Operatives Don't Need a Nerf Because...

[SandTrout]

Expertise exists.

 

Hear me out here.

 

Expertise rewards those players who put their time toward a specific aspect of the game, but only for that aspect of the game. PvP gear doesn't work as well as PvE gear in PvE, and visa vera. Unless you've placed large amounts of time into PvP, you don't have the gear to put you on even footing with the battle-masters and whatnot.

 

This means that if you're complaining about Scoundrels and Operatives being OP, that just means that you haven't invested enough time in your Scoundrel or Operative since those classes were designed to do well in PvP.

 

Stop being a nub and roll a PvP class instead of running around with a PvE class.

 

Disclamer: I do not actually support this argument, it is just a logical conclusion of those arguing to keep Expertise because it rewards PvPers based on PvP play time rather than skill.

[Coord]

I dont even know what I just read?

 

What?

 

 

Nope, reread it, still dont see the point your trying to troll.

[SandTrout]

I dont even know what I just read?

 

What?

 

 

Nope, reread it, still dont see the point your trying to troll.

 

I'm pointing out how illogical the claims of needing expertise to segregate PvP and PvE are.

[Coord]

Im not seeing the arguement as how that is illogical?

 

 

Pvpers want to pvp... but pvers want to roll all pvpers because they got super raid gear? Ummm wut?

[SandTrout]

Im not seeing the arguement as how that is illogical?

 

 

Pvpers want to pvp... but pvers want to roll all pvpers because they got super raid gear? Ummm wut?

Then make the same gear available to both sides. Expertise has no reason to exist if PvEer's can't roll PvPers with raid gear.

[Coord]

Then PVERs would rage out, PvP is largely a grind fest, nobody is going to deny that, Raiding requires a little more organisation. They are different things, but if they give pvp gear equal stats to pve then wheres the reward for putting in the 5 hours it takes to clear that op, or to gather your guys up, or to run the countless hardmode missions required to get the neccesary tank gear to finish an op?

 

 

You may as well afk pvp till youve got your awesome tank gear then farm ops... now THAT is illogical.

[SandTrout]

Then PVERs would rage out, PvP is largely a grind fest, nobody is going to deny that, Raiding requires a little more organisation. They are different things, but if they give pvp gear equal stats to pve then wheres the reward for putting in the 5 hours it takes to clear that op, or to gather your guys up, or to run the countless hardmode missions required to get the neccesary tank gear to finish an op?

 

 

You may as well afk pvp till youve got your awesome tank gear then farm ops... now THAT is illogical.

Then, logically, the PvE game is not fun, and we shouldn't be playing it because it's not fun.

[Coord]

I dont play pve, im a pvper, go figure.

[SandTrout]

I'm mostly a PvPer as well, but I like doing raids with my guild occassionally. I don't like the fact that I need to grind to be on even footing in PvP. I want to play against you, not your equipment.

[crazyharry]

Then, logically, the PvE game is not fun, and we shouldn't be playing it because it's not fun.

 

Nothing to do with what is logical. People will take the path of least resistance. If you can AFK your way to a decent set of gear that will make the raid boss encounter easier people will do it.

 

Some people like the fight, some like the kill. the better your gear, the easier the kill.

[AGoldCrayon]

Expertise exists.

 

Hear me out here.

 

Expertise rewards those players who put their time toward a specific aspect of the game, but only for that aspect of the game. PvP gear doesn't work as well as PvE gear in PvE, and visa vera. Unless you've placed large amounts of time into PvP, you don't have the gear to put you on even footing with the battle-masters and whatnot.

 

This means that if you're complaining about Scoundrels and Operatives being OP, that just means that you haven't invested enough time in your Scoundrel or Operative since those classes were designed to do well in PvP.

 

Stop being a nub and roll a PvP class instead of running around with a PvE class.

 

Disclamer: I do not actually support this argument, it is just a logical conclusion of those arguing to keep Expertise because it rewards PvPers based on PvP play time rather than skill.

 

I liked where you were going with your reductio ad absurdum except that it turned into more of a non sequitur. I don't remember seeing where Bioware stated scoundrels and ops were designed for pvp where other classes were designed for pve.

 

If Bioware came out and said 'x class is for pvp, and y class is for pve', then such a comparrison would be valid.

 

edit: I don't know who is saying expertise is there to reward pvp'ers, I thought it was a mechanic to balance pvp gained gear against pve gained gear. Thus raiders wouldn't be dominating pvp, and likewise pvp'ers wouldn't breeze through end game content without progression.

Edited January 16, 2012 by AGoldCrayon

[Coord]

Raid boss - 900k hp

 

Jedi Sage - 13k hp

 

 

You want to drop everybodys damage down to pvp levels? Good luck completing that next op.

 

 

Simple fact, numbers are different, PvP combat SHOULD be slower, using your abilities tactically, such as interupts on heals, stuns and incapacitates etc. When this isnt the case you see alot of frustration, such as the current rage at Operatives, as their damage leaves little room for tactical play.

 

PVE is a dps race, nuke as hard and fast as you can, the two cannot have their gear balanced.

 

 

WoW fixed this the opposite way that BW have gone for, IE, WoW's resiliance makes pvp players last longer, whereas BW have gone for non-pvp players die faster. I dont know which is better but the end result is the same, it works.

[SandTrout]

Nothing to do with what is logical. People will take the path of least resistance. If you can AFK your way to a decent set of gear that will make the raid boss encounter easier people will do it.

Ban PvP idlers, problem solved. Alternately, bust them down to level 1 and strip all their gear and money. They exist anyways, and are violating terms of service.

 

It is logical, though, that if the PvE game is so bad that people only play it for the gear, then there is an issue with PvE. If people want to grind PvP to get the gear to play PvE, then no one is harmed or interfered with because 99% of PvE is instanced anyways.

 

Some people like the fight, some like the kill. the better your gear, the easier the kill.

Great, but why make someone do something they don't like in order to do something that they do in a game? If they don't like PvP, and they do like PvE, they can get their gear by doing what they like, instead of doing something they don't like that happens to be a bit quicker. You give them the choice, and it's a choice that can't hurt anyone except themselves.

[SandTrout]

I liked where you were going with your reductio ad absurdum except that it turned into more of a non sequitur. I don't remember seeing where Bioware stated scoundrels and ops were designed for pvp where other classes were designed for pve.

 

If Bioware came out and said 'x class is for pvp, and y class is for pve', then such a comparrison would be valid.

Yes, I know all that, but regardless of what BioWare has stated explicitly, it is a de-facto state of affairs.

[AGoldCrayon]

Yes, I know all that, but regardless of what BioWare has stated explicitly, it is a de-facto state of affairs.

 

Well thankfully BW has the ability to change and tweak things as they see fit. I would very much like to see front loaded damage to be turned down for ops, and give them more survivability instead. Doesn't change though that the inital comparrison was flawed.

[SandTrout]

Simple fact, numbers are different, PvP combat SHOULD be slower, using your abilities tactically, such as interupts on heals, stuns and incapacitates etc. When this isnt the case you see alot of frustration, such as the current rage at Operatives, as their damage leaves little room for tactical play.

It's not a simple fact, it's a matter of taste. I actually happen to like fast combat, and I I'm not actually nerf-herding against the rogue classes because I understand their limitations better than most people, apparently.

 

PVE is a dps race, nuke as hard and fast as you can, the two cannot have their gear balanced.

I severely disagree with you here, based on your above numbers regarding moster health. PvE is based on your ability to survive long enough to defeat monsters, while DPS matters a whole lot more in PvP, where you can burst down an enemy in a matter of seconds.

 

WoW fixed this the opposite way that BW have gone for, IE, WoW's resiliance makes pvp players last longer, whereas BW have gone for non-pvp players die faster. I dont know which is better but the end result is the same, it works.

WoW is not PvP based, it is PvE based, and the only thing expertise does is segregate players from content based on weather they've dedicated their time to PvE or PvP, much like how one chooses to dedicate their time to one class over another.

[SandTrout]

Well thankfully BW has the ability to change and tweak things as they see fit. I would very much like to see front loaded damage to be turned down for ops, and give them more survivability instead. Doesn't change though that the inital comparrison was flawed.

BioWare could easily tweak the numbers on the PvP armor to make it on-par with PvE armor without expertise, as well.

[AGoldCrayon]

BioWare could easily tweak the numbers on the PvP armor to make it on-par with PvE armor without expertise, as well.

 

And thats their call. I don't care about how they do it, only the end result. If they want to change the expertise mechanic, or how much is on gear, thats fine, so long as it results in the same end.

 

edit: That same end being as I stated earlier, pvp gear not being as good for pve, and vice versa.

Edited January 16, 2012 by AGoldCrayon

[Coord]

Except in pve DPS is easily controlled, focussed always on the player with the highest amount of hp, who the healers KNOW to target, and will be ready to spam, unbothered by knockback, interupts, or stuns.

 

Fact of the matter is you claim you want to play against me and not my gears then say that really all you want is to have a dps race, player with best gear wins because he has higher damage output, you need to get your story straight before you come on here crying.

[AGoldCrayon]

Except in pve DPS is easily controlled, focussed always on the player with the highest amount of hp, who the healers KNOW to target, and will be ready to spam, unbothered by knockback, interupts, or stuns.

 

Fact of the matter is you claim you want to play against me and not my gears then say that really all you want is to have a dps race, player with best gear wins because he has higher damage output, you need to get your story straight before you come on here crying.

 

Or alternately, the class with the most front loaded damage wins, if gear is reduced to a simple cosmetic and damage is all class based, as I have seen several people advocate. Either way, a good point.

[SandTrout]

And thats their call. I don't care about how they do it, only the end result. If they want to change the expertise mechanic, or how much is on gear, thats fine, so long as it results in the same end.

 

edit: That same end being as I stated earlier, pvp gear not being as good for pve, and vice versa.

 

I disagree with your end because I see no reason for segregating the PvE and PvP communities. Allowing players more access to the game is only a good thing for me.

 

Except in pve DPS is easily controlled, focussed always on the player with the highest amount of hp, who the healers KNOW to target, and will be ready to spam, unbothered by knockback, interupts, or stuns.

 

Fact of the matter is you claim you want to play against me and not my gears then say that really all you want is to have a dps race, player with best gear wins because he has higher damage output, you need to get your story straight before you come on here crying.

Yes, I am an advocate of removing gear completely from PvP, but I also recognize that there are limitations to what might be accomplished.

 

I am willing to settle for only doing the grind to get the top-end gear once, rather than twice, as is necessary with the current system. Expertise does nothing to correct the gear-gap in any case because people with Battlemaster still have an advantage over me in PvP. All that I am asking for is that my Battlmaster gear to allow me to participate in PvE content just as well as Rakata gear.

[AGoldCrayon]

I disagree with your end because I see no reason for segregating the PvE and PvP communities. Allowing players more access to the game is only a good thing for me.

 

Well, it does two things. It allows those that only want to focus on pve to focus on that without having to do pvp (and mirror for the pvpers, and keep the competitive edge in their respective fields), and it forces those that want to do both (the majority of people) on an even longer grind, which means more money for the company.

 

If you were going to make the gear equal without a pvp stat, people would invariably be drawn to the easier of the two methods in getting that gear.

 

I see nothing wrong with drawing a line in the sand. People aren't being denied access to the game at all, BW is keeping an imbalance from forming between the pvp and pve sides.

[Slechtvalk]

There is no difference in segregation wether here either in wow. Here its called expertise, i dont remeber the name in wow, but there is a crit immunity stat which works only for pvp.

 

 

But i agree, that expertise is not needed in this game.

 

I got 2 items of the 136er pvp set, 99 expertise, its 2,46% more damage, more heal...

 

how many items can you wear with expertise? 16?

 

So if i would "only" wear 136er, it would be about 20% more damage? Beside the fact of having better stats than the normal level 50 gear, i guess i now know why sometimes i get 2 hitted by enemies.

 

I see expertise as game braking for pvp, but i can hear the complains about "why should i farm gear, when i am not able to hit new players harder?"

You will loose new players.

 

get rid of expertise, and you will see those who pvp will play pve cause they can help there with their equipment if they want, and also pve player will play maybe more often pvp.

 

but bioware would loose 50% of timesink, and thats why it wont happen.

[Arancor]

I really can't understand why every MMO that comes out now inherits that HORRIBLE system of rewarding gear for investing time into PvP, that seems to have emerged with WoW.

 

Even a PvP focused game like Warhammer Online did implement this totally crappy gear system. The problems with this system are well known from games like WoW and Warhammer Online and still nobody seems to have learned a thing from this.

 

I really, really liked the gear system in Dark Age of Camelot. In that game, for those who didn't play it, you got a very good gear set when reaching max level through your class quest line (quite similar to the class quest line in ToR). This set, along with some other items from other quests, mad you instantly viable in PvP. The difference between that starter set and the most powerful set at that time was maybe 10% in performance.

 

Unfortunately they changed that in the second expansion which pretty much most DAoC players will agree, was the expansion that ruined the game.

 

Getting different armor was still of use in DAoC because the main difference was specialization. In DAoC you had MUCH more options to customize your gear and there where pretty low hard caps on your stats, so there was no option like "just put all customization points into your main stat". It was also basically impossible to raise all your stats to hard cap, so many people had very different gear sets because the would priorize different things. You also had the option to dye your armor, which was also (at least partially) in Warhammer Online, but unfortunately is not in SWTOR.

 

That gear system was imo the best possible gear system you can have for PvP. I would love to see a system where you can just distribute ALL your item budget points freely, but where stats have very tight diminishing returns (doesn't HAVE to be hard caps). You should start with a basic average set, where you can't customize your points and the reward for pvp'ing should be just more customization options.

[SandTrout]

Well, it does two things. It allows those that only want to focus on pve to focus on that without having to do pvp (and mirror for the pvpers, and keep the competitive edge in their respective fields), and it forces those that want to do both (the majority of people) on an even longer grind, which means more money for the company.

So you want to waste my time? You'll end up getting less of my money. I hate grinding, and no game that I have played have I ever played for the grind/equipment treadmill.

 

If you were going to make the gear equal without a pvp stat, people would invariably be drawn to the easier of the two methods in getting that gear.

I can see how this is an issue for PvE getting equipment faster than PvP, but if the PvP equipment grind if faster, then PvE players shouldn't have a problem because someone having better gear than you doesn't hurt you or hinder you in PvE.

 

I see nothing wrong with drawing a line in the sand. People aren't being denied access to the game at all, BW is keeping an imbalance from forming between the pvp and pve sides.

No, the imbalance exists regardless because gear matters. The absoulte only thing that Expertise, in place of truly equivalent to raid gear, does is create a PvE PvP segregation.