End Game Mechanics - Sorcerer LVL 50

[Kelosane]

Hello Everyone,

 

I play on Black Vulkars and I'm getting into Hard Mode EV tonight. This question is really only for people who have level 50 Operation experience, not to sound like an elitist *******, but this situation calls for it.

 

I'm trying to find out what is the best spec for Operations... however, I am aware of how DPS is balanced, and I know that argument, and I am asking everyone to throw that out the window. I am trying to find out exactly what everyone thinks about Opping on EV with different specs.

 

For Madness, it's a lot of ramp up time, but when everything is loaded, your dps just MELTS FACES. I'm looking at 800-1k dot crits with Force Lightning critting for 1200 a tick. However, the ramp up time is pretty severe before you can keep your rotations going. Plus Death Field is critting for about 3.8 or so with cooldowns.

 

I also used lightning and had amazing results as well, but lightning strike crits are hitting around the 1100 mark, with Thundering Blast doing 3.2k crits and Chain Lightning doing 3.8k crits. My crit damages are around the same for my key skills just like Madness, but there isn't ramp up time to start smashing out the damage, but I feel that spamming lightning strike with everything else down kinda feels weak. Same with spamming FL with Madness.

 

With Madness you gain mobility, but you fall short on fights like Soa where he's constantly shielding. Lightning works better there because its a lot of stop and go DPSing. With PVP, if I'm free-casting, I feel that I kill players faster with Madness rather than lightning. It makes me wonder about PVE as well.

 

But again, on the other side of the coin, Madness really shines with Bonethrasher, it's a long continuous fight that requires a lot of moving. You can just keep running unless you are FLing. You never lose dps from moving because everything is instant.

 

Does anyone know how to get hard numbers on this? Did anyone do a manual parse, like say get a 5 minute video and breaking down the numbers per second of the video? I'm on the fence of both specs, if I'm missing something, I would love to hear it. Also, certain abilities scale better with damage, like Force Lightning has that awesome 20% damage buff, but I used that in both Madness and Lightning specs.

 

Anywho, I am just looking for a general consensus that from people that have cleared current Opping content, Normal HM or NM.

 

tl:dr Both Lightning and Madness are viable, what do you think works the best with the current content mechanics of EV and KP?

[Pwnyride]

The current consensus from around the forums seems to be that neither of them is the best but a inbtwn hybrid is optimal. Alot of us are running with 0/13L/28M build that gets rid of creeping terror to combine to grab chain lightning. CL combined with wrath giving it 20% more dmg and being instant cast with wrath procs has a higher net dps gain than creeping terror. The spec has decent mobility and puts out quite alot of dmg while being extremly force efficent for long winded fights.

 

Unfortunatly I have no raw data to give to you like a parse or anything unfortunatly but the ramp up doesnt seem like much with this spec.

Edited January 18, 2012 by Pwnyride

[Kelosane]

Oh woooowwww I didn't even think of a Hybrid Wrath Spec. But you lose thundering blast? So what skill do you fill with? Lightning Strike for instant CL? Or Force Lightning for harder wrath? Or do you spam strike and when you get the proc, you force lightning to get wrath to instant gib?

[Pwnyride]

Oh woooowwww I didn't even think of a Hybrid Wrath Spec. But you lose thundering blast? So what skill do you fill with? Lightning Strike for instant CL? Or Force Lightning for harder wrath? Or do you spam strike and when you get the proc, you force lightning to get wrath to instant gib?

 

Well the spec is a deep madness spec without going to creeping terror so that you can get chain lightning and lightning barrage.

 

LS is basically uneeded for this spec what so ever. FL will be your filler for 2 reasons. Chance to proc wrath causing ur CL and Crushing darkness to deal 20% more dmg and be instant cast, and 2) with sith efficacy it has a force net gain. -27 cost of Force Lightning with 9% cost talent + 24 Base regen over 3 sec channel + 24 force from sith efficacy(1% of 600 force X 4 ticks from FL) = 21 force gained at the end of the channel.

 

The rotation looks like this: Priority based

 

1)Keep affliction up at all times( crits gain 30% bonus from creeping death, 15% dmg from Force Horrors, 20% from deathmark, and has chance to proc Lightning barrage, More FLs = more wrath procs)

 

2) Use Deathfield on CD. Causes deathmark debuff causing your perodic effects from crushing darkness and affliction to do 20% more dmg. Also does really good dmg itself.

 

3) Force Lightning spam until you get a wrath proc

 

4) Instant cast Crushing darkness

 

5) instant cast chain lightning

 

6) you can use LS for a wrath proc in the event that CL and CD is on cooldown(this is like an unrealistic rarity... and most people will just wait the extrasecond and pop another CL since this will in most cases cause more dmg waiting for it than wasting a wrath proc on LS.)

 

Pretty much everything except ur Force regen filler is used as an instant cast with crazy bonus dmg added. Great mobility. U can use Shocks when moving and have no Wrath proc and affliction has plenty of time left/ death field is on CD.

 

I find this spec to have the greatest longevity of any build while not giving up any dps ability in the process.

 

Here is the base build: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#201ZcsMzdZcrcRsMkrc.1

 

I myself use 2/2 lightning barrier, I dont find 5yrds extra range for one ability to be worth an extra 10% to my shield.

Edited January 18, 2012 by Pwnyride

[Gyrovague]

Sorry, not a 50 Sorcerer but the following is useful for any class.

 

In the absence of meters/logs, use a spreadsheet.

 

In the columns put:

Ability Name

Min Damage

Max Damage

Average Damage (i.e. average of last two columns)

Cast Time (which is still 1.5 even if it's instant, because of GCD)

Force Cost

 

Then add two more columns:

AvgDamage/Time

AvgDamage/Force

 

When you're bursting with no regard for force, you want to use your biggest Damage/Time abilities, but in a sustained fight you might need your Damage/Force abilities.

 

Now, once you have your base abilities in there, you can start adding rows for special conditions, such as Lightning Barrage. You can add additional rows to represent talent choices, and see how those talents affect the value of different abilities. What you might find out is that certain abilities are not useful UNLESS some kind of proc has been triggered from a different ability. For example, I play an Assassin and my Thrash has a 50% chance to make my next Shock a crit. A guaranteed Shock crit has very different DPS/DPF values from a Shock with the normal chance to crit.

 

Now stare at all those DPF/DPS values for a while and you'll start to see which abilities to use in which situations.

 

It won't give you as precise DPS predictions as some of the 3rd Party wow tools, but you might find it more useful than a simple combat log parse.

Edited January 18, 2012 by Gyrovague

[terryn]

I'll point out i think gearing will also have an entirely different effect on each spec. Surge is going to be HUGELY beneficial for lightning with all of the auto crit abilities and increased crit chance. Also surge % increase is pretty substantial on gear per point of itemization, only requiring around 5.5 surge per % increase on your crit damage. Another note is that alacrity will begin being of more help for lightning when the whole cast time bug has been fixed up!

 

A few other questions to raise would be things like:

With being required 110% accuracy (I could also be wrong on this number) for raid bosses, what is the effect of going over this 110%? I have heard claims of it reducing resistances on bosses. If so, what are the passive resistance values in place and what effect does this increased value have on them?

 

The primary issue with this whole thing is there is just no way to GET data to get end game mechanics outside of crude simulations outside of game. With no combat log, and nothing like recount from WoW, there is just no way to validate anything in any simulation made in the current state of the game.

[Pwnyride]

Posted twicee >.> Edited January 18, 2012 by Pwnyride

[Pwnyride]

I'll point out i think gearing will also have an entirely different effect on each spec. Surge is going to be HUGELY beneficial for lightning with all of the auto crit abilities and increased crit chance. Also surge % increase is pretty substantial on gear per point of itemization, only requiring around 5.5 surge per % increase on your crit damage. Another note is that alacrity will begin being of more help for lightning when the whole cast time bug has been fixed up!

 

A few other questions to raise would be things like:

With being required 110% accuracy (I could also be wrong on this number) for raid bosses, what is the effect of going over this 110%? I have heard claims of it reducing resistances on bosses. If so, what are the passive resistance values in place and what effect does this increased value have on them?

 

The primary issue with this whole thing is there is just no way to GET data to get end game mechanics outside of crude simulations outside of game. With no combat log, and nothing like recount from WoW, there is just no way to validate anything in any simulation made in the current state of the game.

 

The 110% accuracy is for the Sin, because mobs can deflect/parry from behind this is he required accuracy needed to be effective for melee. The accuracy requirment is not needed for sorcs since we are at 100% base. And anything over 100% reduces resistance but u will not see larger gains going over 100% than you would by just stacking more power.

[Pwnyride]

Also b4 you start going nuts stacking crit and surge, you need to remember that it has dimnishing returns as u approach 50% surge rating on gear and 30% crit from crit rating. Its more benifical to get crit modifier to around 75-80% and crit% to around 35%(from willpower, crit rating, and base 5%). Then stack power. Having a balance of crit/surge and power will have higher dps gains. Then str8 surge/crit. Power/Force power has no diminishing returns. Edited January 18, 2012 by Pwnyride

[terryn]

I'm not saying stack crit and surge sky high, but I definitely think they will be the favored stat when you are given the option. As always a fine balance between them and the power stat is going to always be best, and willpower without a doubt is still going to be king. I'm just saying out of all of the extra "stats" not including willpower, crit and surge definitely seem like they will be quite effective.

 

I am also curious about how much of an effect alacrity has on the GCD? I would assume it works almost the exact same as with wow. Also with the state of the whole cast time bug, is it even worth it to stack alacrity in the gear set?

[Pwnyride]

I'm not saying stack crit and surge sky high, but I definitely think they will be the favored stat when you are given the option. As always a fine balance between them and the power stat is going to always be best, and willpower without a doubt is still going to be king. I'm just saying out of all of the extra "stats" not including willpower, crit and surge definitely seem like they will be quite effective.

 

I am also curious about how much of an effect alacrity has on the GCD? I would assume it works almost the exact same as with wow. Also with the state of the whole cast time bug, is it even worth it to stack alacrity in the gear set?

 

Alacrity does not lower the gcd of instant cast spells. It will lower the gcd to the cast time of a spell if the cast time drops sub 1.5 seconds.

[Drack]

The 110% accuracy is for the Sin, because mobs can deflect/parry from behind this is he required accuracy needed to be effective for melee. The accuracy requirment is not needed for sorcs since we are at 100% base. And anything over 100% reduces resistance but u will not see larger gains going over 100% than you would by just stacking more power.

 

You do really mean that? Sorc dont need acc at all?

[Obelisk-Kai]

I am of the opinion that ALL the classes are in their infancy right now. What we have now will be unrecognisable in a few years time. The classes WILL change. But we may as well begin to provide our feedback to the developers in order that they understand our concerns.

 

First off, I think the talent point system is dated and that it will inevitably be replaced. I know a lot of people here like bashing WoW simply because it is WoW, but the devs of that game wrestled with that system for seven years before ditching it. The same issues which affect the talent system in WoW affect the talent system in SWTOR. I belive SWTOR shouldn't spend the same length of time trying to work a broken system, but that system will do until the first expansion.

 

Currently we have three playstyle options for DPS. Lightning, Madness and Hybrid. I am going to ignore Hybrid. If a Hybrid build is, as now, superior to a 31 point spec, then the design is broken. Specs should be promote a playstyle, whether it be healing, DOT dps or Direct Damage DPS. Hybrids are only viable if the design behind a tree is flawed, as I believe our DPS trees are flawed. People are free to disagree with me, but effective rotations can only be developed once the dev knows the full suite of abilities you have to use.

 

In simple terms, Lightning is our DD spec. It is a priority system where you use spells in the following order. Affliction, so that Thundering Blast will always crit and to proc Lightning Barrage. Thundering Blast, to get it on cooldown. Crushing Darkness, because it deals such high damage. Chain Lightning and Force Lightning to be used on their relevant procs. and Lightning Strike as filler.

 

Conversely, Madness is our DOT spec. It is based upon applying dots to the target and using Force Lightning filler to fish for Wrath procs. Crushing Darkness is a much more damaging ability in this spec, and due to the number of instant casts the spec also has a lot of mobility.

 

Both specs actually share a lot of abilities, with the talents modifying them in certain ways so that they perform differently. Affliction in Lightning is enhanced by Exsanguinate to last longer, which helps with Thundering Blast and Lightning Barrage. Under Madness however, Force Horrors increases the damage Affliction deals.

 

I believe that both Madness and Lightning should be built from the common ground and toolkit they currently hold into more distinctive and fun specs. Crushing Darkness is viable to be cast as part of the Lightning rotation due to it's high damage. Lightning however has to track one spell cooldown and two procs on a small UI as it is.

I would suggest lowering the base damage of Crushing Darkness and folding the damage into the Lingering Nightmares talent, making Crushing Darkness a distinctive madness ability for all intents and purposes.

 

On the subject of Lightning, Thundering Blast is a cool looking nuke, but it's HUGE cast time and sub-par damage mean it's not very attractive. I would propose adding Thundering Blast into the Lightning Storm Talent. Under this idea, Thundering Blast would become an instant cast alternative to Chain Lightning whenever Lightning Storm procs. On single targets, Thundering Blast would be the preferred choice. It would even help in group situations, as instant cast chain lightning is useless in a situation where you have a cc'ed mob. It becomes a wasted proc.

 

Chain Lightning should be nerfed to make Hybrid builds unattractive and to promote the distinctive nature of Lightning. To make up for this, perhaps an instant cast Chain Lightning/Thundering Blast under the affects of Lightning Storm could receive a damage boost.

 

Those are my rough thoughts. I believe that the numbers are irrelevant, damage numbers can be tweaked to fit new choices and new rotations/priority systems. I firmly believe that Madness and Lightning do need to be streamlined and to be made somewhat more distinctive from each other, and this is my way of contributing to the dialogue of bringing that about.

Edited January 19, 2012 by Obelisk-Kai

[Daellia]

6) you can use LS for a wrath proc in the event that CL and CD is on cooldown(this is like an unrealistic rarity... and most people will just wait the extrasecond and pop another CL since this will in most cases cause more dmg waiting for it than wasting a wrath proc on LS.)

 

Never use LS for Wrath. Never. Even with the 20% boost from Wrath, Force Lightning does more DPCT than LS ever will.

[Crazysithslayer]

Chain Lightning should be nerfed to make Hybrid builds unattractive and to promote the distinctive nature of Lightning. To make up for this, perhaps an instant cast Chain Lightning/Thundering Blast under the affects of Lightning Storm could receive a damage boost.

 

 

I disagree with this, nerfing results in nothing but a gimped class as a whole. Hybrid allows people to mix skills from different trees bringing up alternate playstyles. What you're suggesting is you can only play this or this spec in order to be effective.

 

Instead of nerfing current builds the effectiveness of a Madness or Lightning build should be brought up to the same level as a hybrid. Thundering Blast and Creeping Terror themselves should be improved somehow offering players the ability to either play full Madness, full Lightning, or Hybrid specs at the same level of effectiveness. Nerfing and gimping one thing will not improve the other.

 

The whole idea of nerfing should be thrown out the window by BW. This only brings complaints and unhappy players. We should instead find the optimal class/build and raise everything else to a similar level.

Edited January 19, 2012 by Crazysithslayer

[Obelisk-Kai]

The whole idea of nerfing should be thrown out the window by BW. This only brings complaints and unhappy players. We should instead find the optimal class/build and raise everything else to a similar level.

 

The problem with hybrid specs is that it undermines the distinctiveness of the playstyle that the particular spec is trying to promote. Eventually the developers will likely move to deliberately break Hybrid specs simply to give themselves an easier time balancing things.

 

Nerfing is here to stay however. The alternative is insane stat and damage inflation.

[Crazysithslayer]

The problem with hybrid specs is that it undermines the distinctiveness of the playstyle that the particular spec is trying to promote. Eventually the developers will likely move to deliberately break Hybrid specs simply to give themselves an easier time balancing things.

 

Nerfing is here to stay however. The alternative is insane stat and damage inflation.

 

Just because it undermines YOU'RE idea of a playstyle does not mean other feel the same way. Hybrid itself creates a DISTINCT playstyle. Lightning the nuke spec, Madness the dot spec and Hybrid creates a combination of dots with a smaller amount of nuking. There is nothing wrong with that type of playstyle and some people prefer it. Like I said again, just make Lightning and Madness JUST AS VIABLE as a Hybrid. Don't gimp hybrid just so that people play lightning and madness therefore gimping the class as a whole.

[Obelisk-Kai]

Just because it undermines YOU'RE idea of a playstyle does not mean other feel the same way. Hybrid itself creates a DISTINCT playstyle. Lightning the nuke spec, Madness the dot spec and Hybrid creates a combination of dots with a smaller amount of nuking. There is nothing wrong with that type of playstyle and some people prefer it. Like I said again, just make Lightning and Madness JUST AS VIABLE as a Hybrid. Don't gimp hybrid just so that people play lightning and madness therefore gimping the class as a whole.

 

Hybrids specs have always caused all kinds of issues.

 

Most prominently, they are unstable because they are very vulnerable to balancing. Talents placed too low in the tree might be moved higher because the devs want to balance the Lightning spec within the Lightning tree. If the talent they moved is Chain Lightning for example, then the Hybrid spec collapses.

 

If they alter a Lightning or Madness talent to the benefit of either spec but at the detriment of Hybrid they will do it. Hybrid does not have the same protection as the dedicated spec. The DPS of a hybrid build probably won't enter too much into their deliberations, but the DPS of Lightning and Madness most definitely will.

 

Now I'm only saying Hybrid specs should be nerfed now because one way or the other, they will end up done away with at some point. In fact, if the Madness or Lightning trees are improved, and they will be, then Hybrids will become redundant anyways. Why grow attached to a playstyle that only has prominence now because the two intended playstyles are badly designed? Instead of defending something that is indefensible, people should focus on improving Madness and Lightning.

[Jadalyn]

Well said, Obelisk.

 

I am more interested in investing in a single tree to reflect a strength in a particular playstyle. (i.e. single target, burst, or AoE specialities)

 

If a hybrid spec offers more damage output than any one tree, then I would say the deeper talents in the dps trees are effectively useless and need to be improved/balanced.

[Ashkelon]

Bioware will do whatever they decide is best. Whether they decide to buff the end tier talents or to leave hybrid specs as being strong, we can't know what and we don't know how long from now any changes may come.

 

For now, Sorcerers will spend their talents in such a way as to make themselves as effective at their role as possible. Whether that be hybrid or full 31 in something.

 

Downing on people using an optimum spec because it's not how you want things to be is idiotic. Respec costs are cheap and most people seem to enjoy the tools that the hybrid specs give us.

 

Sorcerers are strong at the moment and people are enjoying them as they are. And we'll all roll with any changes Bioware eventually decides to roll out. That's how MMOs work.