Sentinal Viability?

[Bundeh]

Are jedi sent DPS viable? I have heard different things from my guild.

[Jojak_Sana]

I have amazing DPS as a sent myself, I generally find that when my guildmates and I go for a world boss I find myself doing the most damage and using Force Camo all the time to drop my agro, the healers actually get mad at me because they spend more time healing me than they do anyone else lol.

[Ryzenone]

I have amazing DPS as a sent myself, I generally find that when my guildmates and I go for a world boss I find myself doing the most damage and using Force Camo all the time to drop my agro, the healers actually get mad at me because they spend more time healing me than they do anyone else lol.

 

Just curious, without a damage meter, how are you able to determine you are doing most of the dmg?

[NoNeedforCavalry]

PVP has damage charts.

 

I typically come in 2nd-3rd for damage, with 1st-2nd for objective points.

 

This is pre-lvl 20 mind you.

 

1v1 the only class to take me down has been a smuggler/op. They were in their 40s and it was still a close fight (again, keep in mind, class w/ no heals vs healing class w/ more than double the level gap)

 

This was in warzones so we were both bolstered to 49.

 

Now is it an easy class to play? OH HELL NAW!

 

edit: Also Op/Smug is getting nerfed a bit, so, yeah

Edited January 27, 2012 by NoNeedforCavalry

[Siokai]

Just curious, without a damage meter, how are you able to determine you are doing most of the dmg?

 

Yeah...riddle me this...

[CivicTiger]

You people need to shut up about damage meters.. god..

 

He knows he does the most damage, because he pulls the most amount of threat - I am the same on my Sentinel. if threat levels using camo go up and down up and down all the time, then you're doing your job right.

 

I also always have to have guard on me or its game over for the whole group.

[Cinemayor]

You people need to shut up about damage meters.. god..

 

He knows he does the most damage, because he pulls the most amount of threat - I am the same on my Sentinel. if threat levels using camo go up and down up and down all the time, then you're doing your job right.

 

I also always have to have guard on me or its game over for the whole group.

 

Yep. Finding the same.

 

We cleared EV this evening and on the solo bosses mine was dead so far ahead of everyone else I had time to make a cup of tea. Literally. I was also a 1-man Mind-Prison demolition derby.

 

Sure, some of the bosses aren't melee-friendly but I feel I make up for the time not spent hitting things but hitting them REALLY HARD when I can.

[Doomsaga]

Yep. Finding the same.

 

We cleared EV this evening and on the solo bosses mine was dead so far ahead of everyone else I had time to make a cup of tea. Literally. I was also a 1-man Mind-Prison demolition derby.

 

Sure, some of the bosses aren't melee-friendly but I feel I make up for the time not spent hitting things but hitting them REALLY HARD when I can.

 

I also like that although some bosses arent melee friendly sentinel has cd skills to help them deal with it quite easily

[Elyons]

Sentinel is kind of an off trade. The class can do amazing damage - on par with Commando and Gunslinger Sharpshooter trees, however being in melee range leaves one vulnerable to boss knockbacks, close range AoE's, and 1 hit agro pulls.

 

 

To answer the question, yes - its very viable. However your going to have to use interrupts often (as should EVERYONE) and watch out for channeled AoE's because if you don't back up and get out of the way then the healers will get strained.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Elyons

[Lilyiana]

I don't think you can just assume you do more damage because you're gaining threat. I believe a player at range has to do 30% more than the person with aggro to pull aggro vs a player in melee only having to do 10% more. Therefore if a commando was doing 25% more than the tank, and you hit 10% more than the tank did, you would get aggro even if the commando at range was doing more damage.

 

If in the middle of the fight the commando is doing more damage and moves into melee range he will get aggro (possibly after his next hit--appears immediate however).

 

There's various posts in the tanking forum about threat levels and getting aggro at ranged vs melee if you want to investigate.

 

I could be wrong but I think its more complex than just 'dps who gets the aggro is the highest damage dealer'. If you have a ranged player pulling aggro that might be a tell however since I believe it takes more damage to pull aggro at range.

 

If you watch this video you'll notice a lot of times that as the companion gets within 4m he suddenly picks up aggro:

Edited January 31, 2012 by Lilyiana

[erei]

He knows he does the most damage, because he pulls the most amount of threat - I am the same on my Sentinel. if threat levels using camo go up and down up and down all the time, then you're doing your job right.

dps=/= threat

You can have a high threat and do **** damage (or tanks would be top DPS), or because you are also generating aggro from heals (never heard of "aggro heal ?"), or hit a badly tanked mob. You can also suddenly burst enough damage to pull aggro (using high CD buffs), and have an overall DPS really low.

Saying "I'm good at dps because I have the aggro" is wrong. You can be a good dps, or there is plenty of reasons who made you pull the aggro while being a bad dps, from burst to bad tank.

 

The purpose of a DPS meter is to see this. It's a tool. Just like your "I HAVE THE AGGRO I'M GOOD DPS" tool, but in an accurate and easy to use version. What you do with a tool is your concern. You can use a hammer to build something, or you can smash the face of someone. Hammers are not evil.

 

 

Back to the topic. I use to play with my trooper (dps) with a sentinel DPS, and I think we do almost the same dmg (a bit more for me ATM, but variations can comes from skills, stuff, luck, AOE from someone else....). OFC, without DPS meter it's hard to see, just checking how fast I can destroy a trash mob on my own, while he does the same on another one.

Edited February 4, 2012 by erei

[E_c_c_e]

I have a Marauder (Sentinel Mirror), Operative (Scoundrel) and Sorcerer (Sage) at lvl 50 and I can certainly say that Sentinels (Marauder) have great dps.

 

I rerolled because I was a bit hasty on my decision how viable Marauder was in PvP (I thought they were crap since I lacked the gear and experience) and rerolled Operative because that was the class that appealed to me most at that time (incidentally it was the class that destroyed me most in PvP so yeah it was kinda fotm reroll).

 

Then I played my operative for quite a bit but realised that his playstyle wasn't really what I was looking for and I missed having a lightsaber. Plus I was really pi**ed off about the disadvantages of being a melee in both PvP and PvE (especially PvE). So I rerolled again to Sorcerer.

 

Generally I feel they do similar amounts of dmg although Operative was extremely bursty but kinda meh during a fight (after the opener and when high hitting abilities are on CD - practically all the time imho), Marauder took some time to get his DoTs up (I played as Annihilation / Watchman) but once he was up and running the dmg was really good and Sorcerers have great sustained dmg while rather few high hitting abilites (Hybrid Specc has Chain Lightning and Death Field at least).

 

But the dmg isn't the only thing that you have to look at. Sentinels / Marauders have some nice tools to shine both in PvP (especially there) and PvE. 2 defensive "shields", Undying Rage (99% dmg reduction for a short time), Obfuscate (90% miss for enemy), Force Charge, Short CD interrupt (especially short if specced Annihilation / Watchman), Force Camouflage (Short Stealth great for loosing Aggro or getting out of a tight spot), Group Heal with Annihilation / Watchman, Bloodthirst group buff (15% to dmg and heal for 15 seconds) and AoE fear (might have forgotten some but that's quite a list already ^^)

 

 

So if you like the class, play it...once you have a certain amount of gear you will hit like a truck and still bring enough to the table to be a valuable member of any group besides doing dmg

Edited February 4, 2012 by E_c_c_e

[FobManX]

Yep. Finding the same.

 

We cleared EV this evening and on the solo bosses mine was dead so far ahead of everyone else I had time to make a cup of tea. Literally. I was also a 1-man Mind-Prison demolition derby.

 

Yeah same with me. I'm pretty geared though now(4 pc Columi, rest of gear is all epics or mod gear with 56 epics)but even last week when I had no Columi I was destroying my solo boss before anyone else and it wasn't even close.

[otterscrubber]

I'm only lvl 18, but I have not issues with dps and from what I've reason the forums it only gets better as you level. Playing a jedi sentinel btw. Lotsa of damage options, can spec to do DOT or burst damage.

 

The only disadvantage I can see to playing a sentinel is you can only be dps. Most other classes can spec to fill another role, but sentinels marauders can only spec dps, so hopefully you will never get bored being dps or you will have to reroll. If I am wrong on this please let me know.

 

Guardian/Warrior: Can spec to do excellent dps as well as tank apparently. Again, no dps meters but from feedback from them they seem to think they keep up with sentinels/marauders. I find this hard to believe personally and if verified would demand some kind of fix IMHO. We do not last long when we become the focus of heavy damage.

 

Shadow/Assasin: Very cool and fun dps option, but they can also choose to be a tank if they wish. From beta feedback they can tank end game content quite well.

 

Sage/Sorceror: Can spec into healing as well as dps and be excellent at both.

 

etc....etc......so the only bad thing to being a sentinel is you are only good for dps. But you are quite good at that so don't let this concern you.

[jukrie]

Sentinels and Marauders(imperial version) are viable and i dare say at least 1 of them is needed in a good raid comp (just cause they can increase dmg and healing of the raid by 20% for some time).

 

As for dps as single target dmg output maybe only gunslingers and snipers can be on par with us. However operation boss fights are melee unfriendly wich let other dps'ers catch up in an overall dps.

 

I won't even talk about other raid buffs that sents or marauders bring to operations like speed for all members or heal for all operation members.

 

I don't think you can just assume you do more damage because you're gaining threat. I believe a player at range has to do 30% more than the person with aggro to pull aggro vs a player in melee only having to do 10% more. Therefore if a commando was doing 25% more than the tank, and you hit 10% more than the tank did, you would get aggro even if the commando at range was doing more damage.

 

If in the middle of the fight the commando is doing more damage and moves into melee range he will get aggro (possibly after his next hit--appears immediate however).

 

There's various posts in the tanking forum about threat levels and getting aggro at ranged vs melee if you want to investigate.

 

I could be wrong but I think its more complex than just 'dps who gets the aggro is the highest damage dealer'. If you have a ranged player pulling aggro that might be a tell however since I believe it takes more damage to pull aggro at range.

 

If you watch this video you'll notice a lot of times that as the companion gets within 4m he suddenly picks up aggro:

 

This is just wrong. Every attack ranged or melee does the same threat not 30% more if melee, don't know where did you get this info. There are ranged tanks that can tank from range if needed like vanguard. Of course they are better from melee but they can tank easily from range.

[Flowerslayer]

Sentinels and Marauders(imperial version) are viable and i dare say at least 1 of them is needed in a good raid comp (just cause they can increase dmg and healing of the raid by 20% for some time).

 

As for dps as single target dmg output maybe only gunslingers and snipers can be on par with us. However operation boss fights are melee unfriendly wich let other dps'ers catch up in an overall dps.

 

I won't even talk about other raid buffs that sents or marauders bring to operations like speed for all members or heal for all operation members.

 

 

 

This is just wrong. Every attack ranged or melee does the same threat not 30% more if melee, don't know where did you get this info. There are ranged tanks that can tank from range if needed like vanguard. Of course they are better from melee but they can tank easily from range.

Ehm, I beg to differ. Not every spell/ability generate the same amount of threat. DPS is not tied to threat so get over it already.

[Kithalt]

This is just wrong. Every attack ranged or melee does the same threat not 30% more if melee, don't know where did you get this info.

I think you may be confused about what the person was trying to say. I'll try to explain it a little better.

I'm the tank. I have (for example) 100 threat on this mob. In order to pull that mob off me to attack you, you would need to out threat me. If you are in melee range there is a 10% threat cushion. So if you do 109 threat to our example mob, I still have it. If you do 110 threat I still have it. If you do 111 threat now you have it. However, if you are out of melee range, you get a 30% threat cushion. So if you do 129 threat to our example mob, I still have it. If you do 130 threat, I still have it. If you do 131 threat, now you have it.

 

I think that's what the person was trying to say about the difference between ranged and melee. Now as far as every attack doing the same amount of threat per damage, this is mostly true. However, there are some specific abilities that do more threat than normal. An example of this is Hilt Strike for Jedi Guardians. Generally speaking abilities with extra threat only show up for use by tanks. Also, all tank stances boost threat so that the tank can hold things without being top dps (but I bet you knew that already).

[Callo]

Sentinels and Marauders(imperial version) are viable and i dare say at least 1 of them is needed in a good raid comp (just cause they can increase dmg and healing of the raid by 20% for some time).

 

As for dps as single target dmg output maybe only gunslingers and snipers can be on par with us. However operation boss fights are melee unfriendly wich let other dps'ers catch up in an overall dps.

 

I won't even talk about other raid buffs that sents or marauders bring to operations like speed for all members or heal for all operation members.

 

 

 

This is just wrong. Every attack ranged or melee does the same threat not 30% more if melee, don't know where did you get this info. There are ranged tanks that can tank from range if needed like vanguard. Of course they are better from melee but they can tank easily from range.

 

Commandos (maybe merc too as it's the "mirror" class?) are the top DPS... Sentinels/Marauders are still excellent DPS tho.

[jukrie]

I think you may be confused about what the person was trying to say. I'll try to explain it a little better.

I'm the tank. I have (for example) 100 threat on this mob. In order to pull that mob off me to attack you, you would need to out threat me. If you are in melee range there is a 10% threat cushion. So if you do 109 threat to our example mob, I still have it. If you do 110 threat I still have it. If you do 111 threat now you have it. However, if you are out of melee range, you get a 30% threat cushion. So if you do 129 threat to our example mob, I still have it. If you do 130 threat, I still have it. If you do 131 threat, now you have it.

 

I think that's what the person was trying to say about the difference between ranged and melee. Now as far as every attack doing the same amount of threat per damage, this is mostly true. However, there are some specific abilities that do more threat than normal. An example of this is Hilt Strike for Jedi Guardians. Generally speaking abilities with extra threat only show up for use by tanks. Also, all tank stances boost threat so that the tank can hold things without being top dps (but I bet you knew that already).

 

No, he clearly stated that ranged dps do 30% less threat than melee wich is not true. I am aware of 10% cushion but it's not the case discussed here.

 

About some abilities doing more threat than others wich some other person said here, yes they exist, but we were talking only about dps perspective, and they don't have abilities that generate a lot of threat (at least they shouldn't use for example a jugg dps shouldn't use taunt).

 

About commandos/mercs being top dps wich some other person said, well I believe it's not true but we cannot say anything for sure till we have at least a combat log, so....everyone can say w/e class they like are top dps.

 

Anyway this threat clearly went in the wrong direction..the op asked if it's viable to choose mara/sentinels as dps so my answer is YES.

[Kithalt]

No, he clearly stated that ranged dps do 30% less threat than melee wich is not true. I am aware of 10% cushion but it's not the case discussed here.

Reread what you originally quoted. That's not what the quote said.

 

About some abilities doing more threat than others wich some other person said here, yes they exist, but we were talking only about dps perspective, and they don't have abilities that generate a lot of threat (at least they shouldn't use for example a jugg dps shouldn't use taunt).

 

About commandos/mercs being top dps wich some other person said, well I believe it's not true but we cannot say anything for sure till we have at least a combat log, so....everyone can say w/e class they like are top dps.

 

Anyway this threat clearly went in the wrong direction..the op asked if it's viable to choose mara/sentinels as dps so my answer is YES.

Absolutely true.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Kithalt

[Mercbeast]

Commandos (maybe merc too as it's the "mirror" class?) are the top DPS... Sentinels/Marauders are still excellent DPS tho.

 

This is patently false.

 

Commandos and Mercenaries are more of a bursty class, this is especially true until they get their 2 piece PvE set bonus which helps them with sustainability.

 

In terms of DPS there are only two front runners.

 

Sent/Marauder or Gunslinger/Sniper. These two classes do the most sustained single target DPS. The question then boils down to which class does more. I personally feel it is a bit of a wash. A huge chunk of Marauder/Sent DPS is elemental which is generally not mitigated as much. Sniper/Gunslinger is kinetic so it is affected by armor.

 

In an 8 man raid, a sniper/gunslinger needs an armor sunder. What it loses however in raw damage to the Sentinel, it makes up by being ranged, lowering the healing burden on the raid and having what is essentially an instant transition in DPS between targets.

 

Why do I feel confident in pronouncing these two classes as top of the DPS heap? My guild has cleared KP and EV on 16 man nightmare. My sentinel is in full Rakata, we have a commando in full Rakata and we have a slinger in Rakata/Columi.

 

On the infernal council fight, I will down my marauder first, nearly 10% ahead of the Commandos and less geared slingers. That is about as close to a DPS meter as you get in this game.

[DrekorSilverfang]

Yeah...riddle me this...

 

Take a look at how much damage your abilities do, plug into spreadsheet, determine normal rotations against varying armor levels. Do calculations. You can get approximate values of how much DPS you can do in theory.

[jukrie]

Reread what you originally quoted. That's not what the quote said.

 

 

Absolutely true.

 

Hello again, sorry it took so long for me to respond, but here i am.

 

Ok, I'm just gonna copy paste from his reply: Originally Posted by Lilyiana

I don't think you can just assume you do more damage because you're gaining threat. I believe a player at range has to do 30% more than the person with aggro to pull aggro vs a player in melee only having to do 10% more.

 

Ok, he didn't said 30% more than melee but doing a little math it's 20% witch is also false. Ranged and melee do the same amount of threat.

[Kithalt]

Ok, I'm just gonna copy paste from his reply: Originally Posted by Lilyiana

I don't think you can just assume you do more damage because you're gaining threat. I believe a player at range has to do 30% more than the person with aggro to pull aggro vs a player in melee only having to do 10% more.

He's saying that a ranged person must do 30% more threat than the person with aggro while a melee person must do 10% more threat than the person with aggro to steal aggro from the tank. You said:

No, he clearly stated that ranged dps do 30% less threat than melee wich is not true.

That's not what he's saying. There's nothing in there saying that one type does more or less threat than the other type. His original argument had to do with the fact that a ranged person can do more damage and more threat on a target being tanked without pulling off the tank than a melee person can. He was pointing this out to show that judging top dps by who is pulling off the tank might be flawed.

[jukrie]

He's saying that a ranged person must do 30% more threat than the person with aggro while a melee person must do 10% more threat than the person with aggro to steal aggro from the tank.

 

 

That's not what he's saying. There's nothing in there saying that one type does more or less threat than the other type. His original argument had to do with the fact that a ranged person can do more damage and more threat on a target being tanked without pulling off the tank than a melee person can. He was pointing this out to show that judging top dps by who is pulling off the tank might be flawed.

 

 

Every dps ability does the same threat ranged or melee doesn't matter, as long as it's not an ability that clearly states: high amount of threat (only tanks have those) as long as a for example blastering assault (melee dmg) does 1k dmg and grav round (range dmg) does 1k dmg it is the same amount of threat. same.