Expertise...why?

[Orangerascal]

If BW wants to keep their crap stat, and I can't see they remove it anytime soon. They need to make Centurion Gear obtainable REALLY REALLY quick so fresh level 50s don't have to spend months being thrown into the meat-grinder just to be able to enjoy some PvP.

 

Months ??? if you spend 1 hour a day pvping and do your dailies and weeklies, you will get 25 bags per week. The expected value is 5 champ tokens and 2 centurion pieces. Most of my guild fully geared in 2 or 3 weeks.

 

 

Except Champion and Battlemaster gear you have only have to be lucky to get. It really requires zero effort to get unlike the PvE gear.

 

PVE gear is harder to get. The expected value of getting your piece is 4 completed runs.

 

The columni gear drops from the last boss in a heroic. It was easier to farm full champion then do the heroics, because the heroics were quite difficult in poor gear.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Orangerascal

[RycheMykola]

expertise should simply be removed, it serves no purpose. the advantage that people get from pvp-ing, namely faster gear, should be reward enough.

 

If expertise is removed, PVPers will be required to raid in order to get the best gear for PVP. Which isn't fair to people that only like to PVP and hate raiding.

 

What they should do, is introduce new enhancements for cybertech, artifice, and armstech that have expertise on them. That way, at least sub-50 toons can have a way to at least get some expertise on there gear.

[btsnider]

battlemaster gear can only be recieved if your atleast valor 60, so zero effort? Really? have u tried lvl-ing your valor to 60?

[freche]

Months ??? if you spend 1 hour a day pvping and do your dailies and weeklies, you will get 25 bags per week. The expected value is 5 champ tokens and 2 centurion pieces. Most of my guild fully geared in 2 or 3 weeks.

 

I have opened 22 bags, I have gained 1 champ token and 64 centurion commendations (1 armor piece).

 

 

battlemaster gear can only be recieved if your atleast valor 60, so zero effort? Really? have u tried lvl-ing your valor to 60?

Compared to the effort you have to put into PvE yes it's Zero.

Edited January 17, 2012 by freche

[Orangerascal]

I have opened 22 bags, I have gained 1 champ token and 64 centurion commendations (1 armor piece).

 

then you're unlucky ... better luck next week. For most people they will gear in 2-3 weeks.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Orangerascal

[PinkSugar]

I disagree. There should be a benefit from pvp gear in PVP.

 

Lets say in wow, if you like doing rated arena, and rated BG you can get the best pvp gear.

Why shouldnt they have a benefit from that?

Same thing here, even tho its easy to get the gear atm, but i hope there will get better gear from doing rated wz and stuff.

 

If you dont like expertise cause people get buffed versus another player, dont play pvp ?

 

I think you totally missed the point. Just saying....

[btsnider]

then you have some really bad luck. stay away from casinos. i get a champ token in about one of every four bags. 64 is not just one armor piece.

[PinkSugar]

If expertise is removed, PVPers will be required to raid in order to get the best gear for PVP. Which isn't fair to people that only like to PVP and hate raiding.

 

What they should do, is introduce new enhancements for cybertech, artifice, and armstech that have expertise on them. That way, at least sub-50 toons can have a way to at least get some expertise on there gear.

 

Expertise doesn't necessarily HAVE TO BE REMOVED, however, it needs to be reworked if it is to remain in this game. Expertise SHOULD NOT buff every stat. Simple, period....does anything more even need to be said?

[btsnider]

Compared to the effort you have to put into PvE yes it's Zero.

 

then you ovbiously havent really done any serious PvP

Edited January 17, 2012 by btsnider

[freche]

then you're unlucky ... better luck next week. For most people they will gear in 2-3 weeks.

 

Yes, I'm unlucky so why am I not allowed to be competitive against others that had luck, I'm not asking that I should have the same gear that those who spend lots of time have, I'm just expecting not to be free food in Warzones because I lack an totally imbalanced stat that I can't reliable obtain.

Edited January 17, 2012 by freche

[Orangerascal]

Expertise doesn't necessarily HAVE TO BE REMOVED, however, it needs to be reworked if it is to remain in this game. Expertise SHOULD NOT buff every stat. Simple, period....does anything more even need to be said?

 

Expertise does not buff every stat, it's is a normalization variable ... would it helped if I called it ... + x main stat .. + x endurance like the pve gear does where x is equivalent to the percentage increase ?

[btsnider]

Yes, I'm unlucky so why am I not allowed to be competitable against others that had luck, I'm not asking that I should have the same gear that those who spend lots of time have, I'm just expecting not to be free food in Warzones because I lack an totally imbalanced stat that I can't reliable obtain.

 

i think you mean competitive*

[Dee-Jay]

Here are the comparable gear from champion to BM

 

BM: http://www.torhead.com/item/ezMVcGr/battlemaster-force-mystics-robe

 

CH: http://www.torhead.com/item/tucpIZ/champion-force-mystics-robe

 

end: 86-> 92

wil: 87 -> 94

exp: 46 -> 50

 

the other stats are not comparable unfortunately.

 

As you can see that stat jump isn't that big from tier to tier, I would say about 7% for stats and about 9% for expertise. I'm not sure how you get 77% as this isn't additive. It's going to be 7% and 9% ish ... for the whole set. So about a 15% increase in performance (higher than 10 that you wanted). This isn't even too bad.

 

The real problem is because gear is ridiculously easy to get at 50. There is a big power jump from level 50 (lvl 40ish greens and blues) to champion level gear. At 50 most people don't have money for crafted, you skip centurion and go straight to champion. In essence this jumps through 3 tiers, hence the two (or three) week hell period where you fight people in much better gear.

 

This is what people are really complaining about, not the 'expertise' stat but the gear disparity.

 

I think you missed my point entirely.

 

No, stats aren't additive. They are multiplicative which is far more extreme.

 

That's what I've been trying to point out throughout all my posts.

 

Surge makes Crit more valuable, Crit makes Surge more valuable. Attackpower and Strength both further improve the output as well. More survivability on top of that allows you to dish out more damage for longer.

 

That's what I mean with a ~77% power increase.

 

 

Another example:

 

To increase a characters damage output by 1%, you can either:

 

Add 1% more Strength (assuming linear scaling)

Add 2% Crit-Chance (assuming 50% extra damage)

Add 5% Crit damage (assuming 20% Crit-chance)

Add 1% Attackpower (assuming linear scaling)

Add 1% Hit-Chance (assuming sub 100% Hit-chance)

Add 1% Expertise

 

You can only pick ONE of those options however. Changing more than one stat inevitably improves the others.

 

Improving ALL of these causes a massive power increase. Especially if you account for defensive stats as well, that allow you to deal more damage for a longer time.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Dee-Jay

[Orangerascal]

Yes, I'm unlucky so why am I not allowed to be competitable against others that had luck, I'm not asking that I should have the same gear that those who spend lots of time have, I'm just expecting not to be free food in Warzones because I lack an totally imbalanced stat that I can't reliable obtain.

 

How is it imbalanced again? Oh yeah because you can't get.

 

If don't raid and challenge someone in raid level gear with +400 willpower more and + 400 endurance more ... that must be imbalanced too.

 

You got unlucky one week get over it. You get 25 bags next week.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Orangerascal

[freche]

i think you mean competitive*

 

Indeed, thanks

 

 

How is it imbalanced again? Oh yeah because you can't get.[/Quote]

It's not imblanced because I can't get it, it's imbalanced because it gives such a wicked amount of boost and there is no way RELIABLE way to get it.

Eventually it will be impossible for new toons or new players to even participate in PvP in a fun way because all they will be looking at is their spawn area.

 

If don't raid and challenge someone in raid level gear with +400 willpower more and + 400 endurance more ... that must be imbalanced too.

 

What does raid have to do with the expertise stat? But since you bring it up, do you think they should add a PvE stat so people with PvP gear can't do PvE, since as it is now people with battlemaster gear can with ease participate in Raid content. (and btw with your expertise stat you would totally demolish any end game raider)

Edited January 17, 2012 by freche

[MBirkhofer]

expertise is a nonsensical stat.

 

Trauma debuff is the proper way to go, and should work for defense and offense in the same way.

 

 

And then have pvp basically the same as pve gear, except with heavier favor on pvp preferred stats, such as end vs power.

As well as pvp favored set bonuses.

 

And if we are getting really creative, create REAL gear variance. not just stat+1, vs stat+2.

How about helms that increase run speed? or armor that does a damage reflect, etc?

 

Frankly, as long as crit is a rng, and not something prompted by specific actions, this game, and any lazy mmo will never be competitive.

Edited January 17, 2012 by MBirkhofer

[Amp_]

I liked how LOTRO handled their PvP gear. It didn't give you a special PvP stat, but it did give you stats and set bonuses that were more helpful and designed towards PvP, rather than PvE.

[Erasimus]

Dividing the community between PvP and PvE is a bad thing because it reduces the amount of the game that any given player can participate in.

 

I don't agree. Most people I know (and have known in multiple MMOs) have different interests, some are almost exclusively PvP oriented others PvE raiding. It is a game, still, I believe that most people enjoy knowing that that the time they spend following a particular interest gives them some advantage (other than just skill) over people just starting to follow that particular path.

 

There are some, like me, that like to do both, and working for gear to do both doesn't bother me in the least. I look forward to it. I enjoy playing the game and PvP and PvE progression are just a part of playing the game.

 

There are many people that just want everything to be given to them without spending the time needed to farm/progress. My personal belief is that these people are most likely not really the type of person that will get the most enjoyment out of an MMO and would probably enjoy single person games, Skyrim for example, more.

 

For the truly hard core PvP'er I'm sure there will eventually be rated matches. World PvP, once it is fixed, should, hopefully, have as much to do with teamwork as with gear. But Dedicated PvP'ers should still have an edge as should dedicated PvE'er when raiding.

[Orangerascal]

What does raid have to do with the expertise stat? But since you bring it up, do you think they should add a PvE stat so people with PvP gear can't do PvE, since as it is now people with battlemaster gear can with ease participate in Raid content. (and btw with your expertise stat you would totally demolish any end game raider)

 

The fact that you mention this shows an fundamental misunderstanding of expertise. Expertise is synonymous to: +x stat, + y endurance.

 

I'll let you figure out why, or you can search my post history, as I've explained to numerous times. But mathematically, for pvp .... all the gear is considered equal.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Orangerascal

[btsnider]

 

What does raid have to do with the expertise stat? But since you bring it up, do you think they should add a PvE stat so people with PvP gear can't do PvE, since as it is now people with battlemaster gear can with ease participate in Raid content. (and btw with your expertise stat you would totally demolish any end game raider)

 

i knew this was gonna come up. If you have top PvE gear and are PvPing, there should be no way in hell that you get CRUSHED unless you are just really terrible skill wise at PvP

 

in which case... you need practice. thats all. and by the time you get decent youll probably have some decent pvp gear

Edited January 17, 2012 by btsnider

[freche]

The fact that you mention this shows an fundamental misunderstanding of expertise. Expertise is synonymous to: +x stat, + y endurance.

 

I'll let you figure out why, or you can search my post history, as I've explained to numerous times.

 

And with endurance you should mean armor, internal and elemental resistance.

So with expertise you will get a damage boost that equals his stat gain, but you still have the defensive boost against players that he don't have which means in the end you will do bigger numbers then he does, and due to stat scaling, expertise will most likely make you able to heal for at least as much as he can if not even more (due to 50% heal reduction, which wont affect you as badly as him, if you both can heal)

[Orangerascal]

Add 1% more Strength (assuming linear scaling)

Add 2% Crit-Chance (assuming 50% extra damage)

Add 5% Crit damage (assuming 20% Crit-chance)

Add 1% Attackpower (assuming linear scaling)

Add 1% Hit-Chance (assuming sub 100% Hit-chance)

Add 1% Expertise

 

I see where you're going with this. You assume that going from 100 str -> 110 str is a 10% increase in damage, but this is not the case.

 

Damage comes from 3 parts:

 

(Power + Str + surge) * expertise.

 

In fact your expected damage is more like:

 

exp * (((crit chance) * (base + str + ap) * (1.50 + surge)) + ((1 - crit chance) * (base + str + ap)))

 

 

People in battlemaster gear are not doing 77% more damage than people in champion gear, its more like 15% ish.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Orangerascal

[Orangerascal]

And with endurance you should mean armor, internal and elemental resistance.

So with expertise you will get a damage boost that equals his stat gain, but you still have the defensive boost against players that he don't have which means in the end you will do bigger numbers then he does, and due to stat scaling, expertise will most likely make you able to heal for at least as much as he can if not even more (due to 50% heal reduction, which wont affect you as badly as him, if you both can heal)

 

For the record the healing debuff is 30%.

 

Here is the proof the pvp = pve.

 

PVP

exp * (((crit chance) * (base + str + ap) * (1.50 + surge)) + ((1 - crit chance) * (base + str + ap)))

 

PVE

((crit chance) * (base + str2 + ap) * (1.50 + surge)) + ((1 - crit chance) * (base + str2 + ap))

 

Let's assume pvp = pve and using simple algebra we get

exp * str = str2

 

so if the exp * str coefficient = str2 then pve gear is as good as pvp gear. Im guessing it is and I'll let the min maxers figure this one out. I have no intention of data mining the game, I will assume bioware has some competent mathmaticians.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Orangerascal

[PinkSugar]

Expertise does not buff every stat, it's is a normalization variable ... would it helped if I called it ... + x main stat .. + x endurance like the pve gear does where x is equivalent to the percentage increase ?

 

So does this expertise not improve healing also? Does it not effect the heals that Sorcs cast off on themselves in order to stay alive long enough to Zap crit someone to death?

[Orangerascal]

So does this expertise not improve healing also? Does it not effect the heals that Sorcs cast off on themselves in order to stay alive long enough to Zap crit someone to death?

 

yes so does the + 200 you get from willpower pve gear. Healing is analogous to damage.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Orangerascal