1.1 Changes for Jugg

[Deathmark]

We don't need anymore abilities. We already have WAY to many. If anything though I guess I wouldn't mind Invincible being baseline and replacing that talent with something else in the Immortal tree.

 

There are plenty of fixes that could come through the pipes that I wish I'd see.

 

1) Sundering Assault having no CD so I can get rid of assault on my bar, Mercs can spam tracer as fast as they want, (Alacrity not only reduces cast time but also reduces the GCD for the casted ability) and get their armor debuff up right away, while we have to wait for 4.5s CD completely ridiculous.

 

2) Make the Vengeance bleeds deal a % of the damage the attacks deal this would def help with scaling issues everyone is talking about.

 

3) Or if you don't want to change the bleeds, make the Rampage talent, on proc, reduce the channel time of Ravage so the spec can be a bit more mobile as a melee DPS.

 

4) Fix channels in general I am so sick and tired of Leaping in and hitting Ravage or Force Choke to see the animation start and no damage occurs, the CD doesn't fire but that's besides the point, if this happens with a Ravage I actually get stuck in the animation and can't cancel it so I'm a sitting duck dealing zero damage.

 

5) Smash should deal damage at the point where it ends not where you started the animation. If I'm right on someones *** hitting them with Sundering Assaults and I pop Smash it won't hit because the damage radiates from the point where the animation started not where it ends. Who the hell designed that?

 

6) Armor is worthless, wearing heavy armor means nothing when there are 50%+ armor pen abilities available. Acid Blade perma 50% for the Scoundrel/Operative, with 5 Stacks of Tracer and High Velocity Gas Mercs/Commandos get 55% perma, Duplicty procs grant 50% armor pen on Backstab for Assassins/Shadows, and then the limited amount of Elemental/Internal resistances available makes Periodic effects cut right through us.

 

I'm sure there is more, but that was all I could spit out in a short amount of time, errands to run!

 

I really can't believe the BW devs are so out of touch that they thought the proposed fixes were addressing the obvious power disparities with this class. I'm playing this game because I wanted to play a force user, a jedi or sith warrior, and they end up making the best part of star wars the gimp classes.

 

If they don't correctly address this problem soon, I'll be done with this game once I hit fifty. That's not meant to be a threat, I'm sure the game will survive without me, but I doubt I'm the only one who wanted to play a star wars game as a jedi or sith, who will be turned off by said classes relative weakness.

 

BW made a great game here, but to gimp the most popular class and then to start trying to fix a gushing chest wound with bandaids is a really bad idea. I'm guessing they were worried about people not wanting to play the other classes so they intentionally made these classes weaker.

 

In terms of pvp, I see the same problem in most games - melee is at a severe disadvantage vs. ranged, and in this game it's worse than most. If it's harder to engage in melee, then melee based toons should do far more damage than ranged once they do get into melee. Also, melee based toons should have clear survivability advantages, yet they don't, and the few they have in this game are wiped out or useless in pvp. The worst part of this deal is that the people running this game don't seem to see the massive disparity that exists.

[Barzarel]

Makes no sense to have a ability that pushes opponent away, take force jump off cooldown, to fix a kiting issue, would been much better to tie that to either Force scream or saber throw, probaly best would be force scream, seeing as if it would be saber throw, most players would learn what kite range to use to be exactly within range, to disable saber throw.

 

But as a said in another post, had they done that, maybe taken some off cooldown of force scream or just buffed its damage(damage increase issues at least for immortal be fixed, but as force scream sorta universal would buffed others to), boost the amount of damage sonic barrier migitate(fixed some immortal survivability issues).

 

In all adjusting force scream would fix great deal of issues.

[MumbaUmba]

I for one believe this is a great change(Endure Pain) used it a lot in PVP and PVE as well sometimes. This is in fact insta heal to let you fight for 10-15 secs more, yes it will drop down back to 1 hp, BUT still you wont die and either your enemy is dead or you can use other ability like push or choke or whatever.

 

Not so sure about resetting charge on push, it's good but actually i rarely had an issue when i was kited and had push available but charge on CD.

 

EDIT and BTW you can tell almost instantly who is good with his Juggy and who is not, if someone thinks ENdure is bad well it explains why this person might think Juggy is bad.

Edited January 16, 2012 by MumbaUmba

[Noth]

I for one believe this is a great change(Endure Pain) used it a lot in PVP and PVE as well sometimes. This is in fact insta heal to let you fight for 10-15 secs more, yes it will drop down back to 1 hp, BUT still you wont die and either your enemy is dead or you can use other ability like push or choke or whatever.

 

Not so sure about resetting charge on push, it's good but actually i rarely had an issue when i was kited and had push available but charge on CD.

 

You do realize that a dot will kill you right. Most classes have dots they can put on you. getting reduced to 1 hp is a death sentence and has killed me more time than I could count in pvp

Edited January 16, 2012 by Noth

[MumbaUmba]

You do realize that a dot will kill your right. Most classes have dots they can put on you. getting reduced to 1 hp is a death sentence and has killed me more time than I could count in pvp

 

Yes dots are dangerous and yes it will kill you, so what you had your time to kill the other guy - you failed. And in fact there are only few classes with dots in PVP obviously sorc, some bh and some op that's it, and they are rarely used since it's alpha strike for pvp not slowly chipping dots.

[Noth]

Yes dots are dangerous and yes it will kill you, so what you had your time to kill the other guy - you failed. And in fact there are only few classes with dots in PVP obviously sorc, some bh and some op that's it, and they are rarely used since it's alpha strike for pvp not slowly chipping dots.

 

Other cooldowns mitigate damage. Endure pain mitigates it by giving a bigger pool, it then removes that mitigation, but unlike other defensive cooldowns it does direct damage to yourself at the end. that is a poor defensive cooldown as it doesn't actually help your survivability.

 

Oh and marauders (major amount of damage is dots as annihilation), Most juggernauts (Force crush, choke, impale, shatter, scream), assassin have a few dots as well, most operatives have dots (acid blade, lethality), snipers have dots. A good player always throws a dot or two on a class that has a cooldown that can reduce them to 1 hp and onto stealth classes.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Noth

[MumbaUmba]

Other cooldowns mitigate damage. Endure pain mitigates it by giving a bigger pool, it then removes that mitigation, but unlike other defensive cooldowns it does direct damage to yourself at the end. that is a poor defensive cooldown as it doesn't actually help your survivability.

 

Oh and marauders (major amount of damage is dots as annihilation), Most juggernauts (Force crush, choke, impale, shatter, scream), assassin have a few dots as well, most operatives have dots (acid blade, lethality), snipers have dots. A good player always throws a dot or two on a class that has a cooldown that can reduce them to 1 hp and onto stealth classes.

 

I am speaking from personal experience I never seen marauder dots on me - guess what nobody plays annihilation for pvp I guess. Yes I do get dots sometimes and yes I had the situation when these dots killed me after endure pain finished but it is rare in pvp.

 

The point of Endure Pain is to give large hp boost for decent amount of time paired with good mitigation it does usually provide enough time to get the job done or at least you may get healers attention or whatever. We already have hp buff in form of force scream post effect in immortal.

[Noth]

I am speaking from personal experience I never seen marauder dots on me - guess what nobody plays annihilation for pvp I guess. Yes I do get dots sometimes and yes I had the situation when these dots killed me after endure pain finished but it is rare in pvp.

 

The point of Endure Pain is to give large hp boost for decent amount of time paired with good mitigation it does usually provide enough time to get the job done or at least you may get healers attention or whatever. We already have hp buff in form of force scream post effect in immortal.

 

Every game I play I end up with atleast 3 dots on me unless it's 1v1 then it' usually 1 or 2. Oh and the durability problem was never with immortal, it's with the dps trees where you lack the mitigation to make 30% extra hp last without blowing saber ward as well.

 

Like I said good players will throw their dots on a jugg that blows endure pain, because their cooldown will kill them unless they have a healer on them. A cooldown that can kill you is a crappy cooldown unless it comes with much more than a temproary 30% health buff. I seriously cannot count how many times a dot killed me because endure pain wore off.

[K_osss]

Is it just me or is everyone except for a couple guys complaining about Endure Pain (Enure) because the health is lost, when it's OBVIOUS that it should be used at the beginning of a fight so that you effectively have 130% of your health pool? Their choices are wait 10(15sec) for it to wear off or be forced to do damage to health that is going away anyway. Seems stupid to use it at the end of a fight as it doesn't do you near as much good. I don't know why there is this much discussion about it and I'm excited they halved the cooldown!

 

/end rant

[Noth]

Is it just me or is everyone except for a couple guys complaining about Endure Pain (Enure) because the health is lost, when it's OBVIOUS that it should be used at the beginning of a fight so that you effectively have 130% of your health pool? Their choices are wait 10(15sec) for it to wear off or be forced to do damage to health that is going away anyway. Seems stupid to use it at the end of a fight as it doesn't do you near as much good. I don't know why there is this much discussion about it and I'm excited they halved the cooldown!

 

/end rant

 

Or they do damage as normal, the fight drags out to the end of endure pain and then suddenly see a health loss and thus have endure pain not matter in the fight at all. Used at the end it at least gives you a chance to kill them before you die. Even then it's still crappy.

[K_osss]

Or they do damage as normal, the fight drags out to the end of endure pain and then suddenly see a health loss and thus have endure pain not matter in the fight at all. Used at the end it at least gives you a chance to kill them before you die. Even then it's still crappy.

 

I don't play a jugg. Does Endure Pain not work like the following? Start fight at 10,000 hp and activate Endure Pain go to 13000 hp. They do 7000 damage in 10 sec (untalented) resulting in your hp dropping to 13000-7000=6000? That's how those type skills work in every game I've ever played.

[Noth]

I don't play a jugg. Does Endure Pain not work like the following? Start fight at 10,000 hp and activate Endure Pain go to 13000 hp. They do 7000 damage in 10 sec (untalented) resulting in your hp dropping to 13000-7000=6000? That's how those type skills work in every game I've ever played.

 

You have 10000 and pop endure pain. You get 13000 HP. they do 7000 in 10 seconds you have 6000 hp left. With the end of endure pain you then lose 3000 hp leaving you at 3000 hp. If they did 10000 damage in 10 seconds you'd have 3000 hp left and the end of endure pain would leave you at 1 hp. See how it is a problem now?

[LordExozone]

I don't play a jugg. Does Endure Pain not work like the following? Start fight at 10,000 hp and activate Endure Pain go to 13000 hp. They do 7000 damage in 10 sec (untalented) resulting in your hp dropping to 13000-7000=6000? That's how those type skills work in every game I've ever played.

 

No, in your example you start at 10,000 hp, you activate Endure Pain and thus go to 13,000 hp. They do 7000 damage in 10 seconds, resulting in your health dropping to 6,000 hp. Then Endure Pain's duration runs out, dropping your health by a further 3,000 hp and leaving you at 3,000 hp.

 

In this situation, using Endure Pain had absolutely no use. The only benefit it brings is when you are about to die, then it gives you a bit of extra time to either win the fight and live, or get a healer to save you. Or (usually) you die anyway:)

 

 

 

Patchnotes are very underwhelming, they need to do a QA check on the talent trees (especially Immortal) and streamline them. The Immortal rotation is just sick (way too many situation abilities, I literally had not enough hotbar buttons for everything as the left hotbar slot space is used by my companion's hotbar).

 

They also need to review how defenses work in PvP, as it makes absolutely no sense that all my +defense and +shield I invest in on my gear doesn't work against most player attacks (only against white +weapon damage hits). It doesn't make any sense that +crit on gear works normally in pvp, +power works normally, yet my +defense and +shield only works like 10% of the time...

[Banivisa]

Is it just me or is everyone except for a couple guys complaining about Endure Pain (Enure) because the health is lost, when it's OBVIOUS that it should be used at the beginning of a fight so that you effectively have 130% of your health pool? Their choices are wait 10(15sec) for it to wear off or be forced to do damage to health that is going away anyway. Seems stupid to use it at the end of a fight as it doesn't do you near as much good. I don't know why there is this much discussion about it and I'm excited they halved the cooldown!

 

/end rant

 

The problem with that is that's not how Endure Pain currently works. Most think it works that way, the tool tip suggests that it works that way but it doesn't.

 

Endure Pain adds in your 30% buff at hitpoint number 1. What this means is that no matter how much health you lose you will lose that 30% always.

 

Example you buff at the start.

10k + Endure Pain 3k = 13k

You take 5k damage your left with 8k Endure Pain ends you drop to 5k and you wasted the ability.

 

Now 10k health - 9k damage = 1k

Use Endure Pain +3k = 4k you use med pac + 3k = 7k you take 5k dmg

Endure Pain ends 2k health - 3k Endure Pain = 1hp

 

I have a thread in the general SW forum addressing this problem. I believe it's coded wrong and either bugged or broken it should be add that 30% at the end of your health pool so they are usuable anytime as absorption hps. As it works now it's a temp heal that should only be used before you die.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Banivisa

[Bang-A-Rang]

The ability works like it should right now. Every temp health buff like this for warrior classes in other games works exactly the same. It's basically an "Oh ****" button, I'm at 1k HP I better do something, pop it and you live a bit longer, hopefully long enough for the healer to bring you back into the green, or long enough so the fight ends before you run out of HP.

[Banivisa]

The ability works like it should right now. Every temp health buff like this for warrior classes in other games works exactly the same. It's basically an "Oh ****" button, I'm at 1k HP I better do something, pop it and you live a bit longer, hopefully long enough for the healer to bring you back into the green, or long enough so the fight ends before you run out of HP.

 

No it doesn't. I can name 4 games where the buffed hps are added to the end of your health. Name 1 game where the buffed health is added at HP 1.

 

I'll bet any game you name adds it at the end of your health. Hell the ability doesn't even work as described in the tool tip.

[dcjoker]

I don't play a jugg. Does Endure Pain not work like the following? Start fight at 10,000 hp and activate Endure Pain go to 13000 hp. They do 7000 damage in 10 sec (untalented) resulting in your hp dropping to 13000-7000=6000? That's how those type skills work in every game I've ever played.

 

The reason endure pain is terrible is because it doesnt act as a buffer it acts instead as a temporary bonus that is completely refunded when it expires.

 

In the example above you would end up with absolutely no benefit from endure pain. The only time it matters is if you take enough damage that eould otherwise kill you but instead dips into the extra hp from endure pain and even then you will be left with 1 hp upon its expiration. Basically its about as effective as to survivability as taking a multivitamin is to treating terminal cancer.

[Bang-A-Rang]

No it doesn't. I can name 4 games where the buffed hps are added to the end of your health. Name 1 game where the buffed health is added at HP 1.

 

I'll bet any game you name adds it at the end of your health. Hell the ability doesn't even work as described in the tool tip.

 

What are you talking about? Do you play a Juggernaut? You pop Endure Pain, you gain 30% more MAX health, so lets say I only have 1,000 HP left out of a 10,000 HP pool, when I pop Endure pain my Max health goes up to 13,000 hp and I get healed for 3,000 HP jumping to 4,000 HP left, after the 10s expire I go back to 10,000 Max hp losing the 3,000 I gained, if that loss would take me less than 1 then I just drop to 1, this is actually a bonus that other games don't have because in most when the effect fades if you don't have enough health you just die.

 

This is exactly how Last Stand for Warriors in WoW worked, and my Berserker in EQ2 had a similar ability, but when the zerkers wore off he just died if he didn't have enough health.

 

The ability does exactly what the tool-tip says it does.

[Noth]

What are you talking about? Do you play a Juggernaut? You pop Endure Pain, you gain 30% more MAX health, so lets say I only have 1,000 HP left out of a 10,000 HP pool, when I pop Endure pain my Max health goes up to 13,000 hp and I get healed for 3,000 HP jumping to 4,000 HP left, after the 10s expire I go back to 10,000 Max hp losing the 3,000 I gained, if that loss would take me less than 1 then I just drop to 1, this is actually a bonus that other games don't have because in most when the effect fades if you don't have enough health you just die.

 

This is exactly how Last Stand for Warriors in WoW worked, and my Berserker in EQ2 had a similar ability, but when the zerkers wore off he just died if he didn't have enough health.

 

The ability does exactly what the tool-tip says it does.

 

It still makes it a very poor cooldown unless you always have a healer available. Any defensive cooldown that can basically kill you is a crappy defensive cooldown. If it gave us high damage resistance and upped our damage for that time It would be a nice last stand ability and actually be worth it to the other specs.

 

The idea with buffing the skill was to increase overall survivability and this will not do it.

[Bang-A-Rang]

I agree that it isn't the right ability to buff I was just stating that it works exactly like it's supposed to, and I don't understand why people think it should work otherwise.

[Banivisa]

What are you talking about? Do you play a Juggernaut? You pop Endure Pain, you gain 30% more MAX health, so lets say I only have 1,000 HP left out of a 10,000 HP pool, when I pop Endure pain my Max health goes up to 13,000 hp and I get healed for 3,000 HP jumping to 4,000 HP left, after the 10s expire I go back to 10,000 Max hp losing the 3,000 I gained, if that loss would take me less than 1 then I just drop to 1, this is actually a bonus that other games don't have because in most when the effect fades if you don't have enough health you just die.

 

This is exactly how Last Stand for Warriors in WoW worked, and my Berserker in EQ2 had a similar ability, but when the zerkers wore off he just died if he didn't have enough health.

 

The ability does exactly what the tool-tip says it does.

 

Knew you'd use WoW and that's not how last stand works. Last stand only removes the buffed hps.

 

So in you example you are at 1k pop it gain 3k = 4k now you take 2k damage leaving you at 2k, buff ends you lose the remaining 1k of health from the buff leaving you at 1k health. With Endure Pain you lose the 3k health leaving you at 1hp. See the difference?

 

Who cares that it buffs my maximum health when you only use the ability at low health and your about to die. If you use it any other time then right before death you wasted it. If they wanted an ability like that they would have copied WoW cheat death at least that would be useful.

[ShoteR]

Knew you'd use WoW and that's not how last stand works. Last stand only removes the buffed hps.

 

So in you example you are at 1k pop it gain 3k = 4k now you take 2k damage leaving you at 2k, buff ends you lose the remaining 1k of health from the buff leaving you at 1k health. With Endure Pain you lose the 3k health leaving you at 1hp. See the difference?

 

Who cares that it buffs my maximum health when you only use the ability at low health and your about to die. If you use it any other time then right before death you wasted it. If they wanted an ability like that they would have copied WoW cheat death at least that would be useful.

 

from my opinion , they tried to make a Last Stand kind of skill to SW/JK , but they have completely fail ,

 

the solution would be to remove that health loss "debuff" at the end of the endure pain , with one exception , after the endure pain wears off , the health pool could not be more than your max health , so basically is like a healing spell which make much more sense as a defensive cooldown than the endure pain that we have right now.

 

u have 10k hp , u take 5k damage , u use endure pain ur life goes to 8k , endure pain wears off , and ur life would stay 8k

 

another example

 

u have 10k hp , use endure pain , go to 13k hp , endure pain wears off , ur HP would go back to it's original max health which is 10k

[crazyjeffy]

Honestly I think it'd be better if Force Push's added effect was to do double damage if you knock someone into an object/wall.

 

That'd be fun as hell.

[bliapis]

Tbh the should change that each time you Force Charge, it should reduce the cooldown of Force Push.

 

the Push is quite a nice knockback-short stun and we need more immobilizers like that.

[Genocidalx]

Funny again it comes down to players not knowing how to play their class and use their abilities.

 

These are all good buffs are they enough? Maybe, maybe not we'll know by the end of the month. Seriously those of you complaining about enduring pain cd getting cut in half?

 

Noobs you're using it wrong!

 

Unless you're running with a healer Enduring Pain is not a defensive cd it's an offensive one!

Those hps should never be around when it ends, those a the first hps you should be losing in a fight. You use it right before they burst you, you use it while you're still above 70% health it's free hps that you use as mitigation to avoid their burst. You use it just as you use cc to stop someones burst, it should damn near always be on cd if your not running with a healer.

 

Learn to use your abilities then complain. All these complaints about it killing you, well guess what; you were already dead before you used it.

 

This is the best and most rational post in this thread up to this point. I had to cut off my reading just to reply here. Endure Pain is a fine ability, and should be abused, especially when solo, often and in conjunction with your mitigation abilities. The 50% CD reduction is a good thing.

 

Also, the changes of resetting the CD on leap? Also good.

 

Both buffs are good and are on the right track. On the right track only? Yes, because more needs to be done. However, I think we need to stop looking at specs, trees, modifying, adding and removing abilities and look at the philosophy of the warrior itself.

 

There have been a couple of good posts prior to mine, but I'm too lazy to go back and quote them. A warrior who is in your face should be doing serious damage, as someone else stated. Melee should always do significantly more damage than range when it is in a position to DPS, just by nature of games. It's an uptime vs downtime issue. We don't really have the option to kite, and even if we could, there's little/no advantage to doing so. If we're "tanks," we are, by definition, purpose and design, meant to be in the melee - not strategically skirting retaliation.

 

With that said, we need to fix the innate qualities of the warrior class. My interests lie more in the tanking art. It's a common modern theme that we give squishies the highest DPS in the game, kiting options, and a plethora of damage mitigation abilities which, when combined, rather mitigate the need to even have the tank archetype. As someone else pointed out, with so many abilities penetrating armor, I feel really disheartened that I decided to play a Jugg in this game. I thought I would (incorrectly in hindsight) be playing the most dependable damage mitigator in the game with the best ability to manipulate fights in both PvP and PvE. Much theorycrafting has disproven this.

 

We need higher returns on our armor rating and defense rating. Our innate defensive capabilities are lacking. But, it's still for nothing if everyone is bypassing our most valuable asset with internal damage.

 

Metrically speaking, there are some gross imbalances across the board. Some classes need to be brought down, and/or some classes need to be brought up in dramatic ways. Not just a couple of cooldown reducers. The very principles which guided the class designs themselves were flawed.

 

Sidenote: No longer really relevant to the discussion.

 

I'm of a mind that true balance is what you 1:1 ratio when player skill is removed from a game. It's not uncommon to see Sorcs running in warzones, finishing with 350k healing and 150k healing. As a juggernaut, I'm nowhere in the ballpark of either of those numbers in DPS or Protection. I feel like a lemming in PvP. I spawn, guard, run around like a lemming, trade my life so that someone may live a little longer, respawn, repeat. And really, I'm not truly mitigating ANY DAMAGE whatsoever, I'm merely redistributing it.

 

I understand that since I am a tanking breed Juggernaut that my DPS has to suffer for it, but at the moment I feel like I'm giving a lot for nothing.

 

So, what's the point of the Jugg/Guardian?