Guardians suck in PvP

[OdamanPrime]

Anyone decent will drop you. At the same time, if you're with anyone decent they'll drop some aoe with you and the enemy will be dead

[Drakks]

GUARDIANS ARE NOT A TANK CLASS! THEY MERELY HAVE A SUPPOSEDLY TANK TREE WHICH BTW IS UTTER *****!

 

Saber Ward? A friggin 3 minutes cd for 12 secs? Sure, mine is always on bloody cd, you know thats what happens with 3 minutes cd abilities! It's even more sporadic than relying on pulling off a bloody Force Sweep! 2k damage Blade Storm should be good damage for you? What kind fo scrubs do you play with? Any class will blast your puny 2k out the window and without any cd and having a truck full of ranged control that our class utterly lacks. Oh jesus, I stopped reading there.

 

edit:

 

and anyway, I have nothing against you, I just completely dont agree the class is fine and the changes with patch 1.1 dont fix anything AT ALL which makes me even more angry

 

Not sure how I double posted -- go me.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Drakks

[Pwnzie]

Kellhus > Fenwich

 

http://i.imgur.com/mMJf5.jpg

 

 

Being carried by a healer of course proves the class is fine, right? Right?!

 

* Triple face palm here *

[Drakks]

GUARDIANS ARE NOT A TANK CLASS! THEY MERELY HAVE A SUPPOSEDLY TANK TREE WHICH BTW IS UTTER *****!

 

Saber Ward? A friggin 3 minutes cd for 12 secs? Sure, mine is always on bloody cd, you know thats what happens with 3 minutes cd abilities! It's even more sporadic than relying on pulling off a bloody Force Sweep! 2k damage Blade Storm should be good damage for you? What kind fo scrubs do you play with? Any class will blast your puny 2k out the window and without any cd and having a truck full of ranged control that our class utterly lacks. Oh jesus, I stopped reading there.

 

edit:

 

and anyway, I have nothing against you, I just completely dont agree the class is fine and the changes with patch 1.1 dont fix anything AT ALL which makes me even more angry

 

The problems with the guardian class are all around it's defense -- heavy armor doesn't mean anything because mitgation doesn't work correctly 100% of the time, and our defense CDs are on too long a cool down, or are just not that valuable.

 

As far as damage goes, we're fine.

 

Blade Storm is an amazing talent when the animation doesn't bug out, and you are set to use it properly -- it becomes a free attack following a leap, with a high % to crit and a small dot. Mine crit around 2.5k -- and, for a free attack, it's a good return on investment.

 

Stand alone, it's just filler damage because neither the shield tree nor vig is built around a single hard hit like focus is.

[Drakks]

Being carried by a healer of course proves the class is fine, right? Right?!

 

* Triple face palm here *

 

My team had one healer, and it was a pug.

 

Tell you what, you group queue with a healer and post your damage and I'm willing to bet you cannot pull off anything near this because YOU are the problem with your guardian. It should be easy for you though, right? I mean, you seem to think a healer can carry you so go ahead and show me.

 

You'll notice Creek, on the Empire team, outhealed my teams one healer. Then they also had two 100+ healers as well as him -- yet, I dont see anyone even close to my damage.

 

You're not making points anymore with your silly faceplams, you're making excuses.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Drakks

[Pwnzie]

I did not say it is bad per se, I have to talented with Force Rush and Momentum too, so that overhead->blade storm makes a nice combo. But, overall, considering other classes, it really isnt much of a damage at all considering we spend so many points to talent it, and that's without considering Burning Blade cause frankly the damage is more an added insult than anything.

 

That would make our 2.5k blade storm the following: 2 or 3 training points (Momentum), 2 for Force Rush to crit, 2 for some 130 dot damage in 6 seconds (burning blade)

 

Now considering you (it would seem from what youve said) you've spent 7 training points for a 2.5k damage ability which isn't even a 100% sure thing. That's abysmal man.

 

edit: yes Drakks, zerging people is rocket science only you can pull it off man <_<

Edited January 14, 2012 by Pwnzie

[Drakks]

I did not say it is bad per se, I have to talented with Force Rush and Momentum too, so that overhead->blade storm makes a nice combo. But, overall, considering other classes, it really isnt much of a damage at all considering we spend so many points to talent it, and that's without considering Burning Blade cause frankly the damage is more an added insult than anything.

 

That would make our 2.5k blade storm the following: 2 or 3 training points (Momentum), 2 for Force Rush to crit, 2 for some 130 dot damage in 6 seconds (burning blade)

 

Now considering you (it would seem from what youve said) you've spent 7 training points for a 2.5k damage ability which isn't even a 100% sure thing. That's abysmal man.

 

Well, let's be honest - you can remove the dot, and the crit talent also works with dispatch (I got my first annilhator medal from a dispatch crit for 5400). I like the dot though because it keeps people off objectives. So really, momentum is the only thing out of tree I'd take solely for BS, and it makes it free.

 

Vig isn't built around a single high damage, it's built around the chain -- Leap, Oh Slash, BS, Sunder, Plasma B, Force Sweep. I'm far more disappointed with the damage on Plasma Brand then I am Blade Storm -- it's incredibly weak for a 31 point talent.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Drakks

[Pwnzie]

Ah yes im far more disappointed with Plasma Brand as well, it's even crappier and yes I talented Blade Storm all the way too since it;s the only thing we got unless you wanna be another Force Sweep bot, eventho I still think it's sub par.

 

But seriously, Plasma Brand, what the **** is Bioware thinking? Top tier Guardian-only damage ability in our DPS tree and it's utter crap. Boggles my mind, there must be some wrong calculations somewhere, a bug or something in Bioware's calculations cause I dont get it.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Pwnzie

[Drakks]

 

edit: yes Drakks, zerging people is rocket science only you can pull it off man <_<

 

Enough of your excuses and whining. You toss a screenshot up here of you doing it. Put up or shut up -- as you said, it's "easy when you're carried by a healer". I'll check back to see your awesome results.

[Pwnzie]

Havent got a healer to carry me around atm, but will do when I get it as i'll need it as proof to my wishes/suggestion thread when I decide to make it.

[Annerlon]

p.s. and just wonder - Are "burning purpose" and "burning blade" in vigiliance tree so dumb designed or they just bugged and not affected by strenght, power etc?

can soneone answer if you know about issue

[Pwnzie]

they seem to be affected by level and maybe something else, but barely

 

and by that I mean they do 140 damage instead of 130 over 6 seconds lol

 

maybe effected by power stat, not sure

Edited January 14, 2012 by Pwnzie

[LaManoNera]

 

As far as damage goes, we're fine.

 

Blade Storm is an amazing talent when the animation doesn't bug out,

 

This is true for all Guardian attacks. Slash looping two or three times, Riposte not working at all, the cracked out nature of Master Srike etc.

 

Like I said before, if the skill delays and stutters are fixed, that a lone will drastically increase Guardian DPS in PvP. This is seriously my only complaint about playing a DPS Guardian.

[Nellise]

But seriously, Plasma Brand, what the **** is Bioware thinking? Top tier Guardian-only damage ability in our DPS tree and it's utter crap. Boggles my mind, there must be some wrong calculations somewhere, a bug or something in Bioware's calculations cause I dont get it.

 

I don't think you understand the point of Plasma Brand. What makes it, and the dot talents for overhead and blade storm, good is the type of damage it does. It's not mitigated in the same way the other attacks are. Elemental has much lower mitigation levels on almost everything. You see all those tanks complaining that armor/shields don't feel like they work? It's because of these types of attacks that bypass that stuff completely.

[Nellise]

they seem to be affected by level and maybe something else, but barely

 

and by that I mean they do 140 damage instead of 130 over 6 seconds lol

 

maybe effected by power stat, not sure

 

They're affected by your bonus damage, same as everything else. Burning Purpose is about a 20% buff on Overhead's damage and Burning Blade is about a 15% buff on Blade Storm's damage.

[Annerlon]

I don't think you understand the point of Plasma Brand. What makes it, and the dot talents for overhead and blade storm, good is the type of damage it does. It's not mitigated in the same way the other attacks are. Elemental has much lower mitigation levels on almost everything. You see all those tanks complaining that armor/shields don't feel like they work? It's because of these types of attacks that bypass that stuff completely.

 

yes and I think that Plasma brand with properly working Burning purpose and burning Blade must do not bad burst damage in design doc of swtor but atm these abilities bugged and do a few damage so I vote to fix this two dots.

[Fenwich]

GUARDIANS ARE NOT A TANK CLASS! THEY MERELY HAVE A SUPPOSEDLY TANK TREE WHICH BTW IS UTTER *****!

 

Saber Ward? A friggin 3 minutes cd for 12 secs? Sure, mine is always on bloody cd, you know thats what happens with 3 minutes cd abilities! It's even more sporadic than relying on pulling off a bloody Force Sweep! 2k damage Blade Storm should be good damage for you? What kind fo scrubs do you play with? Any class will blast your puny 2k out the window and without any cd and having a truck full of ranged control that our class utterly lacks. Oh jesus, I stopped reading there.

 

Other classes require CDs to do their damage as well. Even without unremitting I don't find rangeds control to be overwhelming. Are there games where I feel like a human pinball? Sure. But not 1v1. Also, people tend to not focus you as a tank class. Not only do you have saber ward, you have enure (don't underestimate it).

 

And if you dont like blade storms damage, that's your problem. I find all my abilities hit fine. I've gone 2v1, even 3v1 and won fights. The point of my op was that all the people whining that the class sucks are doing it wrong.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Fenwich

[Fenwich]

Kellhus > Fenwich

 

http://i.imgur.com/mMJf5.jpg

 

Piffle, no biggest hit shown. More large hit SSes please!

 

Also, I did 444k in 1 WZ once. Didn't SS it though

[Pwnzie]

3v1 should be able to make you go from 100% to 0% in matter of seconds, if they dont, it isnt cause you're good at popping enure and saber ward, it's for another reason...

 

Yes other classes use cd's as well, but that has nothing to do with my point. 3 min cd only affects one fight every 3 mins, it's useful but not a main ability cause it;s too sporadic.

[Lord_Ixigan]

The problems with the guardian class are all around it's defense -- heavy armor doesn't mean anything because mitgation doesn't work correctly 100% of the time, and our defense CDs are on too long a cool down, or are just not that valuable.

 

As far as damage goes, we're fine.

 

Blade Storm is an amazing talent when the animation doesn't bug out, and you are set to use it properly -- it becomes a free attack following a leap, with a high % to crit and a small dot. Mine crit around 2.5k -- and, for a free attack, it's a good return on investment.

 

Stand alone, it's just filler damage because neither the shield tree nor vig is built around a single hard hit like focus is.

 

 

You really don't see the problem you're pointing out here, do you?

 

 

Blade Storm is good IF: you have it talented for a free attack, the animation doesn't bug out, you're well geared, it crits.

 

That's a LOT of 'ifs'. Even on my lowbie gunslinger I can just roll into cover and hit a non-50 with aimed shot and crit for about 4k and regular hit for about 2k. That's with a BASE attack that gunslingers get that shares a cd similar in length to blade storm.

 

A commando can just get Grav Round and push that button all game and crit for 2.8k EASILY. Plus have a talented single target knock-back, plus a 20s cd AOE knockback, plus a flat damage reduction shield, plus heals.

 

Guardians are good only IF: you go focus, you spend all of your time managing Sweep (which means you need singularity and if Force Slow and Stasis are on cd guess what? We can't build it.), you are actually in range, you pop crap loads of stims.

 

That's a lot of 'ifs'. Even if we have all of our CDs up we don't become amazingly powerful, we just barely push ourselves in line with the rest of the classes out there. So for having to spend a lot more effort managing more CDs plus melee range we are returned with being just -barely- in line with everyone else.

 

 

Oh - And as far as our burst being AOE: So? We can burst 4-5k every 9 seconds. That's an obscene amount of time and we can ONLY do that if we have stasis or our slow up. An op/scoundrel can burst someone down and all they need to do is be in stealth. Their attacks are on much lower cds. If they're in stealth they're basically assured a kill.

 

If we have all of our cds up we might get a kill, but really only if we fight someone who isn't geared. If we face someone else in heavy pvp gear we generally won't do anything to them. 4k crits drop to about 2.5k (even though reduction supposedly caps off at 10%) and since we don't have any REAL, RELIABLE damage we usually don't stand a chance.

 

 

The key word being - RELIABLE damage. I don't want my PvP fights to be based entirely on whether or not -I- have the absolute perfect conditions.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Paralassa
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[Mattebubben]

I have a small clue to why the OP might have done so much dmg.

If u look at the screenshot u can see that all but 2 enemies are jedi inquisitors.

= Light armor and squishy.

The sith assasin is also 1 of the easiest classes to kill as a guardian.

And the Sorc is not really made to kill Guardians that comes charging.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Mattebubben

[Fenwich]

Yes, our SSes of us topping damage in a WZ clearly shows our damage to be 'unreliable'.

 

Your operative example requires the operative to be in stealth. Without a CD they can be spotted, AOEed, etc. No stealth, no burst.

 

And 9 seconds between burst is a long time to you? Really? 9 seconds is NOTHING. We're doing 3 minute Mage style damage AOE constantly. In heavy armor.

[Zarthorn]

Just a quick update OP.

 

Biochem is now nerfed on test and will be nerfed live on patchday, no more adrenal/stim/pvp buff stacking.

 

So enjoy those stimmed numbers while they last because they are gone next week.

[Fenwich]

Just a quick update OP.

 

Biochem is now nerfed on test and will be nerfed live on patchday, no more adrenal/stim/pvp buff stacking.

 

So enjoy those stimmed numbers while they last because they are gone next week.

 

Yes, the Rakata medpac nerfs will seriously hinder my damage output. No more 8k crits because I get healed for less.

 

And I certainly won't crit more with more chances to force leap and set up my auto crit buff either!

 

Woe is me!

[Drakks]

You really don't see the problem you're pointing out here, do you?

 

 

Blade Storm is good IF: you have it talented for a free attack, the animation doesn't bug out, you're well geared, it crits.

 

That's a LOT of 'ifs'. Even on my lowbie gunslinger I can just roll into cover and hit a non-50 with aimed shot and crit for about 4k and regular hit for about 2k. That's with a BASE attack that gunslingers get that shares a cd similar in length to blade storm.

 

A commando can just get Grav Round and push that button all game and crit for 2.8k EASILY. Plus have a talented single target knock-back, plus a 20s cd AOE knockback, plus a flat damage reduction shield, plus heals.

 

Guardians are good only IF: you go focus, you spend all of your time managing Sweep (which means you need singularity and if Force Slow and Stasis are on cd guess what? We can't build it.), you are actually in range, you pop crap loads of stims.

 

That's a lot of 'ifs'. Even if we have all of our CDs up we don't become amazingly powerful, we just barely push ourselves in line with the rest of the classes out there. So for having to spend a lot more effort managing more CDs plus melee range we are returned with being just -barely- in line with everyone else.

 

 

Oh - And as far as our burst being AOE: So? We can burst 4-5k every 9 seconds. That's an obscene amount of time and we can ONLY do that if we have stasis or our slow up. An op/scoundrel can burst someone down and all they need to do is be in stealth. Their attacks are on much lower cds. If they're in stealth they're basically assured a kill.

 

If we have all of our cds up we might get a kill, but really only if we fight someone who isn't geared. If we face someone else in heavy pvp gear we generally won't do anything to them. 4k crits drop to about 2.5k (even though reduction supposedly caps off at 10%) and since we don't have any REAL, RELIABLE damage we usually don't stand a chance.

 

 

The key word being - RELIABLE damage. I don't want my PvP fights to be based entirely on whether or not -I- have the absolute perfect conditions.

 

I can do the same damage as Vig that I can as focus -- my best vig is 390k, best Focus run is posted. As a dps, I don't generally come in under 300k very much anymore -- and I pug often.

 

This whole if thing doesn't make a single point, because I was referencing one attack. Every class as some attacks boosted, others not. OH Slash will land for over 3k for me, and it doesn't get any direct boosts. I've dispatch crit for over 5k, and again the only talent that impacts it impacts crit rate, not severity.

 

I posted my damage, which reaches the higher damage mark of any class screenshot I've seen. If you want to make excuses on how I did it, that's fine, but I certainly hope you're making the same excuses for other classes -- and not pretending it's somehow diminished because it's a guardian and you need to believe we're weak.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Paralassa
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