Same gender relationships clarifications?

[Kaskava]

The only reason I wouldn't want Anders hitting on my male Hawke is because it's Anders. He was fun in the Awakening expansion but he just got on my nerves in DA2.

 

So, they screwed his character up? Sounds a lot like what I was saying could happen in the rest of my post.

[Cythereal]

So, they screwed his character up? Sounds a lot like what I was saying could happen in the rest of my post.

 

A character you don't like, or one that just does something you don't like, doesn't constitute a character "messed up" or "destroyed" by the developers.

[Nozybidaj]

So, they screwed his character up? Sounds a lot like what I was saying could happen in the rest of my post.

 

We need a better rolleyes smilie. Saying "it ruins the character" seems like the default argument now that those opposed to SGRA's have run out of other arguments. I don't find it any less silly than any of the other arguments however.

 

I wonder how many of these same people would be clamoring to make all the romance hero-sexual if BW had implemented all the characters as strictly same gender romances only and there were no OGRA's in the game? I would wager a vast majority of them....

[Zandilar]

BioWare did what you're suggesting in DA2, and it's one of the biggest complaints I've heard out of people. Mostly for two reasons; the first being that people did like Anders hitting on their male characters. The second being that Anders was clearly straight in DA: Awakening.

 

Yes they did. And yes there were complaints. However, this is partially an issue of perception. A person doesn't walk around with their sexuality stamped on their face. Sure, for some it might be obvious, but for others? Nuh uh. You'd never guess in a million years.

 

The only way you can be mostly certain of a person's sexuality, is if they tell you themselves. And even then, there is such a thing as denial. And confusion.

 

Also, Bioware made the mistake of having Anders make the initial move. It works far better if that is left up to the PC/player.

 

I have another issue with your thought process: Namely, you say that you think companion's sexuality should be based on the characters gender, so basically all the male characters on my ship would be gay (not counting Broonmark), Vette would be straight, and Jaeas would still be asexual.

 

Nope, I didn't. I think a companion's sexuality should be based on the PC's sexuality. Not gender. Not sex. Sexuality. If I implied otherwise, I'm not sure how that happened, but that wasn't what I meant... Also, I mean to imply that the only time a character would express their sexuality would be when in a relationship with the PC. For example, if your male PC didn't flirt or otherwise get involved with Corso, he wouldn't be gay. He'd be... well you wouldn't know. The flirt option would only open up the POSSIBILITY.

 

You then go on to say your companion's sexuality would be controlled by the player. Sorry, but if they're sexuality is set up so that they're all romanceable by the player, then the player has 0 control over their sexuality.

 

Ah, I think we're talking at cross purposes here. If your female Agent flirted with Kaliyo, Kaliyo would respond favourably, and you could assume she was bisexual or lesbian. If you didn't flirt with her, Kaliyo's sexuality would be unknown. You could assume what you wanted about it. From the way she acts, you could still assume she was bisexual, just not interested in Cipher Nine, or you could assume she was straight. Whatever you want, basically. That's what I mean by control.

 

Just because an NPC can be flirted with, and can respond favourably, doesn't make them bisexual (though, sometimes that's a good assumption. Yes, Isabela, I'm looking at you!).

 

Further you want this to be put into effect on companions that are already fleshed out, and in the game, which could ruin that characters personality for a lot of people. Are you really so rabid for SGRAs that you want them to be forced in? Or would you rather they take some time, and make a quality arc?

 

Why would the possibility that they might be interested in a same gender PC ruin the companion? Seriously, think of the [flirt] option as "what if this character was the right sexuality for me?" If you choose not to flirt with them, they're the same companion as they ever were. The flirt option isn't "this character is bisexual and receptive to flirting" it's "in a parallel universe where the only thing different is their sexuality, this character would respond favourably".

 

You aren't upset by the idea that Jaesa Willsaam can be light or dark sided, are you? People don't just change their morality because someone tells them to, it's unrealistic. In my opinion, it could really be a character ruiner, more so than just a simple change of sexuality. If you don't have a problem with that, you shouldn't have a problem with existing characters being able to be multiple sexualities in different people's games.

 

Also, you're completely discounting the fact that quite a few people in this thread see subtext/flirtations going on between their favourite and their PC (Kira and Kaliyo seem to be the two at the top of that list) already, without anything actually being in the game. On the same track, I don't have problems with slash fiction (having read a LOT of it over the years, and written not quite as much) - maybe that's why I'm a little more amenable to the idea of them opening up current companions to same gender romance?

 

Seriously, does anyone remember Kelly in ME2? I've never seen anything that fit the bill of "last-second" so perfectly.

 

I remember Kelly. I don't think she was a last second addition. I also don't think she was ever supposed to be equivalent on a romance level with Tali, Garrus, Miranda, Jacob, and Thane (or Liara, Kaiden, and Ashley).

 

Likewise, on the subject of Mass Effect, Kaiden and Ashley were both originally supposed to be bisexual, and that got far enough along in development that they actually did record voice work for both of them before the option was finally cut. If they are "suddenly" bisexual in 3, will you cry foul? Does that change your opinion on the idea of companion sexuality flexibility?

 

I can kind of relate to your desires, my male Inquisitor's romance option is Azshara. Az-freakin'-shara. The "Sith Apprentice" who still thinks she's a Jedi.

 

From what I've seen of her, I like her. I'd be happy to have my SI romance her... 'cept I can't.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Zandilar

[Kaskava]

We need a better rolleyes smilie. Saying "it ruins the character" seems like the default argument now that those opposed to SGRA's have run out of other arguments. I don't find it any less silly than any of the other arguments however.

 

I wonder how many of these same people would be clamoring to make all the romance hero-sexual if BW had implemented all the characters as strictly same gender romances only and there were no OGRA's in the game? I would wager a vast majority of them....

 

I disagree completely. Most of the people I know aren't bothered either way, and I'm willing to bet most people are the same way. If they were all SGRAs, and I really wanted to romance Vette, I'd have rolled a female SW. And you know what, it would not have bothered me at all. I'd recon that most of the people who would be bothered would be the people who don't learn something until level 30, when the rest of us new about it before the game even launched.

 

Now, if Vette had been designed from the ground-up as a lesbian, and they suddenly decided that she likes shafts now, too, I might get a little upset. Especially if they did a slap-dash job of it. And that's my biggest concern, that they'll screw over certain companions to try and shove in a feature that was never there to begin with.

 

Really, I'm surprised that there aren't more people concerned about this. But I suppose asking for quality might mean that something doesn't get released right away, which is too much for some people.

 

Oh, and by the way, if a character goes from fun in game (or patch) A, to really annoying in game (or patch) B, I'd call that ruining the character.

[Kioma]

So, they screwed his character up? Sounds a lot like what I was saying could happen in the rest of my post.

 

You've misunderstood, perhaps, my point. My issues with Anders didn't have anything to do with his sexuality. On the contrary for the people out there who dig Anders and want to see some Anders on boyHawke action, I'm happy the option is there for them. But it wouldn't happen in my game because Anders very nearly made me want to oppose every single viewpoint he took purely on the basis that he grated on my nerves like a road grates on a truck-load of watermelons tipping over at 100kph.

[Kaskava]

Yes they did. And yes there were complaints. However, this is partially an issue of perception. A person doesn't walk around with their sexuality stamped on their face. Sure, for some it might be obvious, but for others? Nuh uh. You'd never guess in a million years.

 

The only way you can be mostly certain of a person's sexuality, is if they tell you themselves. And even then, there is such a thing as denial. And confusion.

 

Also, Bioware made the mistake of having Anders make the initial move. It works far better if that is left up to the PC/player.

 

Some of the people I see on a daily basis make it physically impossible for another person not to know they're gay.

 

Nope, I didn't. I think a companion's sexuality should be based on the PC's sexuality. Not gender. Not sex. Sexuality. If I implied otherwise, I'm not sure how that happened, but that wasn't what I meant

 

Then it appears I misread your post, in which case, I apologize.

 

Likewise, on the subject of Mass Effect, Kaiden and Ashley were both originally supposed to be bisexual, and that got far enough along in development that they actually did record voice work for both of them before the option was finally cut. If they are "suddenly" bisexual in 3, will you cry foul? Does that change your opinion on the idea of companion sexuality flexibility?

 

I always saw Kaiden as being bisexual, but that's what I'm talking about. Quality, with fore thought put into the design. I do not see Pierce as being bisexual, it would be a big *** moment if he approached my Warrior and offered to polish the spear.

[Cythereal]

I disagree completely. Most of the people I know aren't bothered either way, and I'm willing to bet most people are the same way. If they were all SGRAs, and I really wanted to romance Vette, I'd have rolled a female SW. And you know what, it would not have bothered me at all. I'd recon that most of the people who would be bothered would be the people who don't learn something until level 30, when the rest of us new about it before the game even launched.

 

Now, if Vette had been designed from the ground-up as a lesbian, and they suddenly decided that she likes shafts now, too, I might get a little upset. Especially if they did a slap-dash job of it. And that's my biggest concern, that they'll screw over certain companions to try and shove in a feature that was never there to begin with.

 

Really, I'm surprised that there aren't more people concerned about this. But I suppose asking for quality might mean that something doesn't get released right away, which is too much for some people.

 

Oh, and by the way, if a character goes from fun in game (or patch) A, to really annoying in game (or patch) B, I'd call that ruining the character.

 

So female players getting the [Flirt] cue with Vette would ruin the character for you? Any dialogue involving her sexuality would thus be behind a very optional, very clearly marked door that you would never see unless you specifically clicked on that option.

 

Some of the people I see on a daily basis make it physically impossible for another person not to know they're gay.

 

Some people. There are some people I work with on a daily basis whom I wouldn't know were gay if it hadn't come up incidentally before. Most of the people I see every day? I have no clue about their sexual orientation because, surprise, most people aren't as loud and outspoken about it as the people you seem to be around are.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Cythereal

[Kaskava]

So female players getting the [Flirt] cue with Vette would ruin the character for you? Any dialogue involving her sexuality would thus be behind a very optional, very clearly marked door that you would never see unless you specifically clicked on that option.

 

No. However, if I made a female Warrior, and Vette decided to be the aggressor, it would feel a bit strange. Now, Dark Side Jaeasa approaching a female warrior would make sense. Maybe, I'm making some assumptions on her attitude since I haven't made a Dark Side Warrior.

[Kaskava]

Some people. There are some people I work with on a daily basis whom I wouldn't know were gay if it hadn't come up incidentally before. Most of the people I see every day? I have no clue about their sexual orientation because, surprise, most people aren't as loud and outspoken about it as the people you seem to be around are.

 

Rawr.

 

I was merely responding to a point that was made in the quoted post.

[Kioma]

Now, if Vette had been designed from the ground-up as a lesbian, and they suddenly decided that she likes shafts now, too, I might get a little upset. Especially if they did a slap-dash job of it. And that's my biggest concern, that they'll screw over certain companions to try and shove in a feature that was never there to begin with.

 

Your concern regarding jobs done too hastily is a valid one, I think. Particularly when it's very obvious that something is being put in after the fact, whether it was an intended change or an afterthought. I'm both pragmatic and hopeful, though. I hope that they'll do it justice; I know that we won't be able to tell how they do it until they actually do.

 

Regarding sudden affection of shafts, however... Human sexuality is fluid. It can change. It's not set in stone. Someone who thinks they're 100% straight can suddenly turn around and have a personal epiphany and swear off heterosexuality forever (though usually sexuality changes are less extreme than that).

 

Your theoretical Vette finding that she never had an interest in men and now is changing her mind, well, that's just life. For some people sexuality never wavers - for others it's refined by experience or contemplation, whether a little or a lot. Perhaps your theoretical Vette just never considered men a serious option for her.

 

Oh, and by the way, if a character goes from fun in game (or patch) A, to really annoying in game (or patch) B, I'd call that ruining the character.

 

I'd actually agree that for me they did ruin Anders's character. The important words in that sentence aren't 'they did ruin', though. The important words are 'for me'. It's a personal statement. Someone very close to me really loved Anders in DA2, and good on her. But for me... ehh.

[Cythereal]

No. However, if I made a female Warrior, and Vette decided to be the aggressor, it would feel a bit strange. Now, Dark Side Jaeasa approaching a female warrior would make sense. Maybe, I'm making some assumptions on her attitude since I haven't made a Dark Side Warrior.

 

But Vette isn't the aggressor. None of the companion romances are. The most you get are Jorgan getting annoyed with you flirt with an SIS agent, which you can accuse him of being jealous about but he might simply be telling the truth that he wants your head on the mission and not what's in the guy's pants, and Corso being very old-fashioned and lightly flirting - in which case, simply telling him you're gay would put a stop to that.

 

These companions aren't Anders. You, the player, have to specifically instigate the romance.

[StSathar]

Nope, I didn't. I think a companion's sexuality should be based on the PC's sexuality. Not gender. Not sex. Sexuality. If I implied otherwise, I'm not sure how that happened, but that wasn't what I meant... Also, I mean to imply that the only time a character would express their sexuality would be when in a relationship with the PC. For example, if your male PC didn't flirt or otherwise get involved with Corso, he wouldn't be gay. He'd be... well you wouldn't know. The flirt option would only open up the POSSIBILITY.

 

Well, let's ignore for a moment the giant Denial-fest that is current-day Corso and how he's about one Wyoming sunset away from jumping in bed with Heath Ledger. Some of the companions' third-party interactions can be a bit more complex than they first seem. Whenever you talk nice to a female NPC, Corso loves you. Be even a little icy and he starts pouting. Talk to a dude and he just zones out. Now, does hero-sexual Corso suddenly do a 180 and start hooting when you're flirty with the boys? Or does he now get jealous since he sees you as a love interest? Or is he complicated in that he likes to watch you saving the damsels in distress, as long as you still make time to get away and go fishing every now and then?

[Kioma]

But Vette isn't the aggressor. None of the companion romances are.

 

Doc is. He was quite happy to hit on my female JK. But you still have to flirt back for it to go anywhere.

[Kaskava]

But Vette isn't the aggressor. None of the companion romances are.

 

I haven't played all eight classes, so I couldn't say one way or the other. I can say that Kaliyo seems pretty open and aggressive about her intentions.

[Cythereal]

Doc is. He was quite happy to hit on my female JK. But you still have to flirt back for it to go anywhere.

 

Ah. Haven't made it that far. But here again is a case where a simple "I'm a lesbian" dialogue option could cut that off. Or not. Some people are simply flirtatious by nature even with people they know they don't have a chance with.

 

I haven't played all eight classes, so I couldn't say one way or the other. I can say that Kaliyo seems pretty open and aggressive about her intentions.

 

She's flirty to *everyone*. It's up to you whether to roll your eyes at her (hell, your Codex entry on her explicitly advises you to ignore her seduction attempts) or reciprocate.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Cythereal

[Kioma]

Ah. Haven't made it that far. But here again is a case where a simple "I'm a lesbian" dialogue option could cut that off. Or not. Some people are simply flirtatious by nature even with people they know they don't have a chance with.

 

Ha! With Doc I think he'd just grin and keep going. The man tried to talk his way around the Jedi Code; I had to let him down twice before he'd settle his ardour. Points for having the guts to try, I guess.

[Kaskava]

Your theoretical Vette finding that she never had an interest in men and now is changing her mind, well, that's just life. For some people sexuality never wavers - for others it's refined by experience or contemplation, whether a little or a lot. Perhaps your theoretical Vette just never considered men a serious option for her.

 

I would be okay with an "Oh my god! I'm really into <insert name here>, even though (s)he is the same gender as me!" However, I would think in certain instances, that would be best done in a new arc, that's triggered through certain dialogue options. Not just restricted to [Flirt], in place of the current arcs.

[Spotlore]

I'm not attracted to men, but if I were, I'd not be attracted to Khem Val. So being able to romance them all.. Might not be cool.

 

Lawl

[Sathla]

I support same gender relationships..

 

I'm a woman now rolling a warrior alt, and I have Quinn as my romance option.. QUINN! Seriously?!?!? Vette more of a man than him!..

[darkmorgado]

There are indded Same sex romance options in ME2. They're just F-F, no M-M.

 

As for trying again.. you do know ME2 is a single player game? You can save at almost any point you'd like and load that save and try somethign different.

 

I think we all know why there are only F-F options in the mass effect game.

 

Less to do with inclusivity and more to do with pandering the fantasies of teenage nerds.

[SkybladeDarkstar]

But Vette isn't the aggressor. None of the companion romances are. The most you get are Jorgan getting annoyed with you flirt with an SIS agent, which you can accuse him of being jealous about but he might simply be telling the truth that he wants your head on the mission and not what's in the guy's pants, and Corso being very old-fashioned and lightly flirting - in which case, simply telling him you're gay would put a stop to that.

 

These companions aren't Anders. You, the player, have to specifically instigate the romance.

 

This, completely. The problem with DA2's romances weren't the fact that they were all attracted to your character, the problem was with how aggressive and in-your-face they were about it, whether you wanted it or not. It's hard not to feel like Hawke is leading a harem when you have characters like Anders who flat-out propositions Hawke, and Isabela, who propositions everyone, on top of whoever you pick to be your actual romance, if you feel like going for the others.

 

The romance options are, in general, much better done in SWTOR. You get a couple of very, very vague leading lines, and you choose how to interperet and respond to them. The Lt. Iresso romance, for example, starts out fairly naturally (one of the few good things about that otherwise completely bland and boring character), with a comment about how you handle the ship. The "Flirt" option that extends from that is similarly extemely light and vague, and barely constitutes flirting, especially compared to most of the game's other Flirt options. But it opens up future flirt options in later dialogues, which otherwise, won't be there, and which allows the player to choose whether or not to believe that Iresso has any feelings for the Consular.

 

DA2 would have been much better taking this approach. The devs didn't want Hawke to be the only agressor in the relationships, which can make sense from a writing standpoint (although Hawke should have been more likely to be the one initiating it, since Hawke should have been the clear leader and most dominant personality). However, while Hawke didn't have to be the one initiating the romance, the players should have been. Especially since BioWare knows that about 75% of their players play male characters, so they would be throwing an outright gay companion right in players' faces (especially since it didn't match up with his DAO personality, which clearly had him as a skirt-chaser).

 

Anders, and that writing style, was the big weakness of DA2's romances (there's a reason why complaints about Anders dwarf those about Fenris by about 3000 to 1), not having all of them be availible to both genders. SWTOR has already solved that problem, and has a much better romance system, so they should go ahead and open it up.

 

Especially since some companions seem to lean towards a different approach anyway. Some are playful and flirty with both genders, and some seem genuinely attracted specifically to the player, regardless of gender.

Edited January 30, 2012 by SkybladeDarkstar

[StSathar]

I'm not attracted to men, but if I were, I'd not be attracted to Khem Val. So being able to romance them all.. Might not be cool.

 

 

Give him time. I wasn't a fan of the brute either at first. But now he gets me. You just have to be a little careful, though. Pull him out of his comfort zone, and the shields drops down and he just starts talking smack to push you away.

[kraidy]

In the end, it's Biowares fault for having certain characters flirt with the S/S. No one can argue this, they should implant this stuff into the game or you know what? Never pull this crap again. Talking to Watcher 2 or Ensign Temple was like having a steak being waved in my face and you could not eat it. It was painful and it hurt.

 

I don't want everyone bi, I want the people who are flirty with the S/S or feel bi to be bi and I still don't know why people are scared that a person of the S/S will flirt with them. Grow up.

[elexier]

Voting post (2nd post down on first page) updated with new poll.