Do you support an in game version of Recount. Please give reasons for your answer.

[Karkais]

I am in favor of combat logs.

 

I am not familiar with this program called recount, but Im willing to support anything that gives me a way to measure my damage, damage over time and other combat statistics.

[pure_laced]

Ever get 1 shot by a boss in HM from full health to zero? Want to know why instead of playing guesswork? Combat logs are the answer.

 

I think they are really hesitant to release combat logs (they already exist in Warzones so the functionality is already there) is because their game balance is screwed up and they know it. Allowing us access to it, will further prove what the community already suspects.

 

Until they fix class balances internally for several months, then they will release combat logs.

[Frostvein]

I support a damage meter that shows you your own damage so you can work to improve. I do not support any kind of meter that shows you someone else's damage so that you can embarrass, insult, kick, or harrass them, or engage in other elitist behavior.

 

Yes, I know, some people get frustrated with bad players. Tough. This isn't a major league sports team with millions of dollars on the line where someone making a mistake can dramatically affect your life. This is a game. Its none of your business if another player isn't putting out as much damage or healing as you think they should. If they are playing to the best of their ability then they can do no more. If they are capable of better performance, though, a personal damage meter will begin to teach them that, especially when they hear what kinds of numbers other players are putting out.

 

I understand that people want to be able to quickly identify problem performers and weed them out. People need to stop putting their desire to feel accomplishment in a video game over the need for people to be treated like human beings. Get a grip. And some perspective.

 

Why is your idea of fun more important then mine?

[rahlle]

Damage meters is clearly necessary, if you want competetive OR progressive PVE/PVP. There is actually no way to calculate either if your spec is right or if you're using the right compination for the time being, a damage meter would fix this.

 

+ It would add a fun aspect of raiding, instead of just clearing the same instance over and over again. This would buy some time for the Ops developers to develop more content due to the lackage of the current one.

 

+ would paint out the one who's dragging the group/ops down, if you're wiping because of a player, you want to know that, not waste time trying out different tricks and tactics.

[Daggerhowl]

Damage meters is clearly necessary, if you want competetive OR progressive PVE/PVP. There is actually no way to calculate either if your spec is right or if you're using the right compination for the time being, a damage meter would fix this.

 

+ It would add a fun aspect of raiding, instead of just clearing the same instance over and over again. This would buy some time for the Ops developers to develop more content due to the lackage of the current one.

 

+ would paint out the one who's dragging the group/ops down, if you're wiping because of a player, you want to know that, not waste time trying out different tricks and tactics.

 

 

 

This is a perfect example of how misleading can be a recount in any game...

 

...if you want competetive OR progressive PVE/PVP..

 

No, you don't need DPS for competitive PvP, all is about reaction time and knowledge of the class you are fighting, so you can react appropriately and nullify his attacks. The window that you have to do effective DPS is extremely short, it favors burst damage, that is "diluted" so to speak during the full lenght of the fight.

 

 

+ It would add a fun aspect of raiding, instead of just clearing the same instance over and over again. This would buy some time for the Ops developers to develop more content due to the lackage of the current one

 

If BW is not able to develop new content at the required pace so the average player ends clearing the current content at the level of boredom, it is THEIR fault, not ours, and they should feel the pressure of losing subs if that makes them to stop being lazy (that they aren't at the moment)

 

+ + would paint out the one who's dragging the group/ops down, if you're wiping because of a player, you want to know that, not waste time trying out different tricks and tactics.

 

If a single player is wiping your raid it means a fail in his/her role in the fight according to the designed strategy, and that is not shown in the parses. You don't need Recount to know that a player broke a cc, an offtank did not taunt the boss from the main tank on time, etc. unless the raid leader is tunnelvisioning him/herself checking recount.

The only way that a player would be "dragging" your group down is in the mindnumbing DPS races, where a DPS mark is needed to beat an enrage timer. These types of fights show a lazy encounter design and were developed precisely because there was a Recount implemented and people wanted to show their epeen in it

Edited March 16, 2012 by Daggerhowl

[Woetoo]

No.

 

With 76 pages of replies already. I'm sure someone's already made my case.

 

I could go into lot of detail. But my argument boils down to I don't like how divisive having tools like this became in WoW. I recognise that the tool itself isn't to blame for people's bad behaviour - but the reality is that it makes that sort of thing easier.

 

If bioware could restrict combat logs to "my character's environment and activities only". Maybe. But they won't.... So No.

[daddymoofle]

WoW's true "horrible addon" was GearScore, not Recount. DPS and Healers both benefit from Recount - they help you work out your kinks to get better. Now, GS on the other hand ... that's just straight ePeen.

 

General: LF1M DPS HM Foundry; be at least 7200GS and have XYZ codex entries.

 

Ugh, I don't miss that s*** at all.

[Koensayr]

For personal use I say yes. It's a great tool for tweaking your gameplay.

 

For everyone to see. No. I think at best let guilded players see each others performance.

 

I'd really rather not have to deal with the elitist crap I saw in WoW towards the end. Even if you're topping the meters it can be a pain. Why? Because you invariably end up in a group where someone else will want to kick the lowest guy. It sounds fine in theory, but then maybe you get another "noob", and instead of just running the instance/flashpoint, now you're spending 30 minutes trying to get a "leet" group together when not everyone needed to be doing 30k DPS to begin with. The run was designed for 3 DPS'ers that could pull 5k at best, but now suddenly it's OMG we need to down every boss in under 30 seconds.

 

If a player sucks, you don't need meters to tell you that. Look for the telltale signs: Is he taking more damage than others in a similar role? Is he standing in the fire? Is he not getting out of the AOE? Is he facing the right way? Does he have his armor on? Is his name Pwndyou (or something similar)?

 

Bottom line: It's a great tool for both personal and group use, but it also has it's drawbacks if you decide to opensource everyone's damage/healing.

[gtsi]

For what its worth, No.

Having a recount like addon will result in the kind of elitist attitudes that plague WOW.

This started out with "Hmm that guys dps isnt as high as everyone elses so that must be why we are failing this encounter"

Then escalated to gearscore."Im not even going to give that guy a chance in my raid because he doesnt LOOK like he can do as much dps as I think we need"

 

Personal information to enable you to see your own dps and combat log would be fine.

 

Please dont campaign to turn this game into a gearscore mess again...

[GOYAFIDO]

WoW's true "horrible addon" was GearScore, not Recount. DPS and Healers both benefit from Recount - they help you work out your kinks to get better. Now, GS on the other hand ... that's just straight ePeen.

 

General: LF1M DPS HM Foundry; be at least 7200GS and have XYZ codex entries.

 

Ugh, I don't miss that s*** at all.

 

We have Gearscore..."Armor Rating.:cool:"

[GOYAFIDO]

This is a perfect example of how misleading can be a recount in any game...

 

 

 

No, you don't need DPS for competitive PvP, all is about reaction time and knowledge of the class you are fighting, so you can react appropriately and nullify his attacks. The window that you have to do effective DPS is extremely short, it favors burst damage, that is "diluted" so to speak during the full lenght of the fight.

 

 

 

 

If BW is not able to develop new content at the required pace so the average player ends clearing the current content at the level of boredom, it is THEIR fault, not ours, and they should feel the pressure of losing subs if that makes them to stop being lazy (that they aren't at the moment)

 

 

 

If a single player is wiping your raid it means a fail in his/her role in the fight according to the designed strategy, and that is not shown in the parses. You don't need Recount to know that a player broke a cc, an offtank did not taunt the boss from the main tank on time, etc. unless the raid leader is tunnelvisioning him/herself checking recount.

The only way that a player would be "dragging" your group down is in the mindnumbing DPS races, where a DPS mark is needed to beat an enrage timer. These types of fights show a lazy encounter design and were developed precisely because there was a Recount implemented and people wanted to show their epeen in it

 

To reiterate:

 

Lots of people seem to say the same thing over and over about DPS races and enrage timers, (dps races and enrage timers in a game based on numbers, wierd, I know), and equate it with poor design...and then they offer no suggestions except for the occasional, "make it about everything else first and damage second."

 

That "everything else" to which people refer is often called "the dance."

 

Bear in mind that a lot of DPS races exist in part because some people can't be bothered to learn, or simply can't do, "the dance."

 

Encounter designs do bear the quality and competence of the player in mind. The easier the content, the less capable and competent the player has to be to in order to complete it.

 

It would be nice if someone actually offered real suggestions instead of parroting the same opinion: "recount is bad because it emphasizes damage and we all know fights that emphasize damage are poorly designed fights" over and over again.

 

Personally I think it's because no one actually has any substantial suggestions, they simply don't like the emphasis recount places on damage. Did I miss someone's substantial suggestions? I will be happy to go read them.

[Skirata_Kal]

For what its worth, No.

Having a recount like addon will result in the kind of elitist attitudes that plague WOW.

This started out with "Hmm that guys dps isnt as high as everyone elses so that must be why we are failing this encounter"

Then escalated to gearscore."Im not even going to give that guy a chance in my raid because he doesnt LOOK like he can do as much dps as I think we need"

 

Personal information to enable you to see your own dps and combat log would be fine.

 

Please dont campaign to turn this game into a gearscore mess again...

 

Agreed! Nothing was more laughable then the people who would spam their recount after a boss fight in a 5man where the boss went down with no problem! I agree that it can be useful, but more often then not it's a griefing or epeen stroking tool.

 

I mean picture it, we get the recount and what's one of the first thing that happens? "HEY! Class X is doing 1% more dps than mine consistently! Nerf him!" And then begins the constant tweeking of classes that leads to us having FotM classes with constant QQ's for nerfs, hard feelings by the people getting nerfed, etc. If you think the community is caustic now...

 

No, PLEASE keep that elitist crap in WoW! Not here!

Edited February 17, 2012 by Notannos

[Narny]

I'd support a threat meter way more than a dps meter. Dps meters are a nicety at the moment, but to have no visible way of seeing your threat against the tank, or more importantly for the tank to have no way of seeing if he has agro, is game breaking.

[TheSkate]

It would be nice if someone actually offered real suggestions instead of parroting the same opinion: "recount is bad because it emphasizes damage and we all know fights that emphasize damage are poorly designed fights" over and over again.

 

Personally I think it's because no one actually has any substantial suggestions, they simply don't like the emphasis recount places on damage. Did I miss someone's substantial suggestions? I will be happy to go read them.

 

Have there been any real suggestions (i think you meant reasons/valid arguments) FOR recount besides people parroting the same opinion "Recount is needed because without it I can't min/max, call people bads and show off my huge e-peen." over and over again?

 

Personally I think it's because there is no need for recount. ALL content has been beaten in ALL modes WITHOUT recount.

Did someone actually give a substantial suggestion as to why it is needed other than e-peen? After all, min/maxing "my DPS is higher than yours" is nothing but e-peen waving. Especially in a game where maximizing your DPS is not necessary.

 

Just because all the best guilds in WoW use recount or a recount type addon doesn't mean they are needed here. If you miss it that much... well you know what to do.

Edited February 17, 2012 by TheSkate

[Daggerhowl]

To reiterate:

 

...It would be nice if someone actually offered real suggestions instead of parroting the same opinion: "recount is bad because it emphasizes damage and we all know fights that emphasize damage are poorly designed fights" over and over again...

 

 

It happens because people don't seem to understand how much a recount will put pressure in the developers to keep "droids" players happy. For me would be more fair kicking a player because s/he is not able to do "the dance" like you named it, than because he was not able to be "droid" enough.

 

Suggestions? It is not about suggestions to "solve" a problem, at the end all boils down to how BW will approach their game in the future. Without a Recount there will never be the need of tossing a DPS race in game. That would free the developers to really show their creativity, bosses with low health but with a plethora of interesting abilities that will force you to use ALL the tools in your arsenal properly, not spending 5 minutes using only three of them.

 

I will not keep posting , I feel like I am beating a dead horse...

Edited March 16, 2012 by Daggerhowl

[GOYAFIDO]

It happens because people don't seem to understand how much a recount will put pressure in the developers to keep "droids" players happy. For me would be more fair kicking a player because s/he is not able to do "the dance" like you named it, than because he was not able to be "droid" enough.

 

Suggestions? It is not about suggestions to "solve" a problem, at the end all boils down to how BW will approach their game in the future. Without a Recount there will never be the need of tossing a DPS race in game. That would free the developers to really show their creativity, bosses with low health but with a plethora of interesting abilities that will force you to use ALL the tools in your arsenal properly, not spending 5 minutes using only three of them.

 

I will not keep posting , I feel like I am beating a dead horse...

 

People keep saying they want more dance and less damage, but don't seem to realize that most encounters are designed so that they rely LESS on actual player quality not MORE.

 

Relying on consistent team work, maneuver, awareness, knowledge of class, knowledge of an encounter, etc., from most casual players, is not reasonable, not because they suck but because they are CASUAL and a lot of them just play for "funsies" or whatever and often want to play THEIR way and not be told what to do rather than in a truly effective fashion, and so often they aren't as good as they could be even without being hardcore min/maxers.

 

This isn't to say I think they suck, just that as a group they are not very reliable.

 

Some of them do nod in that direction but it seems to me that the people most likely to want to do well as a player and at an encounter without being carried will try to do all of the above in some fashion given the time they have to play.

 

Look at all the people saying how easy swtor's end game content is. It was designed more with the worst players in mind, not the best.

 

Sometimes the best a group of players can do is two light trash pulls and an end boss like Gamera "friend to all children" (with alternating air and ground phases.)

 

People keep saying, (I have said it myself), that they would take an overall better player with much worse damage than a monster DPSer that stands in fire.

 

Let's consider that. Is it really that likely that a player with those qualities and knowledge would actually do substantially under par damage? Perhaps on occasion, but usually not, I think, and that type of player will normally accept advice and tune up and get better rather than be one of those "You can't tell ME what to do and how to play my game. I'm just here for casual fun so don't mind me if I drag your gaming experience down" players.

 

Generally speaking, the better the player, the better they dance, the worse the player, the better they are at beating on inanimate rocks with sticks RATHER than dancing.

 

Encounters will be designed accordingly. Stop making it sound like there is this teeny tiny well of encounter content that the inept staff at BW draws from. They have access to years of study and designs to draw from and they are as professional as can be at this point in swtors life cycle and they make decisions based on YOUR abilities and how YOU will react to their content. IMO it's the expected quality of players and their willingness to contribute versus being carried, that has the most influence on design.

 

The content will not get much better as long as the "You can't tell ME what to do and how to play my game. I'm just here for casual fun so don't mind me if I drag your gaming experience down" players hold sway. While not always, they tend to be the least common denominator as players.

 

Nothing to see here.

Edited February 17, 2012 by GOYAFIDO

[mrcaptainpants]

Why is your idea of fun more important then mine?

 

Well, I'd ask you the same question.

 

Regardless, if you've read my other posts, you would note that I am of the opinion that there is room for some sort of compromise.

 

 

<SNIP> I, personally, would be willing to compromise on my basic "Its none of your darn business" position if not everyone and their protocol droids had access to these metrics. If it was restricted to guild Leaders and perhaps party or raid leaders and could not be posted in chat for all to see, then it would enable problem performers to be addressed tactfully without a mob mentality behind it.

 

I actually don't so much have a problem with someone saying "Hey, as guild leader I have to let you know your dps output was well below the average expected metric just now. Was there something going on that may have caused this? Here are some sources you might consult to help you improve..."

 

I definitely have a problem with:

 

Player A: OMG, healer you suck!

Player B: I know, look at the recount score! Learn 2 play, noob!

Player C: LMAO! ***? Are you new???

Player D: I have a one-armed alt that can do better than that!

 

...and so on. [EDIT: If I wanted that, I'd play Wow.]

 

Metrics in the hands of responsible people who can tactfully address performance issues is okay.

 

But for everyone in the game to think they have to right to review every other player's performance and do so in the most rude and public manner possible? NOT okay.

 

Is that not a compromise you can live with? Or is it your feeling that nothing short of giving every single player access to every other player's output numbers will be acceptable?

[Tygranir]

All content is being cleared without recount.... so why is it needed? It isn't.

 

You may want it, but that would be a tool that could be used to trivialize current content, thus BW would have to vamp up the difficulty to compensate fo these "Recounters". This would force

"Non-Recounters" to either use recount or study someone else build websites to be effective. This would then digress to the WoW style of **** noob.

 

No thanks. Not needed in SWTOR.

[MajikMyst]

All content is being cleared without recount.... so why is it needed? It isn't.

 

It actually is needed, for more reasons than just clearing content..

 

Without some sort of mechanism to know how good you are doing.. Or how good your heals are.. You really have no way to know if you are even playing your character right.. Are you using the best rotation?? Is your spec good?? Would you get better perfomance by moving a few points.. What about your build?? Should you have a little more surge and less power?? Maybe you need more Alacrity or defense raiting if your a tank?? We simply have no feedback on our characters performance.. HPS, DPS, Damage taken, Amount healed, ect. ect.

 

If all you used recount for was DPS then you simply didn't use it.. It is incorrect to say that recount was just about clearing content.. So the above statement is simply false..

 

I would much prefer to get recount or something like it as in something that is built into the game and not an addon.. But I will settle for an addon..

 

Recount is all about character feedback.. How good is our build and spec.. It has almost nothing to do with clearing content.. As a guild leader and a group leader, recount can also tell you who is or who isn't performing.. Not so important in pugs, but it is important in guilds.. If someone is weak on heals or DPS, then thight might need to be addressed to help them out.. It could just be a gear or mod issue.. Reguardless.. It is an awsome and invaluable tool for player and character quality and identifying problems.. To say it is not needed is again.. Simply incorrect..

Edited February 17, 2012 by MajikMyst

[Tygranir]

It actually is needed, for more reasons than just clearing content..

 

Without some sort of mechanism to know how good you are doing.. Or how good your heals are.. You really have no way to know if you are even playing your character right.. Are you using the best rotation?? Is your spec good?? Would you get better perfomance by moving a few points.. What about your build?? Should you have a little more surge and less power?? Maybe you need more Alacrity or defense raiting if your a tank?? We simply have no feedback on our characters performance.. HPS, DPS, Damage taken, Amount healed, ect. ect.

 

If all you used recount for was DPS then you simply didn't use it.. It is incorrect to say that recount was just about clearing content.. So the above statement is simply false..

 

I would much prefer to get recount or something like it as in something that is built into the game and not an addon.. But I will settle for an addon..

 

Recount is all about character feedback.. How good is our build and spec.. It has almost nothing to do with clearing content.. As a guild leader and a group leader, recount can also tell you who is or who isn't performing.. Not so important in pugs, but it is important in guilds.. If someone is weak on heals or DPS, then thight might need to be addressed to help them out.. It could just be a gear or mod issue.. Reguardless.. It is an awsome and invaluable tool for player and character quality and identifying problems.. To say it is not needed is again.. Simply incorrect..

 

You REALLY should have read the rest of the post.

[MajikMyst]

You REALLY should have read the rest of the post.

 

I did.. Please correct me if I am wrong here.. But I did not see where you comments suggested there was a need for feedback on our characters.. Overall you appeared to be against it and if you wanted it you were a WOW ******** Noob..

 

As of now we have no feedback on our characters and we are in a sense playing blind because of it.. Sure.. We are clearing content.. Which probably means that they will need to be much more challenging when people are actually able to crunch the numbers and find out what the best builds are, the best rotations, and what are the most helpful stats in what amounts..

 

Again.. Please correct me if I misunderstood.. I will offer my apology if I did.. I just didn't read your post as one that acknowleged the benefits of recount or something like it..

[Tygranir]

I did.. Please correct me if I am wrong here.. But I did not see where you comments suggested there was a need for feedback on our characters.. Overall you appeared to be against it and if you wanted it you were a WOW ******** Noob..

 

As of now we have no feedback on our characters and we are in a sense playing blind because of it.. Sure.. We are clearing content.. Which probably means that they will need to be much more challenging when people are actually able to crunch the numbers and find out what the best builds are, the best rotations, and what are the most helpful stats in what amounts..

 

Again.. Please correct me if I misunderstood.. I will offer my apology if I did.. I just didn't read your post as one that acknowleged the benefits of recount or something like it..

 

I am not saying anything about the people who want recount or the benefits of it. I am merely citing the negatives. If recount is added, it will force me to play the way others believe is best, not the way that I get the most enjoyment. I am the MT for my guild, a PT, and have no problems seeing where work is needed. This game is not that difficult, why make it easier?

[MajikMyst]

I am not saying anything about the people who want recount or the benefits of it. I am merely citing the negatives. If recount is added, it will force me to play the way others believe is best, not the way that I get the most enjoyment. I am the MT for my guild, a PT, and have no problems seeing where work is needed. This game is not that difficult, why make it easier?

 

I don't understand how it will make you play any different than you are now..

 

The game is easy because the tons of people complained it was to hard in the beta, and now for many, it is to easy..

 

Difficulty or not, we need the feedback on our characters performance.. I also think they need to put the difficulty back to what it was in the August build of the beta.. Leveling took a lot longer then too.. It was sad that people were reaching 50 a mere 5 days after launch..

 

Overall we need something to give players the feedback they want.. Some people are just nerdy or geeky like that.. They can make the game or parts of it more difficult later..

 

I am interested in understanding how something like this effects your game play..

[Tygranir]

I don't understand how it will make you play any different than you are now..

 

The game is easy because the tons of people complained it was to hard in the beta, and now for many, it is to easy..

 

Difficulty or not, we need the feedback on our characters performance.. I also think they need to put the difficulty back to what it was in the August build of the beta.. Leveling took a lot longer then too.. It was sad that people were reaching 50 a mere 5 days after launch..

 

Overall we need something to give players the feedback they want.. Some people are just nerdy or geeky like that.. They can make the game or parts of it more difficult later..

 

I am interested in understanding how something like this effects your game play..

 

Read my first post.

[GOYAFIDO]

All content is being cleared without recount.... so why is it needed? It isn't.

 

You may want it, but that would be a tool that could be used to trivialize current content, thus BW would have to vamp up the difficulty to compensate fo these "Recounters". This would force

"Non-Recounters" to either use recount or study someone else build websites to be effective. This would then digress to the WoW style of **** noob.

 

No thanks. Not needed in SWTOR.

 

Interestingly you view recount as a magic "leet" bullet which it assuredly is NOT and has never been, and furthermore you think it will trivialize content that many of if not most people are saying is trivial RIGHT NOW.

Edited February 18, 2012 by GOYAFIDO