Guardians suck in PvP

[neocoma]

You really don't see the problem you're pointing out here, do you?

 

 

Blade Storm is good IF: you have it talented for a free attack, the animation doesn't bug out, you're well geared, it crits.

 

That's a LOT of 'ifs'. Even on my lowbie gunslinger I can just roll into cover and hit a non-50 with aimed shot and crit for about 4k and regular hit for about 2k. That's with a BASE attack that gunslingers get that shares a cd similar in length to blade storm.

 

A commando can just get Grav Round and push that button all game and crit for 2.8k EASILY. Plus have a talented single target knock-back, plus a 20s cd AOE knockback, plus a flat damage reduction shield, plus heals.

 

Guardians are good only IF: you go focus, you spend all of your time managing Sweep (which means you need singularity and if Force Slow and Stasis are on cd guess what? We can't build it.), you are actually in range, you pop crap loads of stims.

 

That's a lot of 'ifs'. Even if we have all of our CDs up we don't become amazingly powerful, we just barely push ourselves in line with the rest of the classes out there. So for having to spend a lot more effort managing more CDs plus melee range we are returned with being just -barely- in line with everyone else.

 

 

Oh - And as far as our burst being AOE: So? We can burst 4-5k every 9 seconds. That's an obscene amount of time and we can ONLY do that if we have stasis or our slow up. An op/scoundrel can burst someone down and all they need to do is be in stealth. Their attacks are on much lower cds. If they're in stealth they're basically assured a kill.

 

If we have all of our cds up we might get a kill, but really only if we fight someone who isn't geared. If we face someone else in heavy pvp gear we generally won't do anything to them. 4k crits drop to about 2.5k (even though reduction supposedly caps off at 10%) and since we don't have any REAL, RELIABLE damage we usually don't stand a chance.

 

 

The key word being - RELIABLE damage. I don't want my PvP fights to be based entirely on whether or not -I- have the absolute perfect conditions.

 

Thanks man. You seem to be the only perso naround who actually gets the real problem with gaurdians and focus specs.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Paralassa
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[Lord_Ixigan]

Thanks man. You seem to be the only perso naround who actually gets the real problem with gaurdians and focus specs.

 

I'm seriously starting to believe that the people posting screens of their Guard damage on the forum work for BW. They fanatically defend the class when there are glaring issues with the class as a whole. The very foundations of the class are poorly built and designed.

 

 

Someone said they did 390k as Vig? Was that all stimmed up or not? How hard was it for you to actually pull off that much damage? Have you been able to pull even 250k on AVERAGE as Vig?

 

Being able to pull big numbers ONCE is just a statistical fluke. If you were able to pull off those numbers on a consistent basis then I would just say, 'I need to l2p Vig'.

 

 

As for my Op comparison -

 

1. Stealth is on a laughable cd.

 

2. Ops can set their stage way better than we can because they have stealth and more hard disables.

 

3. When a stimmed up Op jumps someone that person dies. Period.

 

4. In order to pull off their damage an Op only has to have ONE condition in place - stealth (barring stims). We have a fairly significant ramp-up time to be able to do our maximum damage.

 

 

 

NO other class out there has the kind of ramp-up time we do. A commando runs to a fight, targets someone, starts spamming gravity shot. Ooooh...sooo hard..oh wait, demo shot! Full auto...dis so hard!

[Rancorzealot]

Highest Sweep I've had is 8320 damage. On average I will crit around 5-6k on sweeps.

[Nellise]

Someone said they did 390k as Vig? Was that all stimmed up or not? How hard was it for you to actually pull off that much damage? Have you been able to pull even 250k on AVERAGE as Vig?

 

Being able to pull big numbers ONCE is just a statistical fluke. If you were able to pull off those numbers on a consistent basis then I would just say, 'I need to l2p Vig'.

 

If it's a fairly long voidstar I'm always over 300k as vigilance without using stims really (I may grab the wz exp buff if it's convenient), think my highest is 440k or something. Once in a while I'll do that in alderaan or huttball, but the reduced damage in those is more because of the style of those games and nothing to do with spec.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Nellise

[Darkshadz]

I'm seriously starting to believe that the people posting screens of their Guard damage on the forum work for BW. They fanatically defend the class when there are glaring issues with the class as a whole. The very foundations of the class are poorly built and designed.

 

 

Someone said they did 390k as Vig? Was that all stimmed up or not? How hard was it for you to actually pull off that much damage? Have you been able to pull even 250k on AVERAGE as Vig?

 

Being able to pull big numbers ONCE is just a statistical fluke. If you were able to pull off those numbers on a consistent basis then I would just say, 'I need to l2p Vig'.

 

 

As for my Op comparison -

 

1. Stealth is on a laughable cd.

 

2. Ops can set their stage way better than we can because they have stealth and more hard disables.

 

3. When a stimmed up Op jumps someone that person dies. Period.

 

4. In order to pull off their damage an Op only has to have ONE condition in place - stealth (barring stims). We have a fairly significant ramp-up time to be able to do our maximum damage.

 

 

 

NO other class out there has the kind of ramp-up time we do. A commando runs to a fight, targets someone, starts spamming gravity shot. Ooooh...sooo hard..oh wait, demo shot! Full auto...dis so hard!

 

1. They have 1 vanish on a long cooldown and they can't stealth when in combat (unless vanish is up)

2. Operatives do crappy substained dps and several of their hard hitting abilities have position requirements.

3. Not always true. Plus, stims are getting nerfed in a few days.

4. They must also be behind their target. As soon as they come out of stealth, they are free kills unless you ignore them.

 

Operatives are really a pain in the *** right now but with the lvl 50s brackets and the stim nerfs it should be easier to deal with them.

[stevesetoe]

Vigi spec is fine too.

It's not based on crazy numbers in WFs, but then again, it's all single target DPS.

Combined with Guardian leap and taunt, you get a good average medal count too.

 

Guardians really are amazing in PVP

(I haven't tried anything other than Vigi though. Just cause I like being Vigi too much)

 

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll215/Stevesetoe/Screenshot_2012-01-12_18_08_56_737553.jpg

 

or

 

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll215/Stevesetoe/Screenshot_2012-01-11_14_49_16_983491.jpg

 

are good examples I guess.

 

Like I said. no crazy numbers, but nice enough considering it's mostly single target.

[Fenwich]

1. They have 1 vanish on a long cooldown and they can't stealth when in combat (unless vanish is up)

2. Operatives do crappy substained dps and several of their hard hitting abilities have position requirements.

3. Not always true. Plus, stims are getting nerfed in a few days.

4. They must also be behind their target. As soon as they come out of stealth, they are free kills unless you ignore them.

 

Operatives are really a pain in the *** right now but with the lvl 50s brackets and the stim nerfs it should be easier to deal with them.

 

I'm confused, I've looked all over the 1.1 patch notes and only see the medpac nerfs. Where is what's happening to the stims located?

 

All Energized, Exotech, and Rakata adrenals and stims now require 400 Biochem for use.

 

That's the ONLY reference I see to stims.

 

Edit: Oh I found it under the PVP consumable thing. Great, so now instead of bursting 8k I'll just burst 6k more often. Woo.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Fenwich

[Highfives]

Nobody said focus dps sucked but you have less survivability than other dps classes, not to mention the other two trees do suck.

 

Also I get top of the leaderboard for medals sometimes on defense Guardian it still doesn't make the class good in my eyes.

[Helig]

Edit: Oh I found it under the PVP consumable thing. Great, so now instead of bursting 8k I'll just burst 6k more often. Woo.

 

They do share a cooldown post-1.1, I think. Previously, you could stack Expertise Consumable with an Adrenal, resulting in biggest bursts once per 5 minutes, and just "big" bursts every 1.5 between Expertise Adrenal cooldowns. Now you'll be able to do "just big" once per 1.5 mins, I believe.

 

Also, Relics still stack with Adrenals, post-1.1, I believe.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Helig

[Drakks]

I'm seriously starting to believe that the people posting screens of their Guard damage on the forum work for BW. They fanatically defend the class when there are glaring issues with the class as a whole. The very foundations of the class are poorly built and designed.

 

 

Someone said they did 390k as Vig? Was that all stimmed up or not? How hard was it for you to actually pull off that much damage? Have you been able to pull even 250k on AVERAGE as Vig?

 

Being able to pull big numbers ONCE is just a statistical fluke. If you were able to pull off those numbers on a consistent basis then I would just say, 'I need to l2p Vig'.

 

Firstly: Why do people like you who think the guardian class is so rough have to dismiss anyone else? Do players like yourself honestly believe, and I'm curious how you get this unwarranted level of ego, they are such experts at games that if you cannot do something the game is broken? Amusingly, I can easily find one player fine with guardians (or who, like myself, believes there are things wrong -- but mostly in our shield tree) for everyone one that thinks they are busted. Why is that? Logic tells you if you take 2 players of the same class, one who is competitive and one who is not, the problem isn't the class. The class can be shown as effective.. the problem quite obviously comes down to how they are being played.

 

I'm a 400 artificer, I don't carry stims - for the record. All my wz commendations go to champion bags and my elusive Mh saber, so I'm not even carrying WZ heals/boosts.

 

All things being said, this doesn't mean I don't find flaws with guardians, I do -- our basic defense as a heavy armor wearer is crap, our shield tree is poorly designed, plasma brand needs to be looked at, f-push resetting f-leap is dumb. I can go on and on, but none of this really limits the potential of the class, and smart play can negate most of it. I'll also say the only class that gives me any real trouble by virtue of class alone is snipers.. they have an up close CC, a knockback that snares, and then can drop behind cover so I cannot re-leap to them. It's also all on a shorter CD then my push. A sniper that knows what he's doing is a pointless fight for me, so I taunt them and never engage one 1v1 unless he's doing somehting stupid.

 

I'm not saying anyone needs to l2p. I think it's a lame approach. What I do think is that this game is made up of a bunch of WoW players who haven't yet shifted their thinking to something else, and have expectations of the just awful levels of homoginization that really ruined that game for me. People think every class should do the same thing the same way and really only be differentiated by class name -- and to that I really so no thanks.

 

Anyway - Focus and Vig are both very capable builds that do very similar damage over a very similar time frame -- Keep in mind that it takes roughly 2 gcds after applying exhaustion (or running Statis to 4 stacks of singularity), So:

 

Focus: FLeap - exhaustion - SS - Slash - Sweep

Vig: Fleap - ohslash - BS - SS - Plasma Brand

 

The damage output at the end of both sequences is roughly the same assuming a single target (in all honestly it's probably slightly higher as Vig assuming single target and a decent gear level), Focus of course shines on AE -- while Vig, I would hazard a guess, is more consistant damage against a single target -- and can also be chained whereas Focus is beheld to the CD of exhaustion. Focus damage is all loaded into one hit, while Vig has it's damage spread.. ie, burst vs. sustained. You can easilly predict which is more effective against players, especially those clumped up around a hutt-ball carrier, a door they are trying to bomb, or a node they are trying to hack/defend.

 

NO other class out there has the kind of ramp-up time we do. A commando runs to a fight, targets someone, starts spamming gravity shot. Ooooh...sooo hard..oh wait, demo shot! Full auto...dis so hard!

 

Vig doesn't really ramp up, Focus does. All melee classes have a build-up option. I'm not sure what your complaint is here. Vig has consistant damage on every hit, but it's still melee -- if you think Commados have it easy, I highly suggest rolling one. I'll admit I have fun on my alt, but I find they are far more limited in objectve wzs then my Guardian. At low levels there is no question that ranged life is far easier than melee -- even at the most basic levels of applying damage. At 50, however, there really aren't situations I find myself wishing for some different class options -- aside from the aforementioned Sniper (and even then it's only because they negate my range-closer).

Edited January 15, 2012 by Drakks

[Rancorzealot]

Focus build isn't bad, People are bad! I tried Vigilance and I prefer it over Focus but right now I love critting people for 7k sweeps lol.

http://i993.photobucket.com/albums/af56/naplesvin/Guardian.png

Edited January 15, 2012 by Rancorzealot

[Fliguy]

The Guardian def needs love for PvP.

 

Those of you who are successful at PvP and WZ with the Guardian as it is, good for you. You're uber and awesome and all that.

 

Me, personally, don't like having to get out the NASA calculator when trying to figure out a rotation (because, let's face it, there isn't one rotation for every situation that comes up in PvP). I don't like getting a headache thinking too hard.

 

The other classes ARE EASIER to play. Plain and simple. You probably can play a Guardian in its current build, but let's face it, it's HARD MODE.

 

Most of the other classes are EASY MODE. I want to play a Jedi Knight and not have to be 4 times as good as my opponents to win. That's just ridiculous, and plain impossible as I'm not a 80-100 + hour a week gamer.

 

I shouldn't have to press 45 buttons to get my class to work, and I shouldn't have to be waiting 2 minutes for my CDs in order to get the Force Sweep to do all the work for me.

 

We get how many stuns compared to the others? How many snares, Roots, etc? That's what I thought.

 

We are also supposed to me masters of the lightsaber. That means the lightsaber, when it hits, should, umm... ACTUALL DO SOME DAMAGE! When your ooponent has 8,000 plus hitpoints, you really think that your 500-700 point strike is going to anything when he turns around and stun locks you for 15 seconds while he takes you down?

 

This class isn't broken, but it needs more tools in the toolbox, that's for sure.

 

I don't expect the "Guardians are fine" camp to agree with me here. You can play well with the current build, and that's great. The REALITY is though, that most Guardian players CAN'T, and so something needs to be done. Make it easier for us to compete. Dumb it down if you have to, BW. Dumb it down to the level of the other classes.

 

It's as though BW decided that only the best of the best can play this class effectively. Thanks.

[sugewise]

The Guardian def needs love for PvP.

 

Those of you who are successful at PvP and WZ with the Guardian as it is, good for you. You're uber and awesome and all that.

 

Me, personally, don't like having to get out the NASA calculator when trying to figure out a rotation (because, let's face it, there isn't one rotation for every situation that comes up in PvP). I don't like getting a headache thinking too hard.

 

The other classes ARE EASIER to play. Plain and simple. You probably can play a Guardian in its current build, but let's face it, it's HARD MODE.

 

Most of the other classes are EASY MODE. I want to play a Jedi Knight and not have to be 4 times as good as my opponents to win. That's just ridiculous, and plain impossible as I'm not a 80-100 + hour a week gamer.

 

I shouldn't have to press 45 buttons to get my class to work, and I shouldn't have to be waiting 2 minutes for my CDs in order to get the Force Sweep to do all the work for me.

 

We get how many stuns compared to the others? How many snares, Roots, etc? That's what I thought.

 

We are also supposed to me masters of the lightsaber. That means the lightsaber, when it hits, should, umm... ACTUALL DO SOME DAMAGE! When your ooponent has 8,000 plus hitpoints, you really think that your 500-700 point strike is going to anything when he turns around and stun locks you for 15 seconds while he takes you down?

 

This class isn't broken, but it needs more tools in the toolbox, that's for sure.

 

I don't expect the "Guardians are fine" camp to agree with me here. You can play well with the current build, and that's great. The REALITY is though, that most Guardian players CAN'T, and so something needs to be done. Make it easier for us to compete. Dumb it down if you have to, BW. Dumb it down to the level of the other classes.

 

It's as though BW decided that only the best of the best can play this class effectively. Thanks.

 

 

What game are you playing? I don't see how it requires a tremendous amount of skill to stack stims and buffs then spam smash/force sweep.

[Drakks]

What game are you playing? I don't see how it requires a tremendous amount of skill to stack stims and buffs then spam smash/force sweep.

 

Honestly it's not even this, I've never done the stacking -- I use a relic, and my sweeps can hit for right under 6k. I think 5800 is my highest.

 

And given that we have a resource that starts with zero, it's not like there are options in rotation. You leap, that gives you three, you can only now spend 3.

 

People need to get to 50 I think, where things do even out. I will agree that pre-50 melee, across the board, has it more difficult than ranged. I'm just not convinced this is the massive issues people try and pretend it to be.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Drakks

[newport]

I've hopped around from focus to vigilance to defense. I end up with highest damage with defense stacked on a healer because we keep each other alive and beat the crap out of 5 people trying to take us down while the rest of the team snipes and captures/defends the points. Also I tend to have the fewest deaths with defense so I spend less WZ time running back from spawn. More time to do damage. It is a bit more complex but it's pretty satisfying to stun/push/mez/taunt 4 enemies trying to take down the healer and you get a lot of protection medals also.

 

A lot less boring then a 4 skill sweep rotation but it does take a bit to get the hang of it.

[Goneplaid]

I certainly see the desire for a class you enjoy performing well in the way you enjoy playing or envision them, however, it has been said before the guardian is a tank class and you seriously shine with a healer or working as a team. This is a fundamental element of the class and is designed to perform this role. Should guardians be able to put out reasonable and respectable damage? Sure, for solo pvp you are more interested in dealing damage than absorbing it, and there are many ways you can do respectable damage with the skills you posess and with experience you can excel well.

 

Despite this many people seem to be crying for not only to remain the class with one of largest ability absorb damage, but to also they want to perform on the same level of DPS as a strait DPS class like an operative or sniper. I'm sorry but you can't have both and remain balanced. You can spec for DPS as a guardian, but you shouldn't have the same numbers or pure damage ability of the glass cannons because by nature of your base class of jedi knight you already have excellent survivability. If you want to have the same DPS numbers and ability, then you need to give up some of your tanking ability and survivability to remain balanced and that my friends is called the Jedi sentinel.

 

This is the entire framework that MMOs are built around, tanks spec'd for tanking don't pull the numbers of strait min maxed DPS I'm sorry and it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.

[newport]

Watch out they will pull out from quote from beta of someone saying re: spec lines 'dps is dps is dps' even though it makes no sense that all dps specs should do the same dps given that their base class has different strengths/weaknesses.

[Fliguy]

What game are you playing? I don't see how it requires a tremendous amount of skill to stack stims and buffs then spam smash/force sweep.

 

You're assuming that my opponent stands still, and doesn't have 3-4 stuns, 3-4 interrupts, 6 snares and easy mode dps.

 

I would ask you what game YOU"RE playing, but it's more apparent that you've never played a Guardian before.

 

Want a challenge? Play a Guardian.

 

If you're an Inquisitor or a IA, enjoy your EASY MODE.

[Darkshadz]

You can't stun someone more than twice in a row.

[newport]

If you trait for free freezing force pvp becomes way easier cause woah everyone is slower and easier to hit. Even if its not free plopping it down against a wily enemy really makes things easier.

[TheLakers]

The OP only proves that the biochem nerf and 50s bracket is justified and consumable stacking is OP'd. 7k sweep? Big deal when Operative/Scoundrels are putting out 16k dmg in about 4 seconds while their target is immobilzed. A geared operative will reduce a fully champ geared Guardian to about 30-40% health before they can even activate their cooldown.

 

Or the fully decked Sorc that has just as much HP as a tanky-spec'd Guardian, only he has a bubble that will COMPLETELY ABSORB JUST ABOUT EVERY ABILITY IN THE GAME for 5-9k dmg.

Edited January 16, 2012 by TheLakers

[RhynoFive]

Bioware, you really need to unjack this class.

[Marqhill]

The OP only proves that the biochem nerf and 50s bracket is justified and consumable stacking is OP'd. 7k sweep? Big deal when Operative/Scoundrels are putting out 16k dmg in about 4 seconds while their target is immobilzed. A geared operative will reduce a fully champ geared Guardian to about 30-40% health before they can even activate their cooldown.

 

Or the fully decked Sorc that has just as much HP as a tanky-spec'd Guardian, only he has a bubble that will COMPLETELY ABSORB JUST ABOUT EVERY ABILITY IN THE GAME for 5-9k dmg.

 

I would honestly love to know where you're getting these numbers. Because they kinda made me lol. First and foremost.

 

I had situations where an operative would immobilize me and kill me before I could recover from the immobilization effect. But that was only when I was A)Not fully PvP geared and B) Not properly controlling my attacker. Once I got full champion gear it would take an operative A LOT longer to kill me then it otherwise would. Additionally, once I started learning how to control them (freezing force so they don't run circles around me, force push to interrupt them and turn the tables on them with a Force Leap, and Force Stasis so that I can set them up for a Dispatch, I haven't had a single problem with that class. Honestly I kill them without even noticing at this point. Even so, they only kill you that quickly if they've stacked their adrenal and relics AND, most importantly, if you're NOT fully PvP geared.

 

That "fully decked sorc" that had more hitpoints than you was not a sorc. That was an assasin. Probably a battlemaster assasin in full battlemaster assasin tank gear. The most hitpoints I've ever seen a sorc have is 16,000. That's right in line with the amount of HP they should have considering how squishy they are. If you have equal gear and you force leap at them and then snare them with freezing force then their life is pretty much over.

 

As far as the Sorc shield that absorbs 5 - 9k damage... LOL Yeah, it doesn't. Against an equally geared sorc that bubble will absorb my first overhead slash. That's about 3k damage. After that I go into the rest of my rotation (Blade Storm, Sunder, Plasma Brand, Freezing Force, Master strike) and that sorc is now down to somewhere around 20% health. Usually I'll just do a Force Stasis to set them up for a dispatch.

 

Another important thing is that if you're going to be PvP'ing then pick up Biochem. There's no point in doing anything else. There's too many useful PvP abilities that you get from using Biochem. The rakata attack adrenal effectively works as a third relic, the rakata medpack will literally save your life, and the rakata might stim gives you a HUGE stat buff without taking up a gear slot. You'd be crazy not to have these things if you're trying to do high end PvP.

[TheLakers]

I would honestly love to know where you're getting these numbers. Because they kinda made me lol. First and foremost.

 

You do realize that was pre-nerf, right? Or are you really that dense? Hence the nerf that was given due to their absurd damage, proving my original point.

 

 

had situations where an operative would immobilize me and kill me before I could recover from the immobilization effect. But that was only when I was A)Not fully PvP geared and B) Not properly controlling my attacker. Once I got full champion gear it would take an operative A LOT longer to kill me then it otherwise would. Additionally, once I started learning how to control them (freezing force so they don't run circles around me, force push to interrupt them and turn the tables on them with a Force Leap, and Force Stasis so that I can set them up for a Dispatch, I haven't had a single problem with that class. Honestly I kill them without even noticing at this point. Even so, they only kill you that quickly if they've stacked their adrenal and relics AND, most importantly, if you're NOT fully PvP geared.

 

You must play against really bad operatives.

 

The most hitpoints I've ever seen a sorc have is 16,000.

 

Now I know you don't actually know what you're talking about. I just premaded with two sages that have 18k+ hp. Both of which can destroy a fully geared battlemaster vig spec'd guardian in a 1v1 fairly easily since they actually know how to play their class.

 

 

As far as the Sorc shield that absorbs 5 - 9k damage... LOL Yeah, it doesn't. Against an equally geared sorc that bubble will absorb my first overhead slash. That's about 3k damage. After that I go into the rest of my rotation (Blade Storm, Sunder, Plasma Brand, Freezing Force, Master strike) and that sorc is now down to somewhere around 20% health. Usually I'll just do a Force Stasis to set them up for a dispatch.

 

Again, sounds like you go up against nothing but scrubby Sorcs. Yes, the shield has been proven to absorb 5k+ dmg on video. And lol if the Sorc actually stood there let you channel Master Strike.

 

Another important thing is that if you're going to be PvP'ing then pick up Biochem. There's no point in doing anything else. There's too many useful PvP abilities that you get from using Biochem. The rakata attack adrenal effectively works as a third relic, the rakata medpack will literally save your life, and the rakata might stim gives you a HUGE stat buff without taking up a gear slot. You'd be crazy not to have these things if you're trying to do high end PvP.

 

Great info bro, "pick biochem" like 90% of the server. Thanks for the valuable insight.

Edited February 29, 2012 by TheLakers

[CapuchinSeven]

Fine is one thing I am on board with. OP(which if you look around the forums is starting to pop up more and more) I will fight to the death until the forums explode or I do.

 

This, totally agree.

 

What will you do when Bioware take away those toys from PvP leaving you with only the expertise stim, your gear, the pvp damage buff, your trinket and pvp hp stims?

 

I'll carry on PVPing and dominating in a Vigilance build, same as I am now.