A Response to James Ohlen

[DannyInternets]

The "basics" everyone claims are missing are not "basics", they're fluff. They're not necessary to run an MMO, nor are they necessary to do well in said MMO.

 

Sorry, we can't all have such low standards as yourself. Reasonable people consider features standard in all other major MMO releases to be part of the "basics."

[SickSwag]

I see no difference in this game from wow.

 

They even copied wow spells and renamed them.

 

A simple google search can prove this easily.

 

I see no innovation in taking aspects from Mass Effect and throwing it together with a WoW in space mmo.

 

As a customer, I am not impressed.

[Rhime]

I agree completely,

Good points on the missing features especially the UI.

I'd like to add the lack of guild features was confusing to me considering we were allowed to "register" your guild to a server, but upon launch of the game, there were no real functional features for guilds to speak of. Things like guild housing, banks, xp bonuses, banners or logos are sadly missing and the first step with guild banks isn't even scheduled until March!

I lead my guild and play every night with the wife at my side, but for how long I can only speculate. The newness of the game is still here since we are casual gamers(I only have one toon rolled) and my hopes are that sooner then later the missing features will be added or else I fear the game will begin to slide down where the game haters will grab it and drag it under where they dwell.

[Kanharn]

He is comparing TOR to FPS games.

That right there says it all in a nut shell that he doesn't get the genre at all.

They are pretending this is an MMO when it is not.

 

Because other MMO's are so different to this one lol, Please tell us how this is not an MMO when compared to other MMO's lol.

 

I wont hold my breath for an answer.

[Xabos]

The "basics" everyone claims are missing are not "basics", they're fluff. They're not necessary to run an MMO, nor are they necessary to do well in said MMO.

 

You're right. I mean who needs to actually have something happen when I push a key?

 

I'm so glad they were able to get that waving emote fixed for the speeders though. That was innovation there.

[Waypoc]

Um no genious (spell check), hes is stating that the MMO GENRE, is a GENRE like FPS is a GENRE. Stating that MMO's follow certain patterns and rules. just like other genres such as FPS.

 

No Genius. Read the first paragraph. He is comparing it to FPS type games.

 

My problem is why mention it at all. The only comparison that should be made is with other MMO's past and present. By even mentioning that BW is doing something better than the FPS genre, he belies that they screwed the pooch in the traditional MMO world.

 

There is but maybe 20% of this game that pushes the MMO genre forward. The rest is old, restrictive and non MMO.

Edited January 21, 2012 by Paralassa
content quote

[Kanharn]

I see no difference in this game from wow.

 

They even copied wow spells and renamed them.

 

A simple google search can prove this easily.

 

I see no innovation in taking aspects from Mass Effect and throwing it together with a WoW in space mmo.

 

As a customer, I am not impressed.

That means WoW copy all its features from SWG then and COD and BF 3 is just a Doom clone ROFL.

 

When people know so little it makes me lol

[Kanharn]

Innovated the questing experience? How so? At the end of the day, for all their voice acting polish, I was still killing 0/10 spiders and collecting 0/6 bear tongues. BioWare has not deviated from the same kind of game that has dominated MMOs since WoW's inception.

 

Crafting? They've gone backwards when it comes to crafting. BioChem is the only profession worth any merit and relegating crafting as some menial task to be assigned to companions takes the fun out of the whole thing.

 

Companion system? Again, how did they innovate? I prefer my Warlock demon from WoW. At least its AI is good.

 

Comparing a WoW pet to a companion in TOR lol, Im guessing you never played woW.

[Rogueish]

He is comparing TOR to FPS games.

That right there says it all in a nut shell that he doesn't get the genre at all.

They are pretending this is an MMO when it is not.

 

 

Your lack of reading comprehension astounds me. He's not comparing TOR to FPS games. What he's saying is that other genres frequently feature games with almost no innovation that are resounding successes, at least from a sales perspective.

 

What was the best selling game of 2011? Modern Warfare 3. How different was it from Black Ops or MW2?

 

A game doesn't have to be innovative to be a success. In fact, most of the crying (and it really can't be described as anything else) I see on these forums is about features that other MMOs have that SWTOR doesn't have yet.

 

Even so, there are legitimate design reasons why they may not want to have combat logging, or macros, or a LFG tool. Personally I wish all three were incorporated, and they may well come. I can respect those design decisions, though, while lobbying to have them changed.

 

If not having a combat log so you can wave DPS meters in peoples faces, or macros so you can spam one button, or a LFG tool so you don't have to socialize or worry about your reputation causes you so much grief that you can't play, then go play something else.

[Waypoc]

Because other MMO's are so different to this one lol, Please tell us how this is not an MMO when compared to other MMO's lol.

 

I wont hold my breath for an answer.

 

Here you go on what needs changing to make this an MMO worth really sticking around for:

 

• Community
  
• More People - Stop the Sharding/Instancing
  
• Pets
  
• Animal Mounts
  
• Scalable UI
  
• Chat Bubbles
  
• Less Gated Gameplay
  
• True Open Worlds
  
• More mystical mysterious Gameplay. You know, like Star Wars
  
• Movable UI
  
• Player Housing - Non-Instanced - No there would not be a blight if they just added rent with limits on how much you could pre-pay
  
• More in-depth Meaningful Crafting
  
• More in-depth Meaningful Harvesting
  
• Remove the mountain Walls, regular walls. Stop making me run 5 miles in one direction to get to an obkective that is just on the other side of another wall
  
• More Immersion
  
• More Planets with no Level Range. All levels are there, low and high. Be Careful.
  
• Broker that works
  
• Guild Halls - Non-Instanced
  
• No Mobs on every single node and every single path. It's ridiculous.
  
• No Combat Delay
  
• Better Textures.
  
• Food
  
• Armor that has a base stat so that it is actually worth something more than appearance
  
• Open World PvP with actual rewards so that everyone isn't always in WZ's on PvP Servers.
  

[Kanharn]

Your lack of reading comprehension astounds me. He's not comparing TOR to FPS games. What he's saying is that other genres frequently feature games with almost no innovation that are resounding successes, at least from a sales perspective.

 

What was the best selling game of 2011? Modern Warfare 3. How different was it from Black Ops or MW2?

 

A game doesn't have to be innovative to be a success. In fact, most of the crying (and it really can't be described as anything else) I see on these forums is about features that other MMOs have that SWTOR doesn't have yet.

 

Even so, there are legitimate design reasons why they may not want to have combat logging, or macros, or a LFG tool. Personally I wish all three were incorporated, and they may well come. I can respect those design decisions, though, while lobbying to have them changed.

 

If not having a combat log so you can wave DPS meters in peoples faces, or macros so you can spam one button, or a LFG tool so you don't have to socialize or worry about your reputation causes you so much grief that you can't play, then go play something else.

 

agreed

[CommieKras]

Comparing a WoW pet to a companion in TOR lol, Im guessing you never played woW.

 

I see that you have not refuted my argument.

 

The only thing companions have on WoW pets is that they talk. And you can have romance with them but I did that with my Hunter's tiger anyway. At least until I got banned.

[Waypoc]

Your lack of reading comprehension astounds me. He's not comparing TOR to FPS games. What he's saying is that other genres frequently feature games with almost no innovation that are resounding successes, at least from a sales perspective.

 

What was the best selling game of 2011? Modern Warfare 3. How different was it from Black Ops or MW2?

 

A game doesn't have to be innovative to be a success. In fact, most of the crying (and it really can't be described as anything else) I see on these forums is about features that other MMOs have that SWTOR doesn't have yet.

 

Even so, there are legitimate design reasons why they may not want to have combat logging, or macros, or a LFG tool. Personally I wish all three were incorporated, and they may well come. I can respect those design decisions, though, while lobbying to have them changed.

 

If not having a combat log so you can wave DPS meters in peoples faces, or macros so you can spam one button, or a LFG tool so you don't have to socialize or worry about your reputation causes you so much grief that you can't play, then go play something else.

 

Read my posts above and be astounded. Sorry if I did not articulate my position clearly enough. LOL

[Sealunar]

Sir, I think you are me because that's exactly how I feel. You win this day.

[Waypoc]

agreed

 

See above as well.

[BobTheTeepo]

Here you go on what needs changing to make this an MMO worth really sticking around for:

 

• Community (?)
  
• More People - Stop the Sharding/Instancing (Instancing disagree, sharding agree)
  
• Pets (They... have... pets... Companions = pets for this game)
  
• Animal Mounts (This is NEEDED to make the game worth staying for? Really? I don't even want this)
  
• Scalable UI (It'd be nice to have)
  
• Chat Bubbles (It'd be nice to have)
  
• Less Gated Gameplay
  
• True Open Worlds (Disagree)
  
• More mystical mysterious Gameplay. You know, like Star Wars (EH?)
  
• Movable UI (It'd be nice to have)
  
• Player Housing - Non-Instanced - No there would not be a blight if they just added rent with limits on how much you could pre-pay (Disagree)
  
• More in-depth Meaningful Crafting (Agreed)
  
• More in-depth Meaningful Harvesting (Disagree)
  
• Remove the mountain Walls, regular walls. Stop making me run 5 miles in one direction to get to an obkective that is just on the other side of another wall (Disagree, not everything should be easy for you to get to)
  
• More Immersion (I'm immersed PLENTY)
  
• More Planets with no Level Range. All levels are there, low and high. Be Careful. (Why?)
  
• Broker that works (Agree)
  
• Guild Halls - Non-Instanced (Coming)
  
• No Mobs on every single node and every single path. It's ridiculous. (Eh, agree I suppose)
  
• No Combat Delay (Coming)
  
• Better Textures. (Coming)
  
• Food (What? Why? Disagree)
  
• Armor that has a base stat so that it is actually worth something more than appearance (?)
  
• Open World PvP with actual rewards so that everyone isn't always in WZ's on PvP Servers. (Coming and agreed)
  

 

Responded in parentheses above.

Edited January 18, 2012 by BobTheTeepo

[gurugeorge]

Yes, you've done some spectacular things for making an engaging leveling experience that appeals to a wide range of playstyles all while telling a very cinematic story.

 

But you don't have a combat log. You don't have a customizable UI. You don't have macros. You don't have add-on support.

 

Umm, I rather think the second paragraph brings up trivialities in relation to the good aspect of the first.

 

Your animation/GCD priority is backwards.

 

This seems speculative. "Ability delay" is the most serious problem the game has, certainly, but nobody really knows what causes "it" (it might be a bunch of closely related "its") apart from the devs.

 

Your auction house is a mess. Finding a group hasn't been this difficult since 2007. And you can't even keep your camera from auto-moving to your back.

 

Again, mostly trivial when set against what the game does that's innovative (i.e. bringing BioWare-type story content/dialogue choice/puppet show, into the MMO experience for people to play AS GROUPS).

 

Apart from ability delay and possibly the low-performance problem, none of the negatives you bring up are anything that can't be ironed out in a few months, and considering the general level of polish of the game, you'd have to have it in for the game, or to be a not-very-experienced gamer, to be put off by them to the extent of ragging on the game (if you don't like the game fair enough, but to go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on about it, like some do here - that's rather odd).

[Viga]

To everyone who says "This game isn't innovative":

 

Please go to your local library, find a dictionary and look up the definition of "Innovation".

 

Then come back and tell me that Bioware hasn't innovated the questing experience of MMOs.

 

As well as the crafting and companion systems of MMOs.

 

Ok.... how is go to x, pickup y, kill z ANY different or innovative than any other mmo? The story might be pretty cool but there isn't any innovation in the questing.

[chumppi]

Pretty much agree on every point. Especially the "this game is missing xxxx" part

[BobTheTeepo]

My problem is why mention it at all. The only comparison that should be made is with other MMO's past and present. By even mentioning that BW is doing something better than the FPS genre, he belies that they screwed the pooch in the traditional MMO world.

 

There is but maybe 20% of this game that pushes the MMO genre forward. The rest is old, restrictive and non MMO.

 

He's not necessarily comparing it DIRECTLY to those games, he's using those games as an example. Notice how games of other genres tend to stick to methods that work? New shooters pretty much all have aim down sight, for example, those that don't have a zoom in feature for aiming. There are just a lot of gameplay mechanics that genres tend to stick with from one generation from the other, because they've worked in past games.

 

WoW isn't the only successful MMO over, it may be the MOST successful MMO ever, but just because Abraham Lincoln was the best president ever, that does not mean that no other president was good. MMOs like Aion, Rift, Guild Wars, EvE, FFXI etc. Have been quite successful, just not anywhere near WoW.

 

Whether it was right of them to stick with certain mechanics or not is a whole other beast. But the comparison he made was only to show that games don't always innovate in ALL areas, and games don't have to innovate in all areas to be good. CoD, GoW, and BF are prime examples, they innovate in some areas, but keep a lot of the same core mechanics (though Gears of War is more innovative than the other two).

[gurugeorge]

Ok.... how is go to x, pickup y, kill z ANY different or innovative than any other mmo? The story might be pretty cool but there isn't any innovation in the questing.

 

Why should there be?

 

That's the point Ohlen was making - people don't complain about fps-es "oh, you're just running around shooting things, where's the innovation in that?"

 

Well, MMOs largely are - go to x, pickup y, kill z, etc., etc., etc. ad nauseam. Devs can put a bit of variation in now and then (and there is some variety in SWTOR quests here and there), but the bulk of an MMO has to be that, as it would take decades to make a game full of totally innovative gameplay, by which time computer technology would have moved on so far the game would be well out of date tech-wise.

 

Actually, if people took content slower and savoured it more (or if people accepted mechanics like permadeath) then devs could be more original, but because so many people rush the content and want more and more content, they have to put tons of content in, therefore it has to be largely of the same kind (given time and money constraints).

[Ansultares]

It took innovation to make a game this bad and still turn a profit on box-sales alone.

No, it took a brand name and a legendary IP. Edited January 18, 2012 by Ansultares

[Srqt]

The "basics" everyone claims are missing are not "basics", they're fluff. They're not necessary to run an MMO, nor are they necessary to do well in said MMO.

 

Thank you.

 

Combat logs and UI tweaks are good features that I hope will find their way into the game but they are not needed to play or enjoy an MMO they are pure fluff.

[Kanharn]

Here you go on what needs changing to make this an MMO worth really sticking around for:

 

• Community
  Game has a great one, My 30 strong guild proves this and the fun we have. Sounds like your problem for not getting involved
  
• More People - Stop the Sharding/Instancing
  We already know this will be going, this is not the first MMO to do this.
  
• Pets
  a very silly reason, pets are in game, go look at the light side or Darkside vendor.
  
• Animal Mounts
  Not every MMO has this and again a stupid reason not to call this an MMO.
  
• Scalable UI
  We know this is coming and again a silly and has no relevance on it being an MMO.
  
• Chat Bubbles
  In your opinion, I hate chat bubbles, this also does not make an MMO an MMO.
  
• Less Gated Gameplay
  
• True Open Worlds
  Clearly you do not know the difference between a sandbox MMO and a Theam park MMO. you should have followed the game closer before launch as this is not surprise.
  
• More mystical mysterious Gameplay. You know, like Star Wars
  This makes no sense.
  
• Movable UI
  See above answer for UI
  
• Player Housing - Non-Instanced - No there would not be a blight if they just added rent with limits on how much you could pre-pay
  Not all MMO's have this, again this is something you want in game, not something that makes an MMO an MMO.
  
• More in-depth Meaningful Crafting
  Like in all MMO's this comes over time, as it stands its better then WoW and many others
  
• More in-depth Meaningful Harvesting
  See above answer. also its better then most MMO's.
  
• Remove the mountain Walls, regular walls. Stop making me run 5 miles in one direction to get to an objective that is just on the other side of another wall
  Lean about the different types of MMO's and why the game does not have this
  
• More Immersion
  In your opinion, My game immersion has been just fine.
  
• More Planets with no Level Range. All levels are there, low and high. Be Careful.
  This would be a new feature to MMO's as all areas in every MMO are based on level.
  
• Broker that works
  We know this is being fixed.
  
• Guild Halls - Non-Instanced
  We know Guild capital ships are being added, maybe use more of this site then the player forums.
  
• No Mobs on every single node and every single path. It's ridiculous.
  I dont find this. I collect many nodes and dont have to fight
  
• No Combat Delay
  This is only affecting a few people, I have not been affected by this.
  
• Better Textures.
  We know this is being added, the first part of this will come with the patch later in the week.
  
• Food
  Clearly you have not been to a Canteen as food and drink can be purchased in there.
  
• Armor that has a base stat so that it is actually worth something more than appearance
  The armor I craft and lots I find do, Have you played the game ?
  
• Open World PvP with actual rewards so that everyone isn't always in WZ's on PvP Servers.
  This is an Issues with many MMO's.
  

 

After reading this list, Im beginning to see the problem with are community and the general forum user.

Its clear most are not even following what the devs say or just want silly, pointless features adding to the game.

 

Im also starting to think these people have never even played an MMO.

 

My faith in the general gaming community has been diminished after reading this post and the many problems with it.

 

Considering my Comment to you was to tell me why TOR is not an MMO and these are the reason you gave me, You have made me very sad and feel are community is filled with people who don't have a clue what they are talking about.

 

Today is a sad day in gaming.

[Sengoku-jedai]

Your lack of reading comprehension astounds me. He's not comparing TOR to FPS games. What he's saying is that other genres frequently feature games with almost no innovation that are resounding successes, at least from a sales perspective.

 

What was the best selling game of 2011? Modern Warfare 3. How different was it from Black Ops or MW2?

 

A game doesn't have to be innovative to be a success. In fact, most of the crying (and it really can't be described as anything else) I see on these forums is about features that other MMOs have that SWTOR doesn't have yet.

 

Even so, there are legitimate design reasons why they may not want to have combat logging, or macros, or a LFG tool. Personally I wish all three were incorporated, and they may well come. I can respect those design decisions, though, while lobbying to have them changed.

 

If not having a combat log so you can wave DPS meters in peoples faces, or macros so you can spam one button, or a LFG tool so you don't have to socialize or worry about your reputation causes you so much grief that you can't play, then go play something else.

 

 

This.