Bioware: Allow Advanced Class Respec!

[SlickDevlan]

I'm not saying it's "a flaw in the game", not in the sense of a design flaw.

 

I am saying it would be a nice option to implement because there would be no downside to it, if someone rolls an AC without knowing if its combat style suits them then there's nothing taken away by them skipping grinding from 1-13 or 1-16 again for no reason.

 

See, you're looking at the wrong way. The "reason" is... you ready? The reason is... seriously, you ready? The reason is... BECAUSE YOU ROLLED A NEW CLASS AND CHARACTER! How is this concept still confusing to you? You managed to somehow roll the initial character and you claim to have managed it a second time. I just don't know if I believe you since you appear to have no knowledge of the process...

[Pyrolight]

Why would they be miserable just because they're playing the same story? Most games have the same plot/story for every class and people still play alts all the time. You don't hear people complaining about alts in other games. But if someone truely is upset about playing through the same story, they can simply re-roll any other class that has a different story. No one says they absolutely have to play the opposite AC of their original class.

 

They do it because they are capped out on their main or hate the class. Once you have done all the zones alts are not fun to level.

[PJEBarlow]

Why would they be miserable just because they're playing the same story?

 

Snip stuff about other games because we're talking about SW:TOR.

 

Maybe they just would, people are different. What would be lost by letting those people re-spec instead of grinding Korriban and Dromund Kaas again (for example's sake) like spacebar-mashing zombies.

[Dunzo]

Which is irrelevant. Whether they SHARE abilities or not does not make them the SAME thing. In DAoC every single Viking base class had the same abilities until they chose to SPECIALISE. Then they received different ones based on which Class they chose. Then, within that ADVANCED class, there were up to five different skill areas in which to place points giving a further specialisation. But no way in hell was the Berserker anything like the Warrior, the Skald anything like the Thane even though they both could hit things with a bl**y sword!

 

This isn't DAOC, it's not WoW, its SWTOR. By their own definition AC's are specializations of a single overall class. It's not something to debate, it's not opinion. It just IS.

[Cadiva]

The person I have in mind was specifically talking about Juggernaut vs. Marauder, trying to re-assure me that when you get a couple of planets in the storyline diverges.

 

I don't recall that post? There was one from someone who was talking about Sages and Guardians. The Sith Warrior storyline remains the same throughout level one to 50 whether you play a Juggernaut or a Marauder. GAME PLAY differs as you get higher in level, the game story doesn't though.

[Xhieron]

I'm in favor of nearly anything that allows players more choice. Frankly, there simply isn't a legitimate reason not to permit changing AC's that isn't based on an inappropriate conflation of social considerations with game mechanics.

 

The most frequently cited and reasonable-sounding objection goes something like this: "If you can switch AC's at level 50, I'll be forced to group with 50's who don't know how to play their classes." This begs the questions, first, who is forcing you to group with any individual in the first place, and second, whether the absence of AC changes protects you from playing with bad pugs (hint: it doesn't). To the first, flatly, you can decide not to group with someone if you don't want to. If someone's going to lie about how new he is to his class, then he would probably lie about other things to maintain a spot in the party under other circumstances. Are we really under the illusion that there's no scrutiny when it comes to making recruiting decisions to guilds, raids, and high-end parties? To the second, on the off chance that in your haste to get a pug rolling you find yourself saddled with a recent AC convert who indeed is no good, is the task of ejecting and replacing that individual so daunting? If so, how is it any different from the task with respect to someone who's just a bad player in general? I'll grant that the frequency of these circumstances may increase, but I would likewise suggest that if that's your primary concern, you have nothing to lose by seeing a mechanism implemented and tested on the appropriate test server in order to provide data with which to actually validate that claim.

 

Regrettably, most of the other objections are rooted in an idealization of MMO culture that's either outdated ("Classes are rigid, hard-locked playstyles with no overlap whatsoever, and someone who can play Class X is completely incompetent and disqualified with respect to Class Y") or elitist ("Convenience is the devil's work").

 

I'm frankly not interested in patronizing maxims about decisions having consequences. You're not arguing that someone who impregnated his girlfriend should be a father to his child; you're arguing that someone who clicked a box on a video game--purchased for recreation and being paid for monthly--and then at some indeterminate future time decided it was a mistake, should have to repeat anywhere from five to hundreds of hours of the game in order to correct that error, or else no longer enjoy the game or quit playing outright. I have a job and a family if I want consequences to go with my decisions. When I sit down at my computer in my valuable free time, I'm not looking for consequences: In-game, roleplaying consequences that tell a story? Sure; hell, that's part of what makes SWTOR attractive. Waste-my-personal-recreation-time consequences? No thanks; I'll pass on that.

 

Moreover, I'm not interested in the equivalent of "f- you" or "go to hell" thinly disguised as argument or solutions. Many of us did not have the advantage of playing many hours during the beta, and many of us don't have the time to devote--or the interest, in many instances--to leveling up multiple characters substantially. We're dependent on the community at large to inform us how a given advanced class performs at a given level.

For example, I understand that a Madness Assassin is a very late-blooming spec. On paper, it looks like something I'd be very interested in. However, I have no way of knowing for myself how the class will perform until I get my Assassin up to level 40 or so. If I find, at that point, that despite their best efforts other players haven't been able to convey to me accurately what the class is like, I may find myself extremely dissatisfied, and at that point regret my decision to play an Assassin at all (since, based on the same information, it looks like the Madness Sorcerer is a lot closer to what I was looking for). By way of example, the ability to change my AC at this point is ideal, merited, and an excellent way for BW to keep me engaged as a player and happy as a customer.

Many of the responses here amount to dressed up equivalents of "Well, sorry you chose wrong; f- you. Reroll." Is that fair? Maybe. Indeed, the weight of MMO experience tends to inform that investing hours of gameplay into a character doesn't guarantee future satisfaction in that character by any means. But it's not right. There is a fundamental inaccuracy in the analogies to WOW, EQ, or any other previous MMO, and that's the product of a failure to consider the class story--which is the fundamental hallmark feature of this game. The story is why I'm playing at all. Asking someone to reroll a different class in WOW is less consequential because, in essence, all classes share the same story in WOW. There's no real unbalance in the consequences. Asking someone to reroll a different AC in TOR, on the other hand, is essentially different from rerolling a different class outright. You're asking the player to repeat identical content that he would not repeat with a genuine alt.

 

Does allowing someone to change AC's beyond level 10 have risks? Sure. Moreover, it likewise opens up a door for player freedom and customization that is unusual for MMO's, although not without precedent (Rift being the premiere precedent). But the arguments I see here against it typically amount to glorifications of "I don't like this." If your argument to not have AC changes amounts to nothing other than you think someone should be penalized for making a bad choice with a lack of information, there's simply not much there. If you're worried about social consequences--well, you may be on to something. But I would submit that the risk that those consequences might materialize--if they do at all--is vastly and overwhelmingly outweighed by the benefit that this feature would confer on players who could take advantage of it.

 

The current AC structure in SWTOR is designed to maintain traditional MMO party composition mechanics while attempting to insure that necessary party roles are likely to be available when needed, at times to the displeasure of some parts of the community who, for various reasons, believe that, for example, certain classes shouldn't heal or tank. Allowing AC changes would fulfill the same end of making sure that players could assemble a party with the requisite roles filled without simultaneously depriving a player of his ability to complete other content or, more importantly, experience the story--the lynchpin of the game's experience--in the way he or she wants and without undue duplication, repetition, and grind. The fact that the developers have expressed a desire for this feature to have a cost attached to it, if anything, reflects a middle ground between the stances expressed in this thread. While I disagree that that's necessary, I'm willing to defer.

 

Ultimately, this is about choice. Prohibiting a player from making a choice with the benefit of the most possibly available information makes the choice less meaningful, and the argument that players should be forever locked into a class at level 10 gains more traction from gaming tradition than it does from common sense. If I change, for example, from a Powertech to a Mercenary at level 45, you are correct that there is a learning curve ahead of me, and that I have a long way to go to mastering my new class. That fact, however, does not alone make it a bad feature. Would it tend to suggest additional features? Sure. I can see that tutorials would be wise, and allowing other players to see how much total experience (within certain parameters, lest it become a server first pissing contest) a given player has logged in his current AC would be a perfectly fair indication of whether that player knows what he or she is doing, and I would likewise advocate that people forming groups should have the benefit of all available information when making choices also. In-story, there's no reason that a Sith who has mastered defense could not upon study and reflection learn when and how to use two lightsabers, for example.

 

Give players the ability to make choices and gain the benefit of those choices and the power to correct errors. In fact, I would even advocate that players should be able to change AC's at low cost and, perhaps not at will, but as frequently as their circumstances should require. It appears, from the bulk of the arguments here, that the only thing we really have to lose is the satisfaction of those members of the community who have a sense of entitlement with respect to how others experience the game. That's a price I'm willing to pay.

[PJEBarlow]

I don't recall that post? There was one from someone who was talking about Sages and Guardians.

 

That's a shame, because I don't remember their name and really don't feel like drudging through 4-5 pages just to find their post. It's what they said though, that I essentially should stick with my Juggernaut because its story diverges from that of the Marauder on later planets.

 

This turns out not to be true, so the matter is settled.

[Dunzo]

@Xhieron

 

+1 for smart.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Dunzo

[Jswizzle]

I have to LOL at this thread.

 

Does any game let you switch classes after you picked them?

[Aeovan]

my 2 cents

 

put in AC respec, limit it to lvl 15, free to change between the 2

 

you get to try both classes, or if you screw up and pick the wrong one you can fix it

 

simple enough right?

[Cadiva]

This isn't DAOC, it's not WoW, its SWTOR. By their own definition AC's are specializations of a single overall class. It's not something to debate, it's not opinion. It just IS.

 

In YOUR opinion and yet the opinion of plenty other people would be that there are EIGHT Classes within SW:tOR and not the Four you're claiming. It would also seem that BioWare think there are eight different classes as well as they've made each one different once you hit level 10.

[Dunzo]

I have to LOL at this thread.

 

Does any game let you switch classes after you picked them?

 

Class

 

Advanced Class

 

 

Learn the difference please. Game Info tab at the top ^ will help you.

[Dunzo]

In YOUR opinion and yet the opinion of plenty other people would be that there are EIGHT Classes within SW:tOR and not the Four you're claiming. It would also seem that BioWare think there are eight different classes as well as they've made each one different once you hit level 10.

 

"Not the four [i'm] claiming?"

 

Go here: http://www.swtor.com/info/holonet/classes

 

4 per side. Thx.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Dunzo

[Jswizzle]

Class

 

Advanced Class

 

 

Learn the difference please. Game Info tab at the top ^ will help you.

 

I know the difference. You didn't answer my question.

 

What RPG in the world lets you do anything like this? You pick a class, you play it. If you don't like it you reroll.

[Cadiva]

Class

 

Advanced Class

 

 

Learn the difference please. Game Info tab at the top ^ will help you.

 

Still missing the basic fundamental difference that class != Advanced Class.

[Dunzo]

I know the difference. You didn't answer my question.

 

What RPG in the world lets you do anything like this? You pick a class, you play it. If you don't like it you reroll.

 

Because nobody here is asking to reroll the class, only the advanced class aka specialization. You don't appear to know the difference.

[Cadiva]

"Not the four [i'm] claiming?"

 

Go here: http://www.swtor.com/info/holonet/classes

 

4 per side. Thx.

 

I don't need to go there, it says

In the decades since the Great War began, a careful study of professional classifications, or classes, has identified several archetypes of great interest. Individuals belonging to these classes gravitate towards key roles in history-making events. Because of the likelihood that representatives of these archetypes will shape the future of the galaxy, a closer analysis of each class is warranted and is posted here for further study and discussion.

 

So, if we're getting down to Semantics, BioWare have described within the professional Classes, a variety of different Archetypes.

[Vlacke]

NO for advanced class change.

Why?

Because it would be like a change of class completely, changing mage to a rogue (just an example).

This is not a simple talent respec, this is an entire CLASS change that is talked about here.

[Freyar]

TEXT

 

To make it nowhere near as long to read... (Seriously, that could have been a lot more concise.)

 

• I didn't play the beta, so I wouldn't have known what was "good".
  
• If I wanted consequences, I'd stay in Real Life.
  
• I play for enjoyment, therefore anything that doesn't entertain me is a waste.
  
• Comparisons to Rift, WoW, EQ, DoaC are not appropriate for this discussion.
  

 

To which I say, there are consequences in MMO since an MMO involves more people than just the one player. Leveling isn't hard. Hell, even just doing Space Combat every day does fairly well.

 

"I don't like" the idea of switching AC's, but I did give a compromise.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Freyar

[PJEBarlow]

I know the difference. You didn't answer my question.

 

What RPG in the world lets you do anything like this? You pick a class, you play it. If you don't like it you reroll.

 

I don't know why people keep using this argument, it's an appeal to tradition fallacy.

 

This isn't other games, this is SW:TOR. Following your bizarre logic someone might say "they should never have voiced all the quests because no other game has done it, name one".

 

Let's stop talking about other games. Of course this would be something other games don't do, it would be a new feature, your only task is to explain what it would take away from the game that would damage it.

[Lugosi]

So you want people to be miserable leveling the same class with the same story just because they found at level 30 the AC they picked sucked? I am going on a hunch and going to say you don't own a business, because in business the name of the game is keep customers happy not miserable.

 

I suppose your right.

 

We should probably all start out at lvl 50, with endgame gear, max crafting, and max valor rank because doing stuff in an mmo is so miserable. Besides, I paid for the game, I shouldn't actually have to play it if I don't want to. I would rather just sit on the fleet and look cool without having to do anything. This is what will make me happy, I WANT IT NOW.

[ibrac]

But I don't care, I am not enjoying the Juggernaut play style, so why do you want me to sink even more time in to a character I don't enjoy just because you claim it'll be a completely different experience than what I'd get from a Marauder. And I doubt this claim, by the way, I actually suspect I'll go to all the same places and do all the same quests unless I switch to a different base class.

 

I just don't want to do the same 13 levels again, that's why I'm not even playing a Warrior now. What does the game lose?

 

 

Sorry, you are complaining about 13 levels? I thought maybe you got to 25 or 30+, gave it an honest effort and then decided it wasn't what you wanted to play. Common, 13 levels takes what 8-10 hours? I'm at lvl 43, and will get to 50, and plan to roll an alt because I don't care for the Smuggler/gunslinger (sorry crouching to fire bugs me) Sheesh, people have no "stick with it" anymore, Git!

[Daemonjax]

While I agree with the "no" answer, your reasoning kind of leaves the people that play the game for the storylines annoyed, since this would require playing the same content over again just to change one decision.

 

The above argument isn't as strong as people think.

 

If players choose the opposing faction for their other AC, then they get a whole new story. The content's already there.

 

Most players that really are playing for the story shouldn't mind having characters on the opposing faction. If you don't like the stories, that's subjective... but don't act like BW is forcing you to play the same pve content twice just to play the other AC for your favorite class.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Daemonjax

[PJEBarlow]

I suppose your right.

 

We should probably all start out at lvl 50, with endgame gear, max crafting, and max valor rank because doing stuff in an mmo is so miserable. Besides, I paid for the game, I shouldn't actually have to play it if I don't want to. I would rather just sit on the fleet and look cool without having to do anything. This is what will make me happy, I WANT IT NOW.

 

More straw man arguments and hyperbole.

 

You wouldn't have to resort to such utter nonsense if you could simply explain what it would take away from the game to let you respec your AC, even if it had a limit like "only up to level 16" and with a credit fee.

 

Sorry, you are complaining about 13 levels? I thought maybe you got to 25 or 30+, gave it an honest effort and then decided it wasn't what you wanted to play. Common, 13 levels takes what 8-10 hours? I'm at lvl 43, and will get to 50, and plan to roll an alt because I don't care for the Smuggler/gunslinger (sorry crouching to fire bugs me) Sheesh, people have no "stick with it" anymore, Git!

 

Many like you have made your argument but, just like them, you've failed to explain what it would take away from the game if I didn't do 1-13 (or even 1-16) over again.

 

Go on, what would it take away from the game?

 

What is so important about doing levels 1-13 again, like a spacebar-mashing zombie and knowing every single quest and encounter so it would be no challenge, that I must spend a couple of hours doing it again?

 

If your only answer is something along the lines of "because I say so" or "because that's how other games do it", don't bother replying.

Edited January 14, 2012 by PJEBarlow

[Keihryon]

This isn't DAOC, it's not WoW, its SWTOR. By their own definition AC's are specializations of a single overall class. It's not something to debate, it's not opinion. It just IS.

 

You are right, but you keep using WoW as a comparison. Why can't we use the game that it more directly imitates "in terms of class specialization"?

 

In DAoC; Armsmen, Paladins, and Mercenaries all get the same basic skills, Slash, Crush, Pierce.

 

Paladin - specialized ability - Chants

Armsman - specialized ability - Polearm

Mercenary - specialized ability - Dual Wield

 

Armsmen and Paladins, also get shield spec, and 2-hand weapon spec

 

You can't tell me that they are still "just" their base class and should be able to respec between them at any point.

 

Again, please stop using wow as a basis for comparison, as DAoC is far more relevant.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Keihryon