2 Hidden Strikes. As for the other suggestions, I do not have much to comment about. The CD point is almost moot. Since anyone who's actually played an operative and fought against geared 50's know that 1on1 fights take longer than 15-20 seconds anyways. Put a CD on it, it won't change a damn thing in 1v1 fights. Again, as the previous poster said, remember, the fact we can use it twice every 2 minutes, is a gamble to win the encounter. It's not always a guaranteed win. If people have played operative more in real PVP situations against geared 50's you would know most people don't make this gamble and would rather escape combat. Edited January 19, 2012 by Ahebish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zunayson Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 ugh, Without getting into gritty details. Hidden strike I disagree. For a skill that requires a 9 point investment I want that 3 second stun duration. To hell with everyone who thinks it's OP'd. Most of them have no clue about the class to begin with. The most ironic thing I noticed when I removed the stun was that it took people an average of 3-5 seconds to realize I was attacking them and didn't knock them down. People see the knock down and panic. That's a L2P issue. And for those that don't know. Sorcs have a talent skill that blinds you during the full duration of that KD which means you can't spike sorcs like other classes. And spiking a geared sorc is stupid. Especially if they are geared. I wish I had heals that would heal 25%-50% of my HP instantly without a cast timer. I wish I had a gap closer so I could get close enough to a kitting sorc to prevent them from healing back to full HP while I shoot them in the back with my peashooter at range. I have been knocked down by other ops and smugs. And u know what? They ran from me after 3 seconds, because I know how to counter them on a class I've never played before. Toxic scan: Is our dot removal skill. Remove this you might as well take away vanish as well since the skill is worthless at this point. Evasion: Is our damage debuff removal skill. Toxic scan and evasion remove different debuffs. Toxic scan removes traditional dots. While Evasion removes damage debuffs such as sorc DOD "Dot of Death" which cannot be removed by toxic scan. My 2 creds Do you read? I don't mean to be rude, but it blantantly says in the tooltip that it removes Tech and Physical (Mental, too, if you spec into heals) effects. Doesn't matter the damage. If it doesn't have a category, then it won't be removed. Evasion removes all negative effects that can be removed. Meaning if it doesn't get removed, it can't be removed. Period. It's working as intended. I use tox scan on me If I'm snared, or to clear blinds off allies (Im med spec, not concealment ), and Evasion to get out of the so called Dot of Death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rizael Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 The CD point is almost moot. Since anyone who's actually played an operative and fought against geared 50's know that 1on1 fights take longer than 15-20 seconds anyways. Put a CD on it, it won't change a damn thing in 1v1 fights. Again, as the previous poster said, remember, the fact we can use it twice every 2 minutes, is a gamble to win the encounter. It's not always a guaranteed win. If people have played operative more in real PVP situations against geared 50's you would know most people don't make this gamble and would rather escape combat. The reason I said 30-45 seconds is because this would stop horrible players from using the skill like this. The largest thing I wanted was to remove the "spammability" but allow it to be rotated with debilitate. This would also stop a fast kill slip into stealth and hit the ability again, which would lower its overall effectiveness while barely changing it vs "good players" Hidden strike I disagree. For a skill that requires a 9 point investment I want that 3 second stun duration. To hell with everyone who thinks it's OP'd. Most of them have no clue about the class to begin with. The most ironic thing I noticed when I removed the stun was that it took people an average of 3-5 seconds to realize I was attacking them and didn't knock them down. People see the knock down and panic. [/Quote] The main thing I was saying is that our "3 second stun", is more of a 4.5 second stun due to the animation of "standing up" after. and to correct this oversight allow it to retain the intended 3 second stun. This also becomes more powerful due to the fact that the 3 seconds begins "counting" at the end of the HS attack, and the standup animation starts after the 3 seconds are over. Also my main issue with Toxic Scan is that it effectively counters the effects of 4/8 classes whereas we have a "dot removal/hard root removal". This skill allows us not only is a double of an ability vs certain classes it is on an incredibly low timer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brightglade Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I was just messing around tonight and figured that some things with out class are "not alright" Shield Probe Stop letting damage through would be my first suggestion, I hate being run down with my shield probe after re spawning! (Never actually tested if this is true or not because I believe its a graphical bug) But in all seriousness shield probe cools down too fast, and is able to be used in almost all engagements, I would raise the cooldown to 1 min to test to waters and see how it plays out. Shield Probe needs to be dropped to an instant cast, spammable and cost 10 energy if the medic picks a new talent in the Medicine tree. This would be a great boon to Op Medics in raids and pve settings. For other Operatives, leave it at 45 seconds and a self buff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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