A Response to James Ohlen

[MrTijger]

This guy should just take out the "creative" word out of his title. He's just a typical clueless project manager.

 

Obviously, he led Baldurs Gate, NWN and DAO, he must be totally clueless

[Sunsoar]

Yawn.

 

I'd rather see phased storytelling in a dynamic world which actually changes and feels alive, rather than trapped in a snapshot of time.

 

This.

 

Another thing fought hard for in beta. This 'epic' story telling without the phasing to show our effects of our choices and actions. Another piece of the puzzle they missed/ignored.

[thasaint]

Yeah they never listened. Remember the threads that were pages upon pages of people wanting the "Match to Chest" option back in the game?

 

Yeah... we obviously weren't seeing "...how the technology is going to stand up...", and that was more than a "small tweak" I guess.

[thasaint]

Obviously, he led Baldurs Gate, NWN and DAO, he must be totally clueless

 

He is about MMO's at the least.

[Archetypee]

Bet none of 'em did it all within one year let alone one month.

 

Right, but his statement was that they learned lessons from other MMOs and then refined them. You're telling me that they didn't learn that people want dungeon finders, customizeable UIs, and the ability to select warzones? They clearly didn't learn the lessons, ignored the lessons, or don't have the resources to implement them.

[GalacticKegger]

And as for a mismatch between what they were developing and what some players expected, I can't help but think BioWare has to take responsibility for that. That's why there is a PR department.

Pretty such Bioware was up front about what style of gameplay their customers could expect, though still waiting on some of the features. An exerpt from their first press release:

 

"Traditionally, massively multiplayer online games have been about three basic gameplay pillars - combat, exploration and character progression," said Dr. Ray Muzyka, Co-Founder and General Manager/CEO of BioWare and General Manager/Vice President of Electronic Arts Inc., "In Star Wars: The Old Republic, we’re fusing BioWare’s heritage of critically-acclaimed storytelling with the amazing pedigree of Lucasfilm and LucasArts, and adding a brand-new fourth pillar to the equation – story. At the same time, we will still deliver all the fun features and activities that fans have come to expect in a AAA massively multiplayer online game. To top it all off, Star Wars: The Old Republic is set in a very exciting, dynamic period in the Star Wars universe."

 

http://www.swtor.com/news/press-release/20081021_001

Edited January 20, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[RocNessMonster]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1320395/fullcredits#cast

 

True, at cost of the game.

 

Whoa they got Quark from DS9 to do some voice acting. Can anyone identify which NPC he plays?

[Lordlok]

Bioware was up front about what style of gameplay their customers could expect, though still waiting on some of the features. An exerpt from their first press release:

 

"Traditionally, massively multiplayer online games have been about three basic gameplay pillars - combat, exploration and character progression," said Dr. Ray Muzyka, Co-Founder and General Manager/CEO of BioWare and General Manager/Vice President of Electronic Arts Inc., "In Star Wars: The Old Republic, we’re fusing BioWare’s heritage of critically-acclaimed storytelling with the amazing pedigree of Lucasfilm and LucasArts, and adding a brand-new fourth pillar to the equation – story. At the same time, we will still deliver all the fun features and activities that fans have come to expect in a AAA massively multiplayer online game . To top it all off, Star Wars: The Old Republic is set in a very exciting, dynamic period in the Star Wars universe."

 

http://www.swtor.com/news/press-release/20081021_001

 

 

 

Nobody is arguing that they didn't deliver a story-driven experience, it's just missing many of the "fun features we have come to expect"

 

But I do appreciate you making and refuting your point all in one paragraph.

[Palathas]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-01-12-bioware-swtor-post-mortem-its-more-innovative-than-an-fps

 

This interview is kind of astounding in how much the game director doesn't seem to "get it".

 

 

Okay, first of all... I'm not looking at other genres. I'm not looking at Battlefield or Call of Duty or Gears of War. Why would you even go there? Furthermore, saying you're more innovative than "Call of Duty: 2011 Update" isn't exactly setting a high standard. I've made rice krispy treats more innovative than the Call of Duty franchise.

 

Secondly... innovation is great, but not when it comes at the expense of the basics.

Other than the combat log that you've stated, what basics are you talking about?

Yes, you've done some spectacular things for making an engaging leveling experience that appeals to a wide range of playstyles all while telling a very cinematic story.

 

But you don't have a combat log. You don't have a customizable UI. You don't have macros. You don't have add-on support. Your animation/GCD priority is backwards. Your auction house is a mess. Finding a group hasn't been this difficult since 2007. And you can't even keep your camera from auto-moving to your back.

None of the bigger MMOs started with customisable UIs and most of them needed you to mod XML files before they added an in-game feature, however the designers did say that they were refining existing features. The good thing is that UI customisation is on the way in the near future. Very few MMOs do have macros. WoW is the only one that I'm aware of but there's lots of newer MMOs that I haven't played. With regard to add-on support, are you referring to UI mods or something else?

 

Which "years and years and years" are you talking about because you seem to have missed most of the lessons on UI design.

In what way have they missed most of the lessons on UI design? You haven't said much here.

When do we get this? Or are we operating on different definitions of "classic"?

What do you consider classic? As far as I can see they've hit the mark here.

That IS what you did. I sure as heck have never played an MMO without a combat log.

A missing parser certainly doesn't make it a completely new design. I think you are trying to say something here..... You aren't happy there isn't a combat log? It isn't needed to make the game functional at all, it's just so people can number crunch and get optimal cookie-cutter builds. Or so those that participate in PvP can say that class x needs to be nerfed because they can't perform as well as the other player, and "here's proof with these numbers...".

I just don't understand it. The bulk of the negative feedback I've seen both here and IRL has been that the game isn't enough like WoW, not that it's not different enough.

 

If you want to be recognized for "raising the bar," I suggest you first meet it.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Palathas

[AidanLightwalker]

And if they think a major change is required? Ignored by Bioware because they know best. You're there to test "...how the technology is going to stand up..."

 

So tired of you "web developer" knowitall fanboys clogging up threads. I drive for a living, so I guess I could comment on racecar drivers and tell people who just drive to the store that they know nothing!

 

Enjoy your stagnating pile of voice acting while you're my ignore list with the rest of the fanboys.

 

Not a good analogy. Racecar driving, lol but I bet those two types could comment on a test drive of the same car and most likely the engineer of the car would already know what to expect from their opinions.

 

Most car manufacturers already know what people are gonna think about the car, since they probably got the same experience when they drove it as well.

 

So your going to add me to your ignore list and then sit here and complain about a game that you seem to be so unsatisfied with?! lol why not just unsub and leave??

[Deewe]

First let's start with a list of features you can have in others AAA MMO.

 

1. Day/night cycles
   
2. Swimming
   
3. Scripted & wandering NPCs
   
4. Critters
   
5. Few zones loading screens
   
6. Planetary housing
   
7. Housing furnishing
   
8. Tweakable UI
   
9. UI Addons
   
10. Macros
    
11. Combat log
    
12. Dual spec
    
13. Non humanoid based playable races
    
14. Animal based pet classes
    
15. Dedicated pet classes
    
16. Non pet classes
    
17. Resources for crafting that have quality
    
18. Guild leveling system
    
19. Guild "Tabard
    
20. Animal mounts
    
21. Flying mounts
    
22. Multiplayer mounts
    
23. No combat delay
    
24. Open world PvP
    
25. PvP Arenas
    
26. Choose which warfront to queue for
    
27. Collision detection between characters
    
28. Deep character body customization
    
29. Gear Dyes
    
30. Appearance tabs
    
31. Barber / Image Designer
    
32. Fishing
    
33. LFG tool
    
34. Guild bank
    
35. Shared storage between alts bank slots
    
36. High resolution textures
    
37. Smoothed out shadows
    
38. In game voice chat
    

 

There's certainly none MMO with all of the above entries but, contrary to TOR, none lacks them all.

 

 

 

Now here's a list of what would have been nice to have in TOR, to name a few:

• Minigames like Pazaak, Sabac or Holo-chess
  
• Multiplayer space content
  
  • 3d space combat
    
  • Choice of space ship chassis
    
  • Decoration mechanic for personal ships
    

  [*]Pod & Swoop racing

  [*]Player bounties

  [*]Companions in Warzones

  [*]Companion Deaths

  [*]Grey path abilities/rewards

We don't even have Pazaak at launch and BioWare owns the source code!

 

Let's talk about the more or less innovative features:

Dialogs have voice over, still the impact on choices is lacking. The Dark sided choices are too often about $$$ or at best killing people. The shared story parts gets old on the first alt due to the lack of impact of story choices.

 

Companions speaks still in single player mode they are so overpowered that one must be foolish to play without them. In multiplayer mode you have to dump a player to be able to play a pet class in a full group.

 

More troubling is:

The supposed epic feeling of playing a Jedi has been hindered with characters playing glowbats in the Huttball.

 

The core design of separating players in 2 opposed factions is about to be thrown to the rubbish with the same faction vs same faction PvP.

 

And they are going to keep wasting even more money on the

Space

shooter. Well even Leia

disagrees

 

==> Please stop butchering your game.

 

 

I personally find this quote sady true:

If you want to be recognized for "raising the bar," I suggest you first meet it.

All in all we ended with a FUN but poorly delivered and unevenly polished co-op/single player game and certainly a poor MMO.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Deewe

[Palathas]

Thanks Deewe, a LOT more constructive info.

 

With regard to Faction PvP even SWG had major Faction balance issues. I don't recall them ever resolving them either. I personally can't think of a way they can, short of restricting the number of each faction on the server.

 

An example would be that if there were 100 more Imperial characters on the server then no more Imperials could be created until more Republic characters were created. That'd ultimately suck though. I really don't know how they could fix it though. It's quite the conundrum.

[BeeblesTV]

How Ohlen got a job after Warhammer boggles my mind.

[Cancrizans]

"Blah blah blah I hate innovation and wanna play tired 10 year old designs with no progress made."

 

"blah blah blah, I have no idea where MMORPGs developed from but I've been playing WoW for 4 years so I know what an MMO is and how they should develop." o.O

 

If only you people who make a habit of confusing MARKETING with PROGRESS would wake up and quit making those of us with brains have to explain to you that not everything that happens in the world is "progress" and "improvement" simply because someone who wants to make money off of something decides to fart pretty enough that you fools buy it, the world would be a better place.

 

But who am I to talk, with my forum warning incoming for "insulting the community"?

[LovarBoy]

First let's start with a list of features you can have in others AAA MMO.

 

1. Day/night cycles
   
2. Swimming
   
3. Scripted & wandering NPCs
   
4. Critters
   
5. Few zones loading screens
   
6. Planetary housing
   
7. Housing furnishing
   
8. Tweakable UI
   
9. UI Addons
   
10. Macros
    
11. Combat log
    
12. Dual spec
    
13. Non humanoid based playable races
    
14. Animal based pet classes
    
15. Dedicated pet classes
    
16. Non pet classes
    
17. Resources for crafting that have quality
    
18. Guild leveling system
    
19. Guild "Tabard
    
20. Animal mounts
    
21. Flying mounts
    
22. Multiplayer mounts
    
23. No combat delay
    
24. Open world PvP
    
25. PvP Arenas
    
26. Choose which warfront to queue for
    
27. Collision detection between characters
    
28. Deep character body customization
    
29. Gear Dyes
    
30. Appearance tabs
    
31. Barber / Image Designer
    
32. Fishing
    
33. LFG tool
    
34. Guild bank
    
35. Shared storage between alts bank slots
    
36. High resolution textures
    
37. Smoothed out shadows
    
38. In game voice chat
    

 

There's certainly none MMO with all of the above entries but, contrary to TOR, none lacks them all.

 

 

 

Now here's a list of what would have been nice to have in TOR, to name a few:

• Minigames like Pazaak, Sabac or Holo-chess
  
• Multiplayer space content
  
  • 3d space combat
    
  • Choice of space ship chassis
    
  • Decoration mechanic for personal ships
    

  [*]Pod & Swoop racing

  [*]Player bounties

  [*]Companions in Warzones

  [*]Companion Deaths

  [*]Grey path abilities/rewards

We don't even have Pazaak at launch and BioWare owns the source code!

 

Let's talk about the more or less innovative features:

Dialogs have voice over, still the impact on choices is lacking. The Dark sided choices are too often about $$$ or at best killing people. The shared story parts gets old on the first alt due to the lack of impact of story choices.

 

Companions speaks still in single player mode they are so overpowered that one must be foolish to play without them. In multiplayer mode you have to dump a player to be able to play a pet class in a full group.

 

More troubling is:

The supposed epic feeling of playing a Jedi has been hindered with characters playing glowbats in the Huttball.

 

The core design of separating players in 2 opposed factions is about to be thrown to the rubbish with the same faction vs same faction PvP.

 

And they are going to keep wasting even more money on the

Space

shooter. Well even Leia

disagrees

 

==> Please stop butchering your game.

 

 

I personally find this quote sady true:

All in all we ended with a FUN but poorly delivered and unevenly polished co-op/single player game and certainly a poor MMO.

 

 

 

That's a fantastic list, great job! +1

 

 

The interview is just an insult to the SW:TOR gaming community. Mr. James Ohlen seems to be apathetic - he doesn't get it.

[Kanharn]

Right, but his statement was that they learned lessons from other MMOs and then refined them. You're telling me that they didn't learn that people want dungeon finders, customizeable UIs, and the ability to select warzones? They clearly didn't learn the lessons, ignored the lessons, or don't have the resources to implement them.

 

Or you dont watch or read the update. We are getting all of this very soon.

[Cancrizans]

First let's start with a list of features you can have in others AAA MMO.

 

1. Day/night cycles
   
2. Swimming
   
3. Scripted & wandering NPCs
   
4. Critters
   
5. Few zones loading screens
   
6. Planetary housing
   
7. Housing furnishing
   
8. Tweakable UI
   
9. UI Addons
   
10. Macros
    
11. Combat log
    
12. Dual spec
    
13. Non humanoid based playable races
    
14. Animal based pet classes
    
15. Dedicated pet classes
    
16. Non pet classes
    
17. Resources for crafting that have quality
    
18. Guild leveling system
    
19. Guild "Tabard
    
20. Animal mounts
    
21. Flying mounts
    
22. Multiplayer mounts
    
23. No combat delay
    
24. Open world PvP
    
25. PvP Arenas
    
26. Choose which warfront to queue for
    
27. Collision detection between characters
    
28. Deep character body customization
    
29. Gear Dyes
    
30. Appearance tabs
    
31. Barber / Image Designer
    
32. Fishing
    
33. LFG tool
    
34. Guild bank
    
35. Shared storage between alts bank slots
    
36. High resolution textures
    
37. Smoothed out shadows
    
38. In game voice chat
    

 

There's certainly none MMO with all of the above entries but, contrary to TOR, none lacks them all.

 

 

 

Now here's a list of what would have been nice to have in TOR, to name a few:

• Minigames like Pazaak, Sabac or Holo-chess
  
• Multiplayer space content
  
  • 3d space combat
    
  • Choice of space ship chassis
    
  • Decoration mechanic for personal ships
    

  [*]Pod & Swoop racing

  [*]Player bounties

  [*]Companions in Warzones

  [*]Companion Deaths

  [*]Grey path abilities/rewards

We don't even have Pazaak at launch and BioWare owns the source code!

 

Let's talk about the more or less innovative features:

Dialogs have voice over, still the impact on choices is lacking. The Dark sided choices are too often about $$$ or at best killing people. The shared story parts gets old on the first alt due to the lack of impact of story choices.

 

Companions speaks still in single player mode they are so overpowered that one must be foolish to play without them. In multiplayer mode you have to dump a player to be able to play a pet class in a full group.

 

More troubling is:

The supposed epic feeling of playing a Jedi has been hindered with characters playing glowbats in the Huttball.

 

The core design of separating players in 2 opposed factions is about to be thrown to the rubbish with the same faction vs same faction PvP.

 

And they are going to keep wasting even more money on the

Space

shooter. Well even Leia

disagrees

 

==> Please stop butchering your game.

 

 

I personally find this quote sady true:

All in all we ended with a FUN but poorly delivered and unevenly polished co-op/single player game and certainly a poor MMO.

 

The first thing I am going to do when I get my stuff done tomorrow is comment on every item in your list, and show you what a noob you are for trifling with a great game.

 

Wait for it, I have things to do and serious sleep to get, but such a nonsense post deserves a response. Ugh most of your suggestions made me puke in my mouth a little, unfortunately I am so tired I can't fight the forces of just plain dumb with the required efficiency so I must tuck in to my down quilt and fuzzy blanket and try to find a movie where some sort of animal ends up devouring moronic humans so that I can get some sleep.

 

Such entertainments prod me to dream of a world where people are incapable of asserting intelligence without possessing it. Unfortunately I have to wake up and read the SWTOR general forums.

[AsheraII]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-01-12-bioware-swtor-post-mortem-its-more-innovative-than-an-fps

 

This interview is kind of astounding in how much the game director doesn't seem to "get it".

 

 

Okay, first of all... I'm not looking at other genres. I'm not looking at Battlefield or Call of Duty or Gears of War. Why would you even go there? Furthermore, saying you're more innovative than "Call of Duty: 2011 Update" isn't exactly setting a high standard. I've made rice krispy treats more innovative than the Call of Duty franchise.

 

Secondly... innovation is great, but not when it comes at the expense of the basics.

 

Yes, you've done some spectacular things for making an engaging leveling experience that appeals to a wide range of playstyles all while telling a very cinematic story.

 

But you don't have a combat log. You don't have a customizable UI. You don't have macros. You don't have add-on support.

Soooo you talk about innovation and list things that have been tried by other developers already? Yeah, right, innovative. I'm sure you call WoW's Achievements innovative too then? Or did you mean those things are "appealing to a wide range of playstyles"? I guess you missed all the debates here pre-launch, asking Bioware to please NOT implement easymode systems like macro's or addons?

 

Your animation/GCD priority is backwards.

You mean it's different to what you're used to from WoW. Well, go play WoW.

 

Your auction house is a mess.

It's not ideal, could be improved, but a mess? Nahhh.

 

Finding a group hasn't been this difficult since 2007.

With this post you prove you have some ability to write. Maybe you should try to do so in game as well. Maybe join a guild, make friends. Forming a group is as fast as using some LFD system, though I have to admit, groups don't fall apart half as quickly as they do in a game with LFD systems, like uhmmmm WoW. So I guess you just miss all the "your tank has left the group" messages on your first pull..

 

And you can't even keep your camera from auto-moving to your back.

Maybe with a little skill and use of brains you could?

 

 

Which "years and years and years" are you talking about because you seem to have missed most of the lessons on UI design.

It's functional, more so than the basic UI found in WoW.

 

When do we get this? Or are we operating on different definitions of "classic"?

As your favourite developer likes to say: "Soon". Only difference is: Bioware rarely backtracks on what they reveal, unlike a certain developer who told us on the forums that they were working player housing. That was 5 or 6 years ago.

 

That IS what you did. I sure as heck have never played an MMO without a combat log.

You haven't played MMO's for long, have you? And I bet you really invested more than 2 days in only one of them.

 

I just don't understand it. The bulk of the negative feedback I've seen both here and IRL has been that the game isn't enough like WoW, not that it's not different enough.

 

If you want to be recognized for "raising the bar," I suggest you first meet it.

If you want to play WoW, go play WoW. Don't join a Footbal team because you want to play hockey.

[DarthKhaos]

"Blah blah blah I hate innovation and wanna play tired 10 year old designs with no progress made."

AMAZING! I didn't think anyone could miss that guy's point THIS hard. He was saying number crunching isn't RPG. He's saying automation isn't RPG. You can be inovative without turning your RPG into min/max numbers.

 

And yet, GW2 will give us that and guess what? It will not even have a monthly fee!

You know after all your supposed disappointment with this and previous games I'm still surprised you're still buying into advertisement hype.

 

Right, but his statement was that they learned lessons from other MMOs and then refined them. You're telling me that they didn't learn that people want dungeon finders, customizeable UIs, and the ability to select warzones? They clearly didn't learn the lessons, ignored the lessons, or don't have the resources to implement them.

If you take the time to read the forums topics like LFG and mods have strong supports both for and against. I say it's 50/50 since there's no proper mass poll done to get a good sample of the player base. What I do know is people scream both ways... HARD.

 

]Non humanoid based playable races

Now there's a LOT about your post I want to comment on but gonna wait to see what Cancrizans is gonna put together first but I just HAD to ask you. Define non humanoid. Because last I checked I've never played a slug in an MMO.

Edited January 20, 2012 by DarthKhaos

[Rivianchief]

He doesn't compare FPS in general with this game. He just simple states that all genres have certain standards that haven't changed for the past years, which is true more or less.

But he doesn't mention that TOR, although being a game launched in 2011 doesn't even live up to named standards that other games certainly do.

 

No way to turn of smart pivot. Customizations lack to a great extend in the current UI. No option to change it yourself, by installing addons or other measures. There is no combat log. I know they will fix it, according to the most recent video, but you can't talk in an interview like you already did.

 

The questing itself is not innovative sorry. All they did was mixing up RPG aspects with the same old MMO questing. I mean it was entertaining, no doubt, but only the conversations (mostly the main story and the "planet" stories). After that it was just the same repetitive MMO line. And don't tell me that I shouldn't play it then, because I was just saying that this is not the term of "innovation". I haven't played SWG, so I considered the space battles to be innovative. Unfortunately they have literally NO connection to any story element.

 

I have read the interview partly, and he really does sound kind of arrogant. This game, by all means, does not deserve a 9/10. It simply doesn't because the endgame content is lacking great things and a decent story while experiencing the lvling is not worth 9 out of 10 points. I love how he tries to cover their mistakes up with the term "classic"... classic does not mean unappealing, even for a MMO genre.

 

Classic does not mean you only have to provide 3 WZ and a bugged PvP place (Illum). Classic does not mean you launch unfinished PVE content, that is bugged.

Classic does not mean to simply copy most of your Interface/abilities/etc from an already existing game

 

The user rating of Star Wars: The Old Republic on Metacritic is lower, however - but Ohlen was quick to explain why he thinks that is.

"Oh that's easy," he retorted. "Several of the designers were watching the Metacritic page when it finally came up and what happened was there is a community out there, and we don't know who they are - it could be a bunch of different people - who aren't really playing the game but have a vested interest in hating the game. And we saw literally hundreds of 0/10s come up within the first couple of hours of Metacritic coming on. So it was people who weren't even playing the game basically putting on that they hated it.

 

 

Its an audacity that apparently all this negative feedback is obviously from people that are haters, while never having touched the game. Haha, does he really believe that crap? Yea because BW is so hated among the Gaming community right? Wait no it isn't. Its pretty much appreciated and I dare say that all your 10/10 rates only exist because of games like Kotor 1, DAO, Baldur's gate etc*

[AsheraII]

Its an audacity that apparently all this negative feedback is obviously from people that are haters, while never having touched the game. Haha, does he really believe that crap? Yea because BW is so hated among the Gaming community right? Wait no it isn't. Its pretty much appreciated and I dare say that all your 10/10 rates only exist because of games like Kotor 1, DAO, Baldur's gate etc*

Not all SWG players came to TOR. There's quite a big amount of them that blames TOR for SWG's ending and refuse to play TOR because of that.

 

Same with WoW players. Quite a lot of them came here, but quite a lot of others stuck with WoW and got so annoyed by all the people saying "Bye bye WoW, I'm going to a game that's actually enjoyable" that they simply hated TOR before even seeing it. They saw their friends leave and their server turn empty. They hate TOR for being too interresting and too good, instead of hating WoW for slacking in content creation and quality.

 

The first "O M G, where's my endgame" whines came up on these forums just minutes after they re-opened, before anyone even got to lvl 50. Well, maybe a few did, but not enough on any server to form a group for even a hardmode. The Ilum dailies to keep them occupied untill more hit level cap were already in place, but noooo, they had to complain about there being no end-game, simply because they lacked the people to actually do it. It was all there, but ofcourse they couldn't spacebar themselves inside.

[Rigota]

Not all SWG players .............

 

couldn't spacebar themselves inside.

 

In swtor the themepark theme is explicitly present. Which don't fit with both Star Wars and MMORPG'S, in my opnion Star Wars fits an open MMO way better. Thats why many (SWG) players don't play TOR. WoW for example was a bit hybrid between a themepark and an open MMO but tended much more to themepark, but it didn't matter in that game your focus was drawn out of that. My thought of SWTOR is on page 25 of this threat were i responded on some1 with a list of issues, to be short it misses the good gameplay of WoW and the free world of SWG. If SWtor had that, it could be the best MMORPG ever made, but lacks both.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Rigota

[iRouven]

I have no clue what it entails to make an online game like this.

 

On the one hand I probably shouldn't either - I am just the consumer.

 

On the other hand I do have to ask myself - is it even possible, with all the features and bells and whistles, to bring a game online that has everything right from the start?

 

These projects takes years with, as far as I know more than two people involved. Then there is the money part. So unless you have the luxury of a sponsor with deep pockets ... you'll have to bring the game online at one point and delivery all the "extras" later.

 

So here I ask myself, would I rather stay in another universe and do the same old same old because it is familiar, convenient and it offers me all these tidbits that those games had years and years more to develop (while they were paid by the subscribers) - or do I enjoy a new ride, a bit rough around the edges perhaps and allow it to grow.

 

Ultimately I am certain that everything possible (not restricted by the engine etc) will be.

 

May the force guide you.

[Deewe]

If I may please allow me to steo in.

Soooo you talk about innovation and list things that have been tried by other developers already? Yeah, right, innovative. I'm sure you call WoW's Achievements innovative too then? Or did you mean those things are "appealing to a wide range of playstyles"? I guess you missed all the debates here pre-launch, asking Bioware to please NOT implement easymode systems like macro's or addons?

Macros and addons does not necessarily means easy mode.

 

As a UI author here's how I see them.

 

First can we agree on the UI is the medium by which any player interacts with a game 100% of the time?

 

Then whatever good (or bad) a game is, a bad (or very good) UI will totally change the experience of the player lowering (or improving) his/her game play. Thing is you can ruin a good game with a poor MMO.

For the record TOR has one of the worst AAA UI MMO wide, at least in terms of functionality. And I'm not speaking about the lack of combat log, but about basic features.

 

Finally every player has different needs. Yes

needs

not wishes in terms of playability. Now would TOR be a console game the UI, while flawed, might be acceptable. For a PC game and especially a MMO it's the game UI that has to be adapted, not the player.

 

Speaking about the Macros, while most players aren't looking for automated combat, things like: "/Mood: happy; /wave; /Say Hello %NT" are a must to have for let's say RPers.

 

BTW don't fool yourself, people "needing" automated macros for combat already know better than to rely/wait on in game macros and do them with external hardware or macro software.

 

About the addons you are certainly entitled to keep a narrow vision focused solely on things like healbot, still most of the time players just want a way arrange the UI fit their needs, from managing quickslots bars down to having squared minimap. I agree a sell grey items mod indeed an easymode addon, still I don't see the fun of clicking on each item individually.

 

Then you have the impaired players. Addons are a must to have for theses people. They are making the game playable.

For example in WoW before the colorblind mod it's was really hard for like 9% of the male players to recognize friendly from enemies, or to immediately know what rarity was an item. I know quite a few players that can't play MMO without a mouse look toggle and every each of them use 3rd party addons or in it's absence external software/hardware to do so.

Another example is people with far from perfect vision or an eye much weaker than the other. These needs addons to change the UI fonts and move around the UI frame so their weaker eye is less solicited.

 

So can we agree UI mods and addons aren't synonym of easy mode?

 

 

You mean it's different to what you're used to from WoW. Well, go play WoW.

Whatever the name of an MMO, when you send an action trigger to your character it should be executed with a fair response time. Others do it well, so players have the right to have expectations in that regard. And FYI BioWare already acknowledged they were looking into it. So seems to me even the developers care about the competitors.

 

Maybe with a little skill and use of brains you could?

I don't see how. At least from my knowledge you can't disable smart camera in this game. Please enlight us.

 

It's functional, more so than the basic UI found in WoW.

Allow me to disagree. Among others in Wow basic UI you can move, rescale the UI and have more than 2 UI frames open at the same time either. Sadly TOR is far from being even close to Wow vanilla UI. Even AoC UI is better than TOR's one.

 

As your favourite developer likes to say: "Soon". Only difference is: Bioware rarely backtracks on what they reveal, unlike a certain developer who told us on the forums that they were working player housing. That was 5 or 6 years ago.

The OP has a point, today's classic means more than combat + crafting + AH wrapped around time and money sinks.

 

It means a good UI, a world that feels alive, fluffy features, even now appearance tabs and gear dyes are becoming a standard. TOR lacks them all.

 

If you want to play WoW, go play WoW. Don't join a Footbal team because you want to play hockey.

Think you missed the point here. The idea is do at least what others have done (well) before venting yourselves about how you raised the bar.

 

And once again, sadly he's right. If you still don't see why, browse this thread for my post above.

 

It's fair to be a TOR fan, personally I don't find the game as bad a depicted by some but it certainly was rushed out of the door and suffers not only uneven polishing and bugs but some really poor design decisions.

 

Hopefully in the long term they're going to improve it and mitigate the errors of the past. But first we, players, have to open the eyes of the decision makers. BTW rest assured many BioWare designers would be more than happy to implement what the beta testers have been requesting for months if not years.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Deewe

[CharagonIGN]

Soooo you talk about innovation and list things that have been tried by other developers already?

Uhhh... no. I'm not talking about innovation. At no point have I mentioned innovation beyond complimenting BioWare on how nice they made the leveling experience.

 

At what point in any of my posts were you come to the conclusion that I'm talking about innovation? The entire purpose of this thread was to point out that BioWare needs to get their game up to basic MMO standards before they should worry about exceeding them.

 

 

 

Maybe with a little skill and use of brains you could?

Oh, this is rich. Please, tell me, I'm humbly begging to your superior intellect, which skill will I need to reprogram the game's camera so it doesn't automatically revolve to my backside.

 

I eagerly await your response.

 

 

It's functional, more so than the basic UI found in WoW.

Perhaps, but not MY UI in WoW.

 

 

 

You mean it's different to what you're used to from WoW. Well, go play WoW.

If you want to play WoW, go play WoW. Don't join a Footbal team because you want to play hockey.

 

I'M not the one who's making interviews saying "The expectations on what the game was going to be for a lot of people was kind of different to what we were building. We were building essentially a classic MMO with BioWare storytelling set in the Star Wars universe." and "But it is a genre, and we wanted to appeal to fans of that genre - we don't want to turn them away by making something that's radically different. And we wanted to take the lessons that have been developed in that genre over years and years and years and basically refine them, much like other companies do with other genres."

 

That last sentence is just a !@#$ing lie. This game in no way represents "years and years" of lessons that have been developed in the genre, unless those years were 1995 to 2000, which is when this game may have been acceptable.

Edited January 20, 2012 by CharagonIGN