Expertise...why?

[SandTrout]

And I answered it by saying it reduces the delta's between tier levels or did you miss my first post where I provided 3 tier examples.

 

expertise is a flat out canceller. It cancels existing stats .... so if both parties had 1000 expertise they would cancel out and all you need to do is balance the remaining other starts.

 

Whats' easier to balance a delta of 1000 or a delta of 100 ?

 

That's not class balance.

[SandTrout]

Expertise is merely a way to separate pvp from pve content. It stops players from trivializing one set of content by doing the other.

 

I know I saw someone say this earlier but pve gear is NOT as good as pvp gear in pvp. Whatever paltry stat gains you get doesn't even come close to the 15% dmg increase/decease/healing done boost you get. Not to mention the unique set bonuses.

Exactly, is separates the content, and by default, separates the community.

[Orangerascal]

That's not class balance.

 

Why not? Class balance is about tweaking the coefficients to produce the desired effect.

 

Here's the counterproof: If I increase the coefficient of my main attack to 10x it's damage. That would cause a class inbalance.

 

good one liner btw, which added nothing to the thread

 

Exactly, is separates the content, and by default, separates the community.

 

This would only be true if the two contents were mutually exclusive which they are not. You can pve and pvp. My guild does heroics in champion gear *shocker*

Edited January 17, 2012 by Orangerascal

[SandTrout]

Why not? Class balance is about tweaking the coefficients to produce the desired effect.

 

Here's the counterproof: If I increase the coefficient of my main attack to 10x it's damage. That would cause a class inbalance.

 

good one liner btw, which added nothing to the thread

 

How does that have anything to with Sages/Sorcerers and Scoundrels/Operatives being balanced relative to the other classes?

 

Expertise is equally available to all classes, therefor is not a difference in the classes that can be used to balance them.

[choppefett]

Lets say we removed expertise. Now you can earn similar gear from both gear paths. Now assume both gear paths are balanced and if you choose to only pvp you will earn gear at a similar rate as if you only pve. I'm sure this could be done. Something like, balancing operation lockouts with battlemaster bags for example.

 

Also, lets ignore arguments like "it's more difficult to organise 8 people so pvpers shouldn't get the same rewards" etc etc. Those kind of argument are pedantics imo.

 

The real problem is how do you balance each gear path around those players who do both? If I can obtain high end gear from an operation (weekly), then some more of the same high end gear from PVP (weekly again assuming they're "balanced") then I'll definitely do both.

 

Is it unfair that I have geared faster because I participated in both forms of the game?

Is it bad that I was "forced" to do both to be competitive in either forms of the game?

Is there a solution to handle this?

 

The only solution I can think of, is if bosses didn't drop loot but only tokens and those same tokens were given as pvp rewards with a limit of tokens per day/week etc, then both pvpers and pvers bought the same gear. Now I could pvp solely and gear up or I could pve solely and gear up, or I could combine the 2 and gear up, all at the same rate.

[Orangerascal]

How does that have anything to with Sages/Sorcerers and Scoundrels/Operatives being balanced relative to the other classes?

 

Expertise is equally available to all classes, therefor is not a difference in the classes that can be used to balance them.

 

Interesting you mention scoundrels, because it's not even expertise that's what causes their spike damage but the 'power creep' caused by high surge. By having expertise in place it would make it easier to pin point that the other stats aren't being affected by the same 'power creep'. This is a case of how expertise can help.

 

Expertise just acts as a normalization metric. It's why we have units like AU (astronomical units) or even the meter ... it just makes things easier.

 

Actually I don't know why I'm arguing with you, if you didn't get it the first 3 times you probably won't get the next 10. I'm sure your idea of balance is 'sprint is OP nerf it'.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Orangerascal

[Beergoogles]

Max expertise is what 10-12% more dmg? Is that really a game breaker?

[insanelf]

Expertise is there to make PvP gear NOT vialble in PvE due to having lower base stats and expertise instead.

 

Expertise just balances it our against someone who uses purely pve gear in PvP.

[Avatorius]

exactly.....fix guardians mitigation and give us a self heal. we already do the least amount of damage compared to powertechs and tank specced sins.

 

^ this, lots of this.

 

 

I'm cool with having low dps as a tank class. But as a heavy armor wearer, and level 47, I get kind of insulted to be 3 shot by someone popping out of stealth when I'm in tank-stance (40something% damage reduc?). Ok so they most likely had PvP damage, that's fine and danddy, but being a tank class I shouldn't feel like I'm wearing cloth <.<

[Dee-Jay]

Nice one liner ... care to elaborate?

 

Here's a simple example of how expertise helps with balancing by keeping the Delta's of your main stat and endurance low and preventing 'power creep' seen in so many games:

 

lvl 50 t1 vs lvl 50 t1 --- both 10% expertise.

Expertise just cancels each other out leaving just the stats for balancing.

Ability A deals 10% of target's health as planned by design.

 

lvl 50 t2 vs lvl 50 t2 --- both 20% expertise, both get +40 endurance and + 40 main stat.

Expertise just cancels each other out leaving just the stats for balancing.

Ability A now deals 15% of target's health. They now that the ability scales badly relative to armor, endurance and main stat and can adjust accordingly. Base damage is increased but coefficient damage is scaled back. Ability A now deals 10% as planned.

 

lvl 50 t3 vs lvl 50 t3 --- both 30% expertise, both get +80 endurance and + 80 main stat.

Expertise just cancels each other out leaving just the stats for balancing.

Ability A deals 10% after balance according to design principle.

 

 

 

True, when everyone's at the same gear level, it works just fine.

 

The problem arises when you have gear disparity, which is always the case in Warzones.

 

 

When comparing T1 to T3, not only does he deal 20% more damage, he also receives 20% less.

 

Assuming both have 10.000 HP and deal 1000 DPS, Tier 1 player will deal 800 DPS Vs T3 while receiving 1200 DPS.

 

He will therefor live roughly 8.3 seconds, allowing him to deal about 6500 damage to Tier 3 before dying.

 

And that's ignoring general stat bonuses which swing further in favor of Tier 3, making a Tier 3 player close to twice as powerful as a respective Tier 1 player.

 

That is a massive gear scaling issue and it's far too extreme to be allowed to continue.

 

At best, stats should increase by no more than 10% between each Tier. Since all stats scale off each other, this still amounts to quite a substantial power-increase.

 

 

Survivability and output scale exponentially with each other, just like Crit-Chance and Crit damage boost each other. Stats scaling off each other like that is a broken mechanic and exactly why diminishing returns were introduced to WoW.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Dee-Jay

[hieroo]

DPS specs that have a healing button and some expertise can heal through way too much. I cant count the amount of games that have sorcerers at the top of damage AND healing. Because expertise buffs everything it makes non specced heals pretty damn viable.

 

But the real issue is this: why was expertise put in the game in the first place?

 

Resilience in WoW was a bandaid to fix bad design in BC. Why would you intentionally foul up your game by putting a stat like this in it?

 

 

 

I dont know if u have noticed this or not, or if this is your first MMORPG or not. But Healers in pvp normally always win if they are played right its just the fact that they CAN heal So do not QQ about expertise when it their was no expertise they would still be able to heal themselves. Without expertise why would u even pvp?

[SandTrout]

Without expertise why would u even pvp?

To play against another player, and have fun doing so.

[Razot]

I dont know if u have noticed this or not, or if this is your first MMORPG or not. But Healers in pvp normally always win if they are played right its just the fact that they CAN heal So do not QQ about expertise when it their was no expertise they would still be able to heal themselves. Without expertise why would u even pvp?

 

Hopeless!

[Orangerascal]

At best, stats should increase by no more than 10% between each Tier. Since all stats scale off each other, this still amounts to quite a substantial power-increase.

 

Full champion expertise gives about 10% damage and hp reduction

Full battlemaster expertise gives about 15% damage and hp reduction.

 

The problem people are seeing is the 2 week hell period from dinging 50 to full champion. And the casuals who are still stuck at level 30.

 

Splitting wf's and rating them should help with these problems.

 

I have an alt and I don't think it's that much of the a problem personally. Nothing compared to the hell that was wow and taking a toon from 0 resilence to max. Or rift going from r1 to r8 .. or even warhammer.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Orangerascal

[RycheMykola]

lvl 50 500 expertise vs lvl 50 500 expertise equal eachother

 

If there was no expertise, the "hardcore pvpers" would start crying that the raiders own everyone in PVP.

 

The only thing bad about expertise is that it is only available at 50, and 50's get grouped into Warzones with people under level 50.

[Orangerascal]

The only thing bad about expertise is that it is only available at 50, and 50's get grouped into Warzones with people under level 50.

 

Bingo, the real problem is the gear disparity and more importantly the matching system.

[Avatorius]

The problem people are seeing is the 2 week hell period from dinging 50 to full champion. And the casuals who are still stuck at level 30. ....

 

 

 

M'yeah, not everyone wants to "go through hell" and actually pay money for it. Which is perfectly understandable. A game should be enjoyable. Having a period of "not fun" isn't exactly appealing for most people ---

 

But comming from a Korean game, man, 2 weeks for end-game pvp gear is hell-fast... even 2 months would be fast.

 

Still, it doesn't excuse foul mechanics like no-bracket warzones---- or game breaking stats that unbalance classes more.

 

 

Oh and I find tank pvp gear to be really.. really ugly. D: wtb reskin.

[Dee-Jay]

Full champion expertise gives about 10% damage and hp reduction

Full battlemaster expertise gives about 15% damage and hp reduction.

 

The problem people are seeing is the 2 week hell period from dinging 50 to full champion. And the casuals who are still stuck at level 30.

 

Splitting wf's and rating them should help with these problems.

 

I have an alt and I don't think it's that much of the a problem personally. Nothing compared to the hell that was wow and taking a toon from 0 resilence to max. Or rift going from r1 to r8 .. or even warhammer.

 

 

This may be so, but the problem still exists.

 

Say you have a character, and you want to make him/her 10% more powerful (say, by acquiring a new set of gear). You achieve this relative power increase by increasing A SINGLE stat by 10%.

 

To make a person with 1000 Strength and 1000 Endurance, 10% more powerful, you may only increase a single stat. If you increase both stats by 10%, ergo to 1100 Strength and 1100 Endurance, you're effectively making him 21% more powerful.

 

Now apply this logic to the ~6 Stats relevant to every class in PvP (Crit, Surge, Expertise, Endurance, Main stat, Attackpower) and you're amplifying this effect.

 

A 10% increase in each respective stat nets you with a ~77% increase in power.

 

That's a hell-of a big difference between players, so early into the life-time of a game.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Dee-Jay

[vindianajones]

Expertise and other PvP stats exist because:

 

1) PvP'ers want competetive gear without raiding/PvE content.

2) PvE'ers think they "put more effort in" and thus should have better base stats on their gear (and almost always do).

3) PvP'ers will cry if the PvE powerhouses can walk into warzones and own them with their superior statted gear.

 

Therefore expertise balances out the playing field, allowing PvE'ers to have their "better" gear while keeping PvP exclusive players competetive on their home field.

 

Now, why in the world there is bonus to healing on expertise - giving the 6 healing AC's an automatic advantage over the other 10 AC's who cannot heal at all - is beyond me. That function should be removed or only apply to heals to/from other players and not for yourself.

 

The ideal fixes to expertise would be to A) Add a decent amount to gear pre-50 and B) Make the healing portion not apply to self-heals.

Edited January 17, 2012 by vindianajones

[Orangerascal]

This may be so, but the problem still exists.

 

Say you have a character, and you want to make him/her 10% more powerful (say, by acquiring a new set of gear). You achieve this relative power increase by increasing A SINGLE stat by 10%.

 

To make a person with 1000 Strength and 1000 Endurance, 10% more powerful, you may only increase a single stat. If you increase both stats by 10%, ergo to 1100 Strength and 1100 Endurance, you're effectively making him 21% more powerful.

 

Now apply this logic to the ~6 Stats relevant to every class in PvP (Crit, Surge, Expertise, Endurance, Main stat, Attackpower) and you're amplifying this effect.

 

A 10% increase in each respective stat nets you with a ~77% increase in power.

 

Here are the comparable gear from champion to BM

 

BM: http://www.torhead.com/item/ezMVcGr/battlemaster-force-mystics-robe

 

CH: http://www.torhead.com/item/tucpIZ/champion-force-mystics-robe

 

end: 86-> 92

wil: 87 -> 94

exp: 46 -> 50

 

the other stats are not comparable unfortunately.

 

As you can see that stat jump isn't that big from tier to tier, I would say about 7% for stats and about 9% for expertise. I'm not sure how you get 77% as this isn't additive. It's going to be 7% and 9% ish ... for the whole set. So about a 15% increase in performance (higher than 10 that you wanted). This isn't even too bad.

 

The real problem is because gear is ridiculously easy to get at 50. There is a big power jump from level 50 (lvl 40ish greens and blues) to champion level gear. At 50 most people don't have money for crafted, you skip centurion and go straight to champion. In essence this jumps through 3 tiers, hence the two (or three) week hell period where you fight people in much better gear.

 

This is what people are really complaining about, not the 'expertise' stat but the gear disparity.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Orangerascal

[Malstrades]

expertise should simply be removed, it serves no purpose. the advantage that people get from pvp-ing, namely faster gear, should be reward enough.

[btsnider]

i dont see what the big deal is. If you PvP - get PvP gear. If you PvE - stick to PvE, and PvE gear. Why the hell would you spend all your time PvE and then expect to just walk into PvP doing amazing? i agree the healing in PvP gear is way OP. but wanting PvE gear to compete with PvP gear is a horrible idea. people spend hours, days, and weeks to get their gear in PvP. (granted ilum is broken right now, but i think theyre fixing that soon). And its the same for people in PvE. So why should you be able to just walk in from PvE and not have to do the same for PvP? they are two completely different sides to the game so why shouldnt they require two different grinds for top gear? Sounds like laziness/greed to me.

[btsnider]

and before someone says " well pvp players can do PvE with pvp gear and do fine". the same can be said for top PvE gear in PvP. You are not going to do HORRIBLE. you will still get good kills with your PvE sets, if you dont... well then im sorry but maybe you just need a little something called... PRACTICE.

[Orangerascal]

the same can be said for top PvE gear in PvP. You are not going to do HORRIBLE. you will still get good kills with your PvE sets, if you dont... well then im sorry but maybe you just need a little something called... PRACTICE.

 

PVE gear is equivalent to pvp gear because they have more endurance and more main (stats).

 

Columni = champion

rakata = battlemaster

 

Compare any two equivalent pieces and you'll see.

[freche]

Expertise is the most useless, worthless piece of crap stat ever invented. All it does is make things imbalanced, just when you hit 50 you have 0 expertise meaning you will get oneshotted and owned by everyone that have managed to get their gear by LUCK.

There is currently no skill at all to get PVP gear.

 

If BW wants to keep their crap stat, and I can't see they remove it anytime soon. They need to make Centurion Gear obtainable REALLY REALLY quick so fresh level 50s don't have to spend months being thrown into the meat-grinder just to be able to enjoy some PvP.

 

 

PVE gear is equivalent to pvp gear because they have more endurance and more main (stats).

 

Columni = champion

rakata = battlemaster

 

Compare any two equivalent pieces and you'll see.

Except Champion and Battlemaster gear you have only have to be lucky to get. It really requires zero effort to get unlike the PvE gear.

Edited January 17, 2012 by freche