Optimizing Powertech Pyrotech PvE builds

[Woyto]

I have been a lvl 50 Shieldtech for 2 weeks and I have switched to Pyrotech yesterday. I must say the dmg surprised me (pleasantly).

I have been trying to optimize my dmg for PvE, I was hoping a more experienced Pyrotech might point me in the right direction.

 

Build A:

Pretty standard pyrotech PvE build:

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301hzZMsZfhrbzGhrs.1

 

Build B:

A more hybrid approach with the goal to get the 9% aim bonus:

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301hMhZMsZfhrbzGhMM.1

 

Build C:

A wholesome build, but at the cost of not getting the +60% armor. pen. for Rail Shot:

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301hMhZMZfhrbzGhrs.1

 

Now, I used Build A yesterday with my hybrid Sorc (Madness/Lightning) friend on False Emperor yesterday. We killed the last boss so fast that we didn't even need to throw him off the bridge (until then I didn't even know it was possible). We killed the Two Robot mini-bosses who shield themselves without the second one even activating the his shield. Overheating was not a big issue and the dmg was very nice.

 

What I hoped to achieve with Build B was increase single target dmg as much as possible. At the cost of loosing Thermal Detonator, and Automated Defenses (most importantly loosing the CD reduction on Thermal Sensor Override). I am really not sure about this build but it seems OK on paper for max. single target dmg.

 

With Build C I get the nice +9% Aim and I don't loose the enhanced AoE dmg from Thermal Detonator. Plus I keep the nice heat management with Automated Defenses, but at the cost of loosing 60% armor. pen. for Rail Shot and the +3% tech. crit. from Prototype Cylinders. The thing I wonder most about with this build is how big the dmg loss for Rail Shot is on HMs without the strong armor. pen..

 

Sorry for the wall of text, but playing Pyrotech has been such a blast that I wanted to explain my reasoning before asking an experienced Pyrotech for help.

 

Looking forward to Your input.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Woyto

[MorningMusume]

Hmmm, Pyro is pretty easy to add to my tanking spreadsheet, just 3-4 talents more and a new cylinder. Thermal Detonator doesn't seem to cut it for single target purposes anyway.

 

I'll think to add it when I have time. Anyway I wanted to add the other cylinders for no-tanking scenarios.

[Eroex]

Yea all 3 of your builds are bad, Build B is the closest to being good but you have Prototype cylinders, its really not that great.

 

Just move that point back to burnout and you will have a solid build.

 

 

With Build C I get the nice +9% Aim and I don't loose the enhanced AoE dmg from Thermal Detonator.

 

Uh, what? Thermal detonator is single target.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Eroex

[Woyto]

@MorningMusume I would really like to see a spreadsheet for that

 

@Eroex Thanks for your input! I am quite new to Pyro. I thought Thermal Detonator worked like Explosive Dart. If it is a single target skill I really don't feel like investing a point into it. Regarding the Prototype Cylinders, is it worth loosing 3% critical with tech for 1% critical with tech and +10% periodic elemental dmg on targets under 30% HP? It seems counterintuitive to me but I might be wrong.

 

Keep the input commin'

[Dharagada]

Yea all 3 of your builds are bad, Build B is the closest to being good but you have Prototype cylinders, its really not that great.

 

I'm curious as to where you would put the point for Prototype cylinders, just fill out Intimidation instead?

Edited January 17, 2012 by Dharagada

[badalchemist]

I use build C. The 9% Aim just gets better and better as my gear improves. I know I'm missing out on the additional armor penetration of Rail Shot, but I think the overall DPS is better.

 

How much do you guys figure armor is mitigating Rail Shot damage? 40%? So is an additional 60% off that 40% for an ability I get on average every 3rd or 4th GCD better than an extra ~120 Aim?

[Eroex]

I'm curious as to where you would put the point for Prototype cylinders, just fill out Intimidation instead?

 

I said where to put it in the post but here's a visual

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301hMhZMcZfhrbzGhMc.1

[Woyto]

@badalchemist, thats what I am not sure about aswell, I will try to do some test once I get home

[Eroex]

@MorningMusume I would really like to see a spreadsheet for that

 

@Eroex Thanks for your input! I am quite new to Pyro. I thought Thermal Detonator worked like Explosive Dart. If it is a single target skill I really don't feel like investing a point into it. Regarding the Prototype Cylinders, is it worth loosing 3% critical with tech for 1% critical with tech and +10% periodic elemental dmg on targets under 30% HP? It seems counterintuitive to me but I might be wrong.

 

Keep the input commin'

 

 

For larger mobs such as in raids, heroics, and ops the 10% increase under 30% is better, for weak mobs i guess it really doesn't matter.

[theangryllama]

Hmmm, Pyro is pretty easy to add to my tanking spreadsheet, just 3-4 talents more and a new cylinder. Thermal Detonator doesn't seem to cut it for single target purposes anyway.

 

I'll think to add it when I have time. Anyway I wanted to add the other cylinders for no-tanking scenarios.

 

In a pure tank n spank situation it doesnt. But the amount of times your forced to move, or the boss runs out of range or even simply as your running into range... TD FTW!

Its one of those situational talents that is unfortunately impossible to determine via spreadsheets and maths as in those situations it would clearly be inferior to grabbing the 9% aim (especially as your gear get higher)

[Eroex]

In a pure tank n spank situation it doesnt. But the amount of times your forced to move, or the boss runs out of range or even simply as your running into range... TD FTW!

Its one of those situational talents that is unfortunately impossible to determine via spreadsheets and maths as in those situations it would clearly be inferior to grabbing the 9% aim (especially as your gear get higher)

 

I cant think of a PVE boss fight where TD would be worth using. I mean maybe 1-2 tosses a fight could be worked in but over the whole fight 9% aim blows TD out of the water.

[badalchemist]

I cant think of a PVE boss fight where TD would be worth using. I mean maybe 1-2 tosses a fight could be worked in but over the whole fight 9% aim blows TD out of the water.

 

It's something to use while closing the distance for Rocket Punch/Flame Burst

[Dharagada]

While I like TD in PVP, I can certainly understand the argument for dropping it for pure PVE in order to pick up 9% Aim as that's going to increase the damage of every attack you use including flame burst and rail shot which are pretty much your bread and butter (along with weaving in rapid shots and rocket punch).

 

You just don't really use TD as part of the normal rotation.

[MorningMusume]

It's something to use while closing the distance for Rocket Punch/Flame Burst

 

Probably there isn't much bosses where you use that. Anyway you can use IM or Rapid Shots when closing distance. And Rapid Shots is a better option if you have heat to dissipate anyway. Is pretty situational, while +9% AIM is constant DPS all the fight.

 

I'm sure there are some fights that TD can be a dps increase, but I can't see it as a constant.

Edited January 17, 2012 by MorningMusume

[Teacosy]

The spec Ereox has linked is undoubtedly the best PvE spec for Pyro, ive been playign pyro since beta and throughout live. I struggle to find any value on bosses where my TD is massively worth it.

 

To even make it worth its while it would have to be used on cd, but thats not always possible due to heat. Whereas that 16 heat could go towards a flame burst which will deal roughly 60-75% ofthe damage. but will also have the chance to proc rail. Also delayed damage isnt valued very highly in burst situations on boss fights.

 

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301hMbZ0cZfhMbdGhrs.1

 

This spec however is solid for both doing PvP and PvE u miss out a few things for pve while keeping them for pvp. Its done me well yet i hate the fact i know im losing dps with it.

[badalchemist]

Probably there isn't much bosses where you use that. Anyway you can use IM or Rapid Shots when closing distance. And Rapid Shots is a better option if you have heat to dissipate anyway. Is pretty situational, while +9% AIM is constant DPS all the fight.

 

I'm sure there are some fights that TD can be a dps increase, but I can't see it as a constant.

 

Used it last night quite a bit in SOA phases 2 and 3

[Eroex]

Used it last night quite a bit in SOA phases 2 and 3

 

Great, but you still gimped your DPS overall. TD still isn't worth it. On the Phase 3 transitions you may get 1 TD blast, then the second one would be immune when his shield goes back up due to the delay, I haven't checked the timers though. I still cant see it being worth specing into.

 

If you want to do less DPS and feel better about yourself by using it, I'm not going to freak out.

[Smokt]

For posting this info. I play my Pyrotech sparingly so this is helpful.

 

I would be interested to know if anyone has done a comparison between Pyrotech and Mercenary DPS? I'd like to be able to say we are JUST AS GOOD, but I am not yet comfortable with that as a fact. Certainly not having concussive missle is a huge utility loss in a lot of circumstances at a minimum.

 

Anyhing else where we get shortchanged/come out ahead?

[badalchemist]

Great, but you still gimped your DPS overall. TD still isn't worth it. On the Phase 3 transitions you may get 1 TD blast, then the second one would be immune when his shield goes back up due to the delay, I haven't checked the timers though. I still cant see it being worth specing into.

 

If you want to do less DPS and feel better about yourself by using it, I'm not going to freak out.

 

Feel better about myself? No need to get snippy. I'll give your spec a chance.

[darkrom]

Thermal detonator would be effective pve utility if it dropped heat upon setting off or provided other utility.

[xeldumont]

The only real analysis/simulations I've seen on this actually points to TD builds outperforming any other variant w/o TD. My guess as to why is simply that TD hits hard enough, that w/o it you can't make up the difference even with extra aim.

 

 

Assuming you don't take TD, you'll be using FB in it's place. Right off the bat, TD definitely hits for more, significantly more on crit, so that's the delta you need to make up elsewhere. Yes you can end up getting more free RS with the extra FB, but it's a 30% chance and you are only getting 1 more FB every 15 seconds, so it's not like you'll be getting a massive # of extra PPA procs.

 

 

A somewhat quick easy test (even moreso if biochem), go take some #'s on your abilities, then take a reflex stim for the aim boost. The 128 on the biochem stim is right about 9% of 1400, which is probably a fair #, give or take a bit. After taking the stim, recheck #'s and see if the increase would add up to the difference between what FB and TD hit for. (This is really a pretty huge oversimplification I admit)

 

 

I'd also add, we're not playing WoW here, no one is doing 30,000 DPS. We're seemingly in the mid 1K range. At those levels, I think fight mechanics, RNG, player skill, lag, *bugs*, whatever, matter as much as where your last 4 points go, if not more. If you get lucky in a fight with lots of PPA procs, you'll be doing very well (until you pull aggro and die ), if you use all your luck up that fight, and can't buy a PPA to save your life on next boss, you could be doing 100's of DPS less.

Edited January 18, 2012 by xeldumont

[Eroex]

The only real analysis/simulations I've seen on this actually points to TD builds outperforming any other variant w/o TD. My guess as to why is simply that TD hits hard enough, that w/o it you can't make up the difference even with extra aim.

 

 

Assuming you don't take TD, you'll be using FB in it's place. Right off the bat, TD definitely hits for more, significantly more on crit, so that's the delta you need to make up elsewhere. Yes you can end up getting more free RS with the extra FB, but it's a 30% chance and you are only getting 1 more FB every 15 seconds, so it's not like you'll be getting a massive # of extra PPA procs.

 

 

A somewhat quick easy test (even moreso if biochem), go take some #'s on your abilities, then take a reflex stim for the aim boost. The 128 on the biochem stim is right about 9% of 1400, which is probably a fair #, give or take a bit. After taking the stim, recheck #'s and see if the increase would add up to the difference between what FB and TD hit for. (This is really a pretty huge oversimplification I admit)

 

 

I'd also add, we're not playing WoW here, no one is doing 30,000 DPS. We're seemingly in the mid 1K range. At those levels, I think fight mechanics, RNG, player skill, lag, *bugs*, whatever, matter as much as where your last 4 points go, if not more. If you get lucky in a fight with lots of PPA procs, you'll be doing very well (until you pull aggro and die ), if you use all your luck up that fight, and can't buy a PPA to save your life on next boss, you could be doing 100's of DPS less.

 

You missed out on one very important thing, railshot reduces heat instead of costing heat when it procs. Tossing out a TD on cool down causes you to use more even more rapid shots than builds without it. If heat wasn't a huge issue with TD then i wouldn't have a problem with it.

 

If it also proced rail shots it would be awesome

 

I would love you to link those so called simulators you are claiming exist.

Edited January 19, 2012 by Eroex

[xeldumont]

 

I would love you to link those so called simulators you are claiming exist.

 

 

sithwarrior BH forums, check the powertech threads.

 

 

I am not saying they are gospel, but it's some folks actually trying to really figure this stuff out with hard #'s instead of just saying this is better than that because I say so.

Edited January 19, 2012 by xeldumont

[Eroex]

sithwarrior BH forums, check the powertech threads.

 

 

I am not saying they are gospel, but it's some folks actually trying to really figure this stuff out with hard #'s instead of just saying this is better than that because I say so.

 

Yea i read some of their stuff. What is this use rapid shots if your heat is over 15 nonsense?

 

15?! 40 i can see but 15 is pretty much rapid shots every other ability.

 

 

Also not using 3/3 puncture? I don't get it.

Edited January 19, 2012 by Eroex

[MorningMusume]

My spreadsheet is not a simulation, and is by no means perfect, but now supports almost every Powertech dps build (Thermal Detonator will be added in the next days). If you wanna test with it and tell me your feedback would be great.