Kinetic Shadow - tiering up

[Chaosy]

For the KC Shadows out there:

 

How do you guys spend your points in the lower tiers? I've seen a pretty varied distribution spread. My personal belief is that 3 points of Technique Mastery, 2 points of Saber Defense and 2 points of Elusiveness are givens, but how does Applied Force, Rapid Recover and Mental Fortitude stack up against each other?

 

Right now I'm playing a KC/Infil hybrid but am planning on switching to the KC/balance spec. I'm just unsure what would be the most beneficial in terms of min/maxing my character.

[Kitru]

how does Applied Force, Rapid Recover and Mental Fortitude stack up against each other?

 

You'll want to get Rapid Recovery asap since it actually generates appreciable returns to your survivability, especially with the massive buff to CT. Mental Fortitude is largely a waste and you should only put the 1 point into it when you're forced to dump points at later levels to get to higher tiers. Applied Force you'll put a point into quite early and then fill it out later before you put the single point in Mental Fortitude.

[aladik]

Why not go with no points in Mental Fortitude, and using one point in Applied Force to move to tier 3?

[Kitru]

Why not go with no points in Mental Fortitude, and using one point in Applied Force to move to tier 3?

 

That's what I'm recommending. You'll still have to throw 2 points into lower tier talents to advance from tier 5 to tier 6, so you'll be putting those points into finishing AF and a single point into Mental Fortitude (since there isn't anything else that would really be useful).

[Chaosy]

Kitru: Right now I have a spread of 1 Applied Force, 2 Saber Defense, 3 Technique for the first tier. Second tier is 2 Elusiveness and 2 Rapid Recovery.

 

I don't see where I can find an extra point to dump into finishing Applied Force with a 23/0/18 spread.

[Kitru]

I don't see where I can find an extra point to dump into finishing Applied Force with a 23/0/18 spread.

 

It's because you're using the 23/0/18 spread, which I, personally, don't see any appreciable reason for anymore now that Slow Time has gotten buffed so heavily. You find the extra 2 points for Applied Force and Mental Fortitude in the 5th tier, because Nerve Wracking is so ludicrously bad (so you're only spending the 3 points on Stasis, Bombardment, and Force Pull).

Edited January 19, 2012 by Kitru

[Arbegla]

Just FYI, Mental foritude isn't as bad at Kitru will make you believe. Using a Time until death metric, and averaging out Resiliences use to an uptime comparison, Mental Fortitude is marginally better then Elusivness.

 

Here is the math to support it:

 

So, using that theory, lets look at what exactly Resilience is doing for us, compared to what more hp would do for us.

 

We've both agreed on 50% block chance, for 30% reduction, 25% defense (vs range/melee) and 2% resistance (vs tech/force) We've also agreed, mostly, on the innate resistance values of 40% K/E, and 21% I/E. And we seem to agree on the base hp being 20k.

 

Now, with 1% endurance boost, your hp total is 20175, and with 3% endurance boost your hp total is 20525. The uptime of Resilience with a 5 second duration, and 45 second cooldown is 11.11%. The uptime of Resilience with a 5 second duration, and 60 second cooldown is 8.33%. We've evenly split the damage between Force/tech and Range/melee at 50/50, and the damage 'type' is split 75% K/E, and 25% I/E.

 

CT provides 38hp/second. TK Thrust provides 80hp/second, and BR provides 16.67hp/second, for a total of 134.67 hp/second healing base.

 

1% endurance boosts the above numbers to 38hp/second for CT (unsure if endurance affects it, so i won't count it) 80.7hp/second for TK Thrust, and 16.81hp/second for BR, for a total of 135.51hp/second.

 

3% endurance boosts the above numbers to 38hp/second for CT, 82.1hp/second for TK Thrust, and 17.10hp/second BR, for a total of 137.2hp/second.

 

Now, lets look at what exactly resilience is doing for us, in regards to tech/force powers.

 

We have 1000 incoming damage. 50% of it is force/tech, 50% of it is range/melee. 75% of that damage is K/E, and 25% is I/E.

 

500 * .75(defense chance) * .85(shield chance) = 318.75 Range/melee

500 * .98(resistance) = 490 force/tech

 

Damage type break down for Range/melee

318.75 * .75 = 239.06 K/E damage

318.75 * .25 = 79.69 I/E damage

 

Damage type break down for Tech/Force

490 * .75 = 367.5 K/E damage

490 * .25 = 122.5 I/E damage

 

Damage reduction via armor/buffs for Range/Melee

239.06 K/E damage * .6 = 143.44 Incoming K/E damage

79.69 I/E damage * .79 = 58.22 Incoming I/E damage

 

Damage reduction via armor/buffs for Tech/Force

367.5 K/E damage * .6 = 220.5 Incoming K/E damage

122.5 I/E damage * .79 = 96.78 Incoming I/E damage

 

Total damage sustained before armor/buffs are considered: 808.75 total damage

Total damage sustained before armor/buffs are considered, but after Resilience is considered: 318.74

Total damage sustained after armor/buffs but before Resilience is considered: 518.94 Total damage

Total damage sustained after armor/buffs and after Resilience is considered: 201.66 Total damage

 

Percentage of damage armor/buffs are mitigating from total damage: 36%

 

Difference between Force/tech damage before Armor is considered, and after armor is considered: 172.72

Percentage of damage Armor/buffs are mitigating from force/tech powers: 35%

Percentage of damage Resilience is mitigating from Force/tech powers after armor is considered: 65%

 

So, Resilience is only giving you a 65% damage reduction, after you consider armor/buffs reducing the incoming damage. Using that 65%, let see how long your lifespan will be, with an incoming DPS of 4300.

 

36% total mitigation from all sources, with an 11.11% uptime of an additional 65% mitigation from force/tech powers. Force/tech powers are 50% of incoming damage, so you have (65% * (11.11%/2)) or a total of 3.61% mitigation value, for a grand total of 39.61% mitigation. With 1% endurance increase, you have 20175 hp, with 135.51hp/second self healing. Your time until death is (20175 / ((4300 * (1 - 39.61%) - 135.51)) or (20175 / (2596.77 - 135.51)) or (20175 / 2461.26) or about 8.20 seconds until death.

 

36% total mitigation from all sources, with an 8.33% uptime of an additional 65% mitigation from force/tech powers. Force/tech powers are 50% of incoming damage, so you have (65% * (8.33%/2)) or a total of 2.71% mitigation value, or a grand total of 38.71% mitigation. With 3% endurance increase, you have 20525 hp, with 137.2hp/second self healing. Your time until death is (20525 / ((4300 * (1 - 38.71%) - 137.2)) or (20525 / (2635.47 - 137.2)) or (20525 / 2498.27) or about 8.22 seconds until death.

 

 

It's marginal at best, but it there, so Mental Foritude (and endurance itself) isn't nearly as wasteful as Kitru will make you believe

Edited January 19, 2012 by Arbegla

[vizsanity]

I wanted to get someones oppinion on Rapid Recovery. I was thinking of not putting points into because the force technique can only happen every 4.5 second or so and 50% chance per hit seems good enough anyway (because of the 4.5 second "cooldown").

 

Am I wrong in this train of thought?

[Arbegla]

I wanted to get someones oppinion on Rapid Recovery. I was thinking of not putting points into because the force technique can only happen every 4.5 second or so and 50% chance per hit seems good enough anyway (because of the 4.5 second "cooldown").

 

Am I wrong in this train of thought?

 

More testing would be required, but from some quick napkin math, you might be right, Especially with all the multi-hit powers we use (saber strike, double strike, Project (with upheaval) and then any time you get more then 1 target with Force Breach or Slow time (as each target would count)

 

Might be something to consider now..

[SWB-NL]

It depends really, when it comes to endurance. Of course more stamina and a higher time to death is never a bad thing. On the other hand, I have yet to really run into situations where time to death actually had any sort of impact on the outcome of a fight. Usually so far if you avoid the easily avoidable stuff, it seems to more be a case of the healer needing to properly manage the resources to handle the sustained damage a boss puts out. Then again I'm level 45 and haven't done any hard modes yet as result, so maybe things change there. (Then again, I haven't heard much about enormous burst outside AoE pulls, and times where 3% extra Endurance will make a difference between life and death will be rare) Overall there's some use I would guess, but it seems rather marginal.

 

When it comes to Combat Technique and Rapid Recovery, I would say the increased time between procs might somewhat diminish the value of the talent. On the other hand, it will have a bit of an effect on how quickly and reliably you can proc it after the cooldown wears off:

 

• Without Rapid Recovery, you have a 50% chance to not apply Combat Technique per swing. So over the course of a Double Strike for example, you'd have a 25% chance to not apply Combat Technique.
  
• With Rapid Recovery, you have a 35% chance to not apply Combat Technique per swing. So a Double Strike after the cooldown expires would have 12.25% chance to not apply Combat Technique.

 

Overall the time between procs will increase a little if you don't take Rapid Recovery (From an expected 1.53 attacks per proc to 2 attacks per proc) and the spread in time between procs will increase a little bit (as the higher chance to not apply Combat Technique means you might go several attacks without a proc).

 

Overall I'd say these are the last two T2 talents to consider picking up (assuming you do not consider Expertise) when tiering up, after taking the entire T1 and Elusiveness. Personally I'd probably still lean slightly to elusiveness since it will increase the overall healing done by combat technique, be it fairly marginally, whereas Mental Fortitude will rarely make a chance. Maybe my opinion will change as I hit hard modes, but overall both talents are fairly marginal atm in my view.

Edited January 19, 2012 by SWB-NL

[Eranus]

Now I am a person that isn't much for the math part - I usually play what feels right and don't go by the 0.03% difference in power. TO make it simple: My current specc looks like this: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#601rI0skrskbsZZf0cz.1. The 3 points in mental fortitude sometimes shift towards 2 points in elusiveness and 2 points in psychokinesis instead of just 1 in there.

I pretty much found it to be a good allround specc for PvP aswell as PvE without forcing me to respecc between those 2 occasions, as I am often throwing in a hardmode or 2 between warzones - or a few warzones before / after an operation.

[SWB-NL]

Now I am a person that isn't much for the math part - I usually play what feels right and don't go by the 0.03% difference in power. TO make it simple: My current specc looks like this: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#601rI0skrskbsZZf0cz.1. The 3 points in mental fortitude sometimes shift towards 2 points in elusiveness and 2 points in psychokinesis instead of just 1 in there.

I pretty much found it to be a good allround specc for PvP aswell as PvE without forcing me to respecc between those 2 occasions, as I am often throwing in a hardmode or 2 between warzones - or a few warzones before / after an operation.

 

Just wondering, why would you take Expertise as a Kinetic tank? The damage improvement is rather marginal, and I'd say for example you'd be much better off with full Psychokinesis to give you more force to play with. (And tbh I'd take Mental Fortitude and Rapid Recovery before Expertise as well)

[Kitru]

Am I wrong in this train of thought?

 

Since we're dealing with a chance to proc, there is no guarantee that it will occur immediately upon the ICD coming up. By increasing the chance of the proc occurring per hit (especially with our multiattacks since it's a chance per hit, not per attack), you decrease the wait window you have after the ICD comes up. In essence, Rapid Recovery will increase the "real" rate of proc because you're decreasing the dead time between the ICD coming up and the proc actually occurring. The benefit is less substantial from a pure proc rate improvement than it was before but the increase to the effect of the proc as a whole made the talent more powerful in the end (in that it provides more hp/sec than it did before).

[Kitru]

Overall there's some use I would guess, but it seems rather marginal.

 

This is pretty much true. The additional Endurance provided by Mental Fortitude is so little that the points are largely worthless. I don't know of any intelligently built tank specs that even *consider* putting more than trash points into Mental Fortitude: my spec only has the single point in Mental Fortitude because the other options (Nerve Wracking and Expertise) provide *even less* benefit. And, honestly, if Arbegla is still using the horribly flawed TtD metric as if it were actually applicable to reality, I have to /facepalm him so hard.

 

Overall I'd say these are the last two T2 talents to consider picking up (assuming you do not consider Expertise) when tiering up, after taking the entire T1 and Elusiveness. Personally I'd probably still lean slightly to elusiveness since it will increase the overall healing done by combat technique, be it fairly marginally, whereas Mental Fortitude will rarely make a chance. Maybe my opinion will change as I hit hard modes, but overall both talents are fairly marginal atm in my view.

 

Well, the first thing is that, with the additional healing from CT, the increase to the proc rate is going to provide substantially more hp over the course of a fight than Mental Fortitude will. If Rapid Recovery provides only 2 additional procs over the course of a fight (pretty likely considering we can estimate average proc rates being ~7.5 seconds and ~6.5 second respectively based on the number of attacks to expect before a proc occurs; with this assumption, an exceptionally short 1 minute fight would generate 8 and 9.2 predicted procs, respectively), it already provides more than 2 points in Mental Fortitude: 2% of 20k hp is 400; each proc provides 425 hp. Even if you factor in the *tiny* bit of additional max hp-dependent self healing you would gain (less than 2 hp/sec), Rapid Recovery still does more.

[Ellisande]

Just FYI, Mental foritude isn't as bad at Kitru will make you believe. Using a Time until death metric, and averaging out Resiliences use to an uptime comparison, Mental Fortitude is marginally better then Elusivness.

 

Here is the math to support it:

 

 

 

It's marginal at best, but it there, so Mental Foritude (and endurance itself) isn't nearly as wasteful as Kitru will make you believe

 

It's a flawed analysis. Averages don't work for abilities meant to be used for very specific reasons in very specific situations.

 

Specifically you use Resilience during PvE when a boss is doing it's biggest damage dealing attack or when you need to remove a debuff. In other words it is meant to be used in situations that you could not survive without it.

 

During PvP you use it either to remove debuffs you already have on you, to prevent being debuffed and/or to avoid taking damage when being focus fired. 5s Resilience with a faster cool down is ridiculous in Huttball.

 

Being able to reduce an additional 2s of damage that is 2 or more times above your median incoming dps is going to lead to a much longer expected time until death than 3% more hp every single time.

 

And I'm not even going to bother discussing how useless having a slightly larger pool is when the only thing that was keeping you alive in the first place is spam healing that makes you oscillate between 35% hp and 85% hp. That higher cap isn't even being utilized in that circumstance.

Edited January 19, 2012 by Ellisande

[Arbegla]

This is pretty much true. The additional Endurance provided by Mental Fortitude is so little that the points are largely worthless. I don't know of any intelligently built tank specs that even *consider* putting more than trash points into Mental Fortitude: my spec only has the single point in Mental Fortitude because the other options (Nerve Wracking and Expertise) provide *even less* benefit. And, honestly, if Arbegla is still using the horribly flawed TtD metric as if it were actually applicable to reality, I have to /facepalm him so hard.

 

I really enjoy this debate we're having Kitru, even if it is entirely 1 sided. See, Time until Death is the only way to figure out exactly how durable a tank it. It gives you a measurement (time) to best show your effective hit points (via mitigation, and hit points)

 

Every single tank theorycrafter that I have seen uses either a Effective Hit points (which is what TtD measures) or a pure TtD metric. Using a different measurement is completely insane, as it won't consider everything, and it will eventually boil down to a TtD metric anyway.

 

Saying 'you have enough time already for your healer to react' doesn't tell you how long you have. Just that it is good enough. That like filling up your gas tank, without looking, and assuming it will get you across the USA. Without knowing your MPG, or even how large the tank is to begin with.

 

You just don't know, and assuming its good enough to the worst possible way to go about attempting to tank anything, because if your wrong, it means a raid wipe. As in everyone DIES if your wrong. That isn't something I would want to risk.

 

Well, the first thing is that, with the additional healing from CT, the increase to the proc rate is going to provide substantially more hp over the course of a fight than Mental Fortitude will. If Rapid Recovery provides only 2 additional procs over the course of a fight (pretty likely considering we can estimate average proc rates being ~7.5 seconds and ~6.5 second respectively based on the number of attacks to expect before a proc occurs; with this assumption, an exceptionally short 1 minute fight would generate 8 and 9.2 predicted procs, respectively), it already provides more than 2 points in Mental Fortitude: 2% of 20k hp is 400; each proc provides 425 hp. Even if you factor in the *tiny* bit of additional max hp-dependent self healing you would gain (less than 2 hp/sec), Rapid Recovery still does more.

 

While I will agree that Rapid Recovery is the best thing to pick, so questioning that is insane, IF the new Combat Technique scales with endurance (which might be accurate, as people are posting MUCH different numbers so far) then Mental Fortitude actually benefits CT by 2-3% (depending on how many points you put in it) thus boosting your overall mitigation even more.

 

Further testing would be required, but it is something to keep in mind.

Edited January 19, 2012 by Arbegla