Bioware: Allow Advanced Class Respec!

[Pyrolight]

I've played many, many MMORPGs but not DAoC. I get the gist of it though.

 

However we're not talking about [other game here], we're talking about SW:TOR. The proper way to debate is if people against the motion explain what it would take away from the game, so I'm still waiting for someone to do so.

 

Bringing up other MMORPGs is simply an appeal to tradition fallacy, and you can use that bizarre logic to say things like "they shouldn't have put voice acting in the game, other MMOs don't use it".

 

I guess arguing it that way for me would be:

 

It limits my party options and changing my AC does not net me any new content.

[Lethality]

[quote=PJEBarlow;1594721

And now we're in straw man zone, attacking arguments I went out of my way to clear up in advance...

 

I said I don't like the idea of re-rolling my Juggernaut to a Marauder because it's 13 levels of grinding the exact same content, because it doesn't add any difficulty or challenge and only serves to be a tedious waste of a couple of hours.

 

The reason I was happy to invest that time in to a completely different base class is because the entire experience from 1-13 is completely and utterly different.

 

Now, do you understand, or do you have more scare crows to stuff with straw?

 

The problem around here is everyone loves to play the "straw-man" card when their back is up against a wall.

 

I understand you don't LIKE rerolling, however that's precisely what you would have to do in another MMO to get to a class that plays differently, has different abilities, wears different armor and uses different weapons.

 

Cut and dried. Advanced classes ARE the combat classes.

[Jswizzle]

Because nobody here is asking to reroll the class, only the advanced class aka specialization. You don't appear to know the difference.

 

You appear to of never played an RPG. I can play this game too, isn't it fun?

 

I can think of one game that lets you change your class. Atlantica Online. It costs a ton of money and you basically throw everything you have gained on that character down the toilet. Following AO's model I will rethink my opposition.

 

Allow class changes, but put the character back to level 10. Enjoy

[Gunryu]

Here is the best example I can give before I give up because you guys are too stubborn to understand a concept like subclass and classes........

 

I have a bakery, in the bakery I make cookies and decide to make chocolate chip, peanut butter, sugar, molasses, and chocolate............those are sub categories of cookies THEY ARE NOT CAKE!

 

Saying because someone wants to change from their AC it's they want to change their class is saying someone wants a piece of cake because they want to exchange for chocolate chip from peanut butter cookies!

[Pyrolight]

I want to know that the Jedi Knight that's being the typical Jedi Knight goody-two-shoes they are is a Jedi Knight and not some guy who decided to spontaneously change his class to something radically different "just 'cuz". A game without rules isn't a game, and a RPG without adhering to some sort of role isn't a RPG. You pick a role, you play that role. It's not an appeal to tradition, it's an appeal to the genre.

 

Technically then you should ONLY be able to play a DPS or a Tank or a Healer. There should be 3 AC and 1 talent tree in each.

[Azkadellia]

Level 10 is waay too early to lock in an AC. You have no idea what the class plays like, what roles are needed later on, what companions you get, etc.

Right now I'd pay for a single AC reset as the alternative is to scrap my lvl 31 character and start again, with the same name, same quests, same story, same choices....ZZZZZZZZZ

Edited January 14, 2012 by Azkadellia

[Cadiva]

I am saying

 

Sith jugg = Arms/Prot in form and function

Sith Mara = Fury in form and function.

 

Each AC defines a set number of roles.

 

No they're really not. The Sith Warrior plays in the same way from level one to level 10. At level 10 I get to choose my Advanced Class and gain unique class abilities. At level 10 I ALSO get to put points into a skill tree in which to further refine my unique class abilities. It's exactly the same as DAoC and not like WoW.

 

WoW's warrior doesn't play the same as a WoW Druid from level one to 10. A Warrior in Wow can spec into three different play styles at level 10 but they don't change their basic fundamental class, they don't suddenly become able to heal or to cast magic. That's the difference between changing between classes and changing between specialisations.

 

Sure, a singleplayer RPG. But if Mass Effect has no ability (discounting re-building the character between each game) to reset their class for a singleplayer game, why should a multiplayer game that has more impact on other players allow for changing the class? At that point you have characters that can just do whatever they hell they want. Rather than having characters that are specialized in what they do, it becomes a trivial thing.

 

Urm, you're preaching to the converted, I'm not in favour of people being able to change ACs?

Edited January 14, 2012 by Cadiva

[Vlacke]

You should really try reading the thread before responding because it's already been said many times: -

 

Why spend the 2-3 hours? What hugely important aspect of the game is removed by me not grinding Korriban and Dromund Kaas again like a spacebar-mashing zombie?

 

Nobody has answered yet.

 

If you grind you've done the exact same quests to get up to choosing your AC, you now have new skills. If there was a respec, boom you would have new skills. It's the exact same net result and nothing of value is actually lost, in fact you've saved a couple of hours, which sounds like a net benefit to me at no detriment to the game or anybody else who is playing it.

 

I had no problem in deleting a few level 12-14 characters once i realized that the other AC was the way to go.

 

Hell, i even deleted a level 20 Sentinel because i play with two friends and one of them should have chosen a Vanguard to tank, the other is a healer Sage and i was going to DPS, but my stoned buddy misread and chose Commando instead, we realized later that it will be really needed to have a tank for doing flashpoints just us, and my friend really liked his Commando by then so i said no problem, i will go Guardian (having a Juggernaut already and liking the play style made it easy for me), just wait for me for a day or so....i don't see what the big deal is about having to start over at some point, especially at low level.

 

Advanced Classes are unique at their change shouldn't be an option.

[Alohen]

I think they should offer an Advanced Class Respec at levels 10 to 20, so that the 10 levels is as much time to find out if you like the class or not, but once you go to 21, you cant change. That would be a decent system.

[PJEBarlow]

I want to know that the Jedi Knight that's being the typical Jedi Knight goody-two-shoes they are is a Jedi Knight and not some guy who decided to spontaneously change his class to something radically different "just 'cuz". A game without rules isn't a game, and a RPG without adhering to some sort of role isn't a RPG. You pick a role, you play that role. It's not an appeal to tradition, it's an appeal to the genre.

 

The Jedi Knight would still be a Jedi Knight, he would only be able to change between a sentinel and a guardian and there would be restrictions on doing so.

 

I guess arguing it that way for me would be:

 

It limits my party options and changing my AC does not net me any new content.

 

I'm not sure what you're saying. How does changing your AC limit your party options, and why would you expect it to net you new content? The only thing changing your AC would do is change your combat abilities and potentially your role depending on which skill tree you choose.

 

The problem around here is everyone loves to play the "straw-man" card when their back is up against a wall.

 

I'm sorry, but my back is hardly up against a wall here. If anything I'm the one asking people to put forward a straight-forward reason why it would adversely affect the game, and nobody is able to do so. That looks to me like a position of advantage.

 

The reason I called it a straw man is because it was one; People either misunderstanding or misrepresenting the argument I made, in a way that's it's nothing like my actual argument, and then knocking that down. So far people have accused me of wanting to change my base class and all sorts, which is not what I've been asking for.

 

I understand you don't LIKE rerolling, however that's precisely what you would have to do in another MMO to get to a class that plays differently, has different abilities, wears different armor and uses different weapons.

 

Cut and dried. Advanced classes ARE the combat classes.

 

Except this isn't "other MMO", this is SW:TOR, and all you have to do is explain how this feature would be detrimental to the game instead of appealing to tradition by saying "other MMOs do it this way, it shouldn't change because other MMOs do it this way" in a circular manner.

 

I had no problem in deleting a few level 12-14 characters once i realized that the other AC was the way to go.

 

(I snipped your post, but I did read all of it. Just saving space.)

 

You had no problem with it, I have a problem with it. If you're arguing against introducing this feature then your job is to explain how it would be detrimental to the game.

 

You won't be forced to use it if you do like to grind through content you've already done to re-assign your AC, but it would be immensely useful to those of us who don't want to trace our footsteps exactly through the starter planet and capital again just to get where we were before.

Edited January 14, 2012 by PJEBarlow

[Nitewolfe]

NO.. The AC's are not close in playstyle!

[Gunryu]

I had no problem in deleting a few level 12-14 characters once i realized that the other AC was the way to go.

 

Hell, i even deleted a level 20 Sentinel because i play with two friends and one of them should have chosen a Vanguard to tank, the other is a healer Sage and i was going to DPS, but my stoned buddy misread and chose Commando instead, we realized later that it will be really needed to have a tank for doing flashpoints just us, and my friend really liked his Commando by then so i said no problem, i will go Guardian (having a Juggernaut already and liking the play style made it easy for me), just wait for me for a day or so....i don't see what the big deal is about having to start over at some point, especially at low level.

 

Advanced Classes are unique at their change shouldn't be an option.

 

 

12-14 is fine but as I said before, it's around level 30 you find out if the class is good or not, it's when you get better abilities etc.

[Cadiva]

Here is the best example I can give before I give up because you guys are too stubborn to understand a concept like subclass and classes........

 

I have a bakery, in the bakery I make cookies and decide to make chocolate chip, peanut butter, sugar, molasses, and chocolate............those are sub categories of cookies THEY ARE NOT CAKE!

 

Saying because someone wants to change from their AC it's they want to change their class is saying someone wants a piece of cake because they want to exchange for chocolate chip from peanut butter cookies!

 

But people aren't asking to change their peanut butter cookies for chocolate chip, they're asking to change it for a loaf of bread.

[Freyar]

Technically then you should ONLY be able to play a DPS or a Tank or a Healer. There should be 3 AC and 1 talent tree in each.

 

We're not talking about talent trees, I have my own opinions about those that is outside the scope of this discussion.

 

EvE Online lets you do "dual specs", you just have to invest a crapton of time into it. That makes it alright. Whereas for games like SWTOR here to have it done instantly is stupid.

 

Why is it that everyone FOR AC changes hasn't brought up how they'd want it done? I've made my compromise, where's the other side? All I'm seeing is "I want AC changes" without any suggestion as to how it should be done.

 

Urm, you're preaching to the converted, I'm not in favour of people being able to change ACs?

 

General response with the quote so people could follow it.

 

The Jedi Knight would still be a Jedi Knight, he would only be able to change between a sentinel and a guardian and there would be restrictions on doing so.

 

I don't play force characters (because come on.. it's rediculously cliche and it pretty much ruined SWG). You know what I meant.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Freyar

[JonnyFreedom]

I honestly think ONE class change is ok. Anything past that is FOTM chasing. If you get a higher level.. realize ou don't like it.... one class change beats what I did.. and that is just quit. I dont want to level another character. Marauder sucks.. I rather play a Jugg. If I can't class change.. there goes me from this game and my 15 a month. So it would have kept this customer. At this point they got me for the price of the game. But that is where it will end as I dont want to level to 50 again to do the EXACT SAME CONTENT ALL OVER.

[PJEBarlow]

Why is it that everyone FOR AC changes hasn't brought up how they'd want it done? I've made my compromise, where's the other side? All I'm seeing is "I want AC changes" without any suggestion as to how it should be done.

 

You've not been reading my posts then because I've suggested a number of things.

 

a. Make it so you can't change it after level 14-16.

 

And/OR (because a flat level cap might not be the best method)

 

b. Make it so that it incurs a reasonable fee, make the fee increase sharply for every subsequent respec.

 

I don't play force characters (because come on.. it's rediculously cliche and it pretty much ruined SWG). You know what I meant.

 

The example works for all classes, people would only be able to change their advanced class.

Edited January 14, 2012 by PJEBarlow

[aznthecapn]

If anything I'm the one asking people to put forward a straight-forward reason why it would adversely affect the game, and nobody is able to do so. That looks to me like a position of advantage.

 

 

Why does it have to be detrimental to the game to be a bad idea? There is an avenue available to anyone who wants to change their advanced class that those who don't want the option available after level 10 are happy with. Those who aren't are those who are seemingly unwilling to travel this avenue.

[Freyar]

You've not been reading my posts then because I've suggested a number of things.

 

a. Make it so you can't change it after level 14-16.

 

And/OR (because a flat level cap might not be the best method)

 

b. Make it so that it incurs a reasonable fee, make the fee increase sharply for every subsequent respec.

 

As far as option A, people are complaining that they can't change it when they're 30 or so. In short, that wouldn't solve the problem.

 

Option B just makes it like WoW's respec which would eventually become a trivial cost.

[Alarkin]

12-14 is fine but as I said before, it's around level 30 you find out if the class is good or not, it's when you get better abilities etc.

 

If that's the case, then I would be alright with AC Respec if they put the cap at level 20 AND they front-load some of the abilities so that you can get a better understanding for the class. That way you can tell by 20 what abilities you can be expected to have.

 

EDIT: Might help the pvp issue with not having any abilities as well.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Alarkin

[Azkadellia]

I understand you don't LIKE rerolling, however that's precisely what you would have to do in another MMO to get to a class that plays differently, has different abilities, wears different armor and uses different weapons.

Rubbish.

Paladin healer > prot > ret = plays differently, has different abilities, wears different armor and uses different weapons

Warrior tank > dps = plays differently, has different abilities, wears different armor and uses different weapons

Priest shadow > holy = plays differently, has different abilities, wears different armor and uses different weapons

 

dual spec each one.

[Vlacke]

As some said, ONE AC change would be probably ok at some point, and that is it, no more.

 

Changing them often as you see fit would be just unacceptable.

[BobTheTeepo]

In my opinion, it would be a nice feature but only under two circumstances.

 

A) It's only allowed to happen once, no switching back and forth.

 

B) It must be bought for a small amount of money, like 5 bucks or so. This supports Bioware so I personally prefer this one.

 

The reason I don't think people should be able to do it often, or do it lightly, is because people need to stick with their class. You know, every single time one class becomes stronger than another, everyone is going to reroll to that class (or respec if people are allowed to do so at will). People should have to stick with their choices, or ONLY do it if they're extremely certain they want to switch.

 

That's just my opinion though.

[aznthecapn]

I'm okay with people changing their AC up to level 30 or so, but not at max level. For those who enjoy raiding or competitive PvP, it leads to massive swings in class composition based on balance changes. X is weak so everyone swaps to Y. There's no definition to the choice anymore. This is something Guild Wars has. If people want this option, they need to go there. Its not a feature in SWTOR and shouldn't be (beyond "fixing" a bad decision at early levels).

[PJEBarlow]

Why does it have to be detrimental to the game to be a bad idea? There is an avenue available to anyone who wants to change their advanced class that those who don't want the option available after level 10 are happy with. Those who aren't are those who are seemingly unwilling to travel this avenue.

 

Because this is how discussion works. One side proposes a change, the side that is against this change proposes a reason why it would be detrimental to the game if it were implemented. That is how you convince people their idea is a bad idea.

 

There is an avenue available to people who want to change their advanced class, but the entire reason this question is asked over and over is because people don't see why that avenue couldn't use a change. Why arbitrarily make people re-tread over hours of content, mashing their space bar, if they will end up back in the same position as the way we propose?

 

Use logic, don't just say "DO NOT WANT!"

 

As far as option A, people are complaining that they can't change it when they're 30 or so. In short, that wouldn't solve the problem.

 

So what if we suggest making it 30, or even 50. What reason do you think this is detrimental to the game?

 

Option B just makes it like WoW's respec which would eventually become a trivial cost.

 

Just because "It'll be like WoW" doesn't make it bad, and how would the cost be trivial if it increased every time? Newsflash: The current skill tree respect system is just like WoW, do you propose getting rid of it?

 

In my opinion, it would be a nice feature but only under two circumstances.

 

A) It's only allowed to happen once, no switching back and forth.

 

Limits on the number of respecs are fine with me but I would ask for some compromise here and say at least twice, so if they are AC 1 and decide they don't like it, then respect to AC 2 and decide it's even worse, they can switch back to AC 1. But then they'd be stuck with it.

 

B) It must be bought for a small amount of money, like 5 bucks or so. This supports Bioware so I personally prefer this one.

 

The reason I don't think people should be able to do it often, or do it lightly, is because people need to stick with their class. You know, every single time one class becomes stronger than another, everyone is going to reroll to that class (or respec if people are allowed to do so at will). People should have to stick with their choices, or ONLY do it if they're extremely certain they want to switch.

 

There's nothing stopping people changing their class to the current OP class by re-rolling though, so I don't see why them being able to change their AC would be bad other than it being faster.

Edited January 14, 2012 by PJEBarlow

[Lugosi]

More straw man arguments and hyperbole.

 

You wouldn't have to resort to such utter nonsense if you could simply explain what it would take away from the game to let you respec your AC, even if it had a limit like "only up to level 16" and with a credit fee.

 

I resorted to utter nonsense because I believe the topic of discussion is utter nonsense.

As far as a simple explanation goes, well, simple explanations are useless on these forums from what I've seen. If I had certifiable proof that I was correct the opposing side of the argument would still call BS. We will just have to agree to disagree.

 

Here's a simple explanation anyway, more time sink = more money, coming from Bioware/EA perspective. Do I agree with this one? Not really. But that was about as simple as I could come up with.

 

BTW, under level 16 with a fee... it wouldn't be the end of the world. But, I think most people are asking for more than this.