SWTOR feels more like a theme park than a world

[Gestas]

Maybe you should realize that the reason why WoW was so successful is because it was playable by people who aren't masochists and don't have the luxury of spending 16 hours a day playing a game (and losing those hours when their character dies)

 

It was only a matter of time before a player who is new to the MMORPG genre would come in and make the claim that wanting a challenging open-ended world means you're a masochist.

[Kayden]

Maybe you should realize that the reason why WoW was so successful is because it was playable by people who aren't masochists and don't have the luxury of spending 16 hours a day playing a game (and losing those hours when their character dies).

 

 

That's rich, especially considering that I have a job, 2 kids and a mom to go with them.

 

You didnt have to spend 16 hours a day to play mmo's before wow, WoW's success is obvious, but the reasons you imply are the usual ignorant nonsense.

[DarthKhaos]

NOT... EVERY... GAME... IS... FOR... EVERYONE...

 

Why don't people get this. You want an MMO that has the mass player numbers. We're talking bout in the millions. Then you are not gonna get games that shun people who do not want to spend an ungodly amount of time doing crap.

 

There are games that are considered "successful" that has the things you want. But it doesn't have those ground shaking numbers. It may be the best thing since slice bread but because of things like unnecessary time sinks, harsh death penalties and steep learning curves that some may find fun does not appeal to the majority.

 

Just because they like the game doesn't mean you have to also.

 

 

I am still waiting for a space MMO that I would like to play. You appear to be still waiting for a Star Wars MMO you'd like to play. You got 2 options. Suck it up or move on.

[Raani]

It was only a matter of time before a player who is new to the MMORPG genre would come in and make the claim that wanting a challenging open-ended world means you're a masochist.

 

If by "challenging" you mean something which causes you to lose 8-10 hours of play, then yes, you are a masochist. Perhaps you don't value your time as much as I do, but I see no justification for losing a few days' worth of progress for one mistake.

 

If you can't understand what a valuable currency time is, you have greater problems than I do being "new to the MMO genre." "New," of course, is pretty subjective, since I've played WoW since Vanilla. Games like EQ didn't interest me or others like me because we had things to do with our lives.

[ArkhamNative]

I agree with a lot of what the OP says. Games these days tend to be "dumbed down" or "easy mode". Perhaps part of the reason is that many of us "old timer" gamers now have jobs and offspring, and can't devote 4+ hours/weekday and 24+ hours/weekend.

 

As far as seeing other players, it is less interesting an encounter. Mobs are almost all soloable (definitely companion duo-able) and, like you said, areas are designed for a particular set of quests (i.e. there are no crossroads). Once those quests are done, the game shuffles players off to other areas or planets.

 

But to cut to the general conclusion, games nowadays are "mass market". They are designed for little to no thinking required, and overwhelmingly easy effort and frequent rewards. Actual challenge takes time and concentration, and a good game can intensely frustrate a player until an obstacle is overcome. That's a negative experience that only a niche portion of the mass market will tolerate.

 

And from another angle, there are a ton of games and game companies. Making games easy and short means customers need to buy more frequently to stay occupied. A good game that takes months cuts into their profits. Perhaps not necessarily applicable to MMOs, but it seems to be the current trend. Another one is higher-priced PC games now that customers are used to $60 (£40) console game prices (which, I believe, are higher to cover a royalty to the console maker).

[recsa]

Maybe you should realize that the reason why WoW was so successful is because it was playable by people who aren't masochists and don't have the luxury of spending 16 hours a day playing a game (and losing those hours when their character dies)

 

Actually, the theme park games are way more time sinks than sandbox games, WoW and its raid-or-you-are-nothing philosophy its a game for hardcore players more than SWG was, in a sandbox game you can adjust your role in the game to your playstyle and still get out of it everything you need, in games like WoW, theres only one way, raid to get the good stuff.

[Vis_Vires]

Maybe you should realize that the reason why WoW was so successful is because it was playable by people who aren't masochists and don't have the luxury of spending 16 hours a day playing a game (and losing those hours when their character dies).

 

For your benefit, here's the harsh reality: people who spend 16 hours a day/7 days a week playing MMOs don't have the buying power of people with jobs (except those with very affluent parents or those who inherited some money). You may be able to afford the initial game and subscription, but you will not spending much down the line on additional services. Also, your subscription isn't worth the loss of hundreds of thousands of other subscriptions from people who find hardcore games unpalatable.

 

Videogame companies are not in the business of making nerds happy; they are in the business of making money. You don't make massive profit by catering to a small demographic with limited buying power. You make your profit by catering to as many people as possible, including those with limited time to play.

 

Anyone who plays 2-4 hours a night isn't going to put up with death penalties which involve massive credit losses and/or level losses, being unable to complete a dungeon because the area is overcrowded or others are griefing, and spending the vast majority of their playtime running between quest hubs.

 

They want to log on and accomplish something, whether it be gaining 1-2 levels, finishing a quest area, successfully completing a dungeon, etc.

 

Since we derive our sense of accomplishment from real-life activities and we deal with enough setbacks and negativity at our jobs, we don't need pain and "work" mixed in our entertainment. If a game requires me to do ridiculous amounts of grinding for the smallest things or sets me back considerably for the smallest mistake, I'm not going to buy it. Period.

 

You're playing the wrong MMO, I'm afraid.

 

You are pretty much right. The thing is, back in "the good old days" I was single, still had a job, a good social life etc, certainly not a nerd, but i managed to pile hours upon hours of gametime in a week. Maybe a little bit of a nerd. These days, with a wife and 2 kids, work, trying to get to the gym and play for my local sportsteam, I play maybe... 8 hours a week. I probably wouldnt be suited to that style of MMO now.

 

Still, I think there must be some middle ground here somewhere. Somewhere between, write your life off for the next 12 months to get to max level and the "easy mode" mmorpg's we have now.

[Raani]

You are pretty much right. The thing is, back in "the good old days" I was single, still had a job, a good social life etc, certainly not a nerd, but i managed to pile hours upon hours of gametime in a week. Maybe a little bit of a nerd. These days, with a wife and 2 kids, work, trying to get to the gym and play for my local sportsteam, I play maybe... 8 hours a week. I probably wouldnt be suited to that style of MMO now.

 

Still, I think there must be some middle ground here somewhere. Somewhere between, write your life off for the next 12 months to get to max level and the "easy mode" mmorpg's we have now.

 

I know what you mean. The demographic you were in (buying power thanks to a job, but also more free time to spend playing) has a limited shelf-life. Most people end up getting in a serious relationship or getting married. By the time you're in your mid-30s, you're either working a lot to get ahead, you're saddled with kids, or doing both at the same time.

 

Realistically, people 30+ have the most buying power and the least amount of time to spend on entertainment. If you want to attract them, you have to give them a reason to stick around.

 

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Regarding WoW being more of a grind, I think that highly depends on your playstyle. The fact that it can cater to multiple playstyles is another reason why they are successful. If SWTOR follows the same path, I don't see why it wouldn't be very successful in the long run.

 

The wrong assumption in this case is that everyone plays to get the best gear possible. This is absolutely not true. If that's what you want, then you'll have to put in the time and effort for it. But there are things to do for people who are less interested in min-maxing - alts, crafting, playing the auction house, running normal-mode content, non-competitive PvP, etc.

 

By having multiple tiers of content, an MMO can cater to a greater number of demographics and maximize their subscriptions. Completely alienating the largest demographic doesn't make business sense.

 

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Bottom-line: I can't tell you that what you want is wrong and if I was mean before, I apologize. But you are not going to convince the devs that a formula which has proven successful needs to be changed to accommodate the wishes of a minority.

 

Instead of trying to change these "ezmode" MMOs, you should be looking for MMOs which fit your playstyle.

[Blochead]

Ultima Online..... nough said.

[Gestas]

Perhaps you don't value your time as much as I do, but I see no justification for losing a few days' worth of progress for one mistake.

 

First, let's not get into the "who values their time more" discussion, since we both play MMORPGs. And, technically, we'd both be investing the same amount of time, it's just that players would progress slower in a more challenging game. Which is a good thing in my opinion since it makes accomplishments more meaningful and it doesn't take, you know, 2 days to hit level cap. Because once you hit level cap, what else is there to do? All of the skills and talents are already unlocked, so you're left with just grinding dungeons over and over again.

 

And I don't know of any MMORPG where you lose a few days of progress from dying once (maybe eve online?), nor am I advocating such a penalty.

 

But dying and then being able to respawn right on top of where you died is pretty weak, don't you think? When you get to that point, you might as well just get rid of the death penalty altogether. Maybe that will be the next step for MMORPGs?

 

since I've played WoW since Vanilla.

 

That means you're new. You didn't play EQ back when it was known as Evercrack.

 

You've probably never even played EQ once (or ultima online), so all your opinions about it are based on hearsay.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Gestas

[DarthKhaos]

You are pretty much right. The thing is, back in "the good old days" I was single, still had a job, a good social life etc, certainly not a nerd, but i managed to pile hours upon hours of gametime in a week. Maybe a little bit of a nerd. These days, with a wife and 2 kids, work, trying to get to the gym and play for my local sportsteam, I play maybe... 8 hours a week. I probably wouldnt be suited to that style of MMO now.

 

Still, I think there must be some middle ground here somewhere. Somewhere between, write your life off for the next 12 months to get to max level and the "easy mode" mmorpg's we have now.

Finding that middle ground is hard. Then there's the beloved game forum community that complain about every single thing. Game is too boxed in, game is too big, the universe is not one whole big zone, too much lag & framerate issues, players loot stealing, I don't like sharding. The list goes on and tend to contradict each other. Things that help performance may not help with immersion unless you got some monster of a system on both the client and server end.

 

When you cater to masses there will always be things one set likes and another set doesn't. I stand by my statement. Not every game is for you. If SW:TOR wasn't want I wanted to play i wouldn't be here complaining that it's not. I'll just not be here.

[aimbotcfg]

Nostalgia is bad when it goes unchecked. Everquest was not the better game.

Vanilla WoW was not bug free and did not have droves of endgame content.

Walking to the river to fetch a pail was not better than turning on a tap.

Edited January 13, 2012 by aimbotcfg

[Gestas]

Nostalgia is bad when it goes unchecked. Everquest was not the better game.

 

Do you have any evidence to back up your claim that it's "nostaliga talking" when people say they want a more realistic open-ended and challenging game?

[Gestas]

Walking to the river to fetch a pair was not better than turning on a tap.

 

To use your own analogy, going out to fetch your own water would surely make you appreciate it more.

[aimbotcfg]

Do you have any evidence to back up your claim that it's "nostaliga talking" when people say they want a more realistic open-ended and challenging game?

 

Those games don't exist any more. Because they werent challenging, they were time sinks. There is a difference between challenge and accesability. Ikaruga is challenging, it only has 5 levels. Having to sink a boatload of time into a game in order to get something regardless of skill =/= challenge.

 

Its the same as people being bleary eyed for vanilla WoW. It wasn't more challenging, it was less user friendly.

 

I can understand you wanting to get given things because you have played for longer than x person despite him possibly being a more capable player, but please don't try and justify it as anything other than that or nostalgia. Its not a want for a challenge, its a want for a timesink bereft of challenge.

 

Nostlgia is bad when it goes unchecked.

[aimbotcfg]

To use your own analogy, going out to fetch your own water would surely make you appreciate it more.

 

No, I wouldn't fetch my own water, I would use my tap, then I would watch the moron next door who went to the river to get a pail out of bloddy minded ignorance die of heat exhaustion on the way back while i laughed at him from my pool, listening to my ipod. Mod cons, not the devil.

[DarthKhaos]

To use your own analogy, going out to fetch your own water would surely make you appreciate it more.

 

DUDE! You do know you're supporting his statement. Fetching water makes you appreciate the TAP more. Trust me I know.

[iamzombie]

I played SWG from day 1, if you think walking across 5 or 10 virtual kilometers of a desert to get to mos espa was fun or rewarding in any way, that explains a lot about your OP.

 

Don't like fast travelling? Don't use it.

 

Want getting places to take longer? Don't use a speeder. Turn off sprint. Hell, turn off RUN.

 

Don't feel there's enough death penalty? Don't use medical probes. Hell, don't use medical stations, sit there and WAIT for someone to rez you. In fact, let's make it more difficult, send me half of your credits when you die.

 

Most of the things you've complained about are features that you can easily NOT use. Don't try making this into SWG, which as much as I loved it, was deeply flawed from day 1.

 

Bioware made it clear they were concentrating on story and immersion when they announced this game. If you somehow got the impression it was catering to the "hardcore" gamer, you really must come out from under that rock you've been living under from time to time.

[aimbotcfg]

DUDE! You do know you're supporting his statement. Fetching water makes you appreciate the TAP more. Trust me I know.

 

Made the point better than I could lol

[Kayden]

The whole issue with this game is that the story is all there is, and it's hurting other parts of the "mmo" idea.

 

Take classes as an example, one I havent seen before.

 

 

Obviously AC was an afterthought, they surely wanted more than 4 classes per faction, but creating 8 would be twice the work on voice acting and class stories, so they cut corners and created the AC, and what do you get? Soldiers running around, beating up people with their rifle, that's a prime example of a game that is suffering from the main idea behind this game, the story.

 

The only problem is when you hit 50, the story ends and you kinda feel like something is missing, well alot, the game just seems like a freak of nature mmo, without the voice acting you got yourself a pretty terrible game imo, I'll agree that the questing is nicely done and a fresh breath of air, but I never played mmo's for the quests.

 

And that's just where this game fails, atleast for me, they took something that WoW improved on, for the sake of avoiding the EQ/SWG kinda of grind, and made it the main part of the game, and then they really cut corners on everything else, that usually makes up an mmo.

 

 

I know this has been said many times, and I do recognise that this is essentially an mmo, but for the story part, there are better alternatives when it comes to single player games, and there are better mmo's for the whole mmo gaming part.

 

I was excited for this game like a child waiting for christmas, no joke, and I swore to stick with it no matter the amount of bugs, but I werent prepared for a game that were this lacking when you saw beyond the nicely done quest chatter, and it's not really something they can change, I don't care about the bugs, they'll get them under control and I couldve lived with it, but the essence of a mmo, to me, is severely lacking, and can't just be patched in.

 

 

It is however great that others enjoy the game, and I do hope it will do well, but I had to cancel my sub, I simply didnt enjoy it, when I play an mmo I want to play one but to me this arent a real mmo, it's too much like GW, even though I enjoyed it more than this.

 

 

 

 

On a positive note, you'll be rid of people like me on the forums, in a few days, when the free month runs out

[Teslorian]

It's a question of whether you want a mass marketed product or a cottage game. *most* people will not abide losing 2 hours worth of XP for dieing when they only play a couple hours per night. So...I'm going to log in, die or worse lag out and die and spend the whole rest of my night getting my xp back OK.

 

I too would like MMOs harder and actually this game is slightly harder in a way than WoW (I mean other than being forced to use a brutal UI and no mods). At least you have real mob variation as you travel around that can catch you from time to time.

[ageNtreachery]

Let me start off by saying that I do like SWTOR (at least more than any of the other new MMORPGs out there); and I plan on playing it for awhile. I'd give the game a 8.7 out of 10.

 

So what do I mean by a theme park? ............

 

WoW is really just a dumbed down version of EQ with better graphics, UI, and controls.

 

Hi, welcome to the forums captain obvious. BW said at the start they were building a theme park and not an open world.

[Gestas]

Those games don't exist any more.

 

What games don't exist anymore? EQ? EQ is still going.

 

Because they werent challenging

 

If they're not challenging, then what do you call being able to die and then respawn on top of where you died? Brain dead?

 

they were time sinks.

 

Most video games are, especially MMORPGs.

 

There is a difference between challenge and accesability.

 

Sure there is. But accessible is a PR term used in the MMORPG industry to describe making a game easier. Like when you make death penalties almost nonexistent. Is that making the game easier or making it more assessable? Technically, it's both. You're making the game easier which in turn makes it more assessable.

 

Its the same as people being bleary eyed for vanilla WoW. It wasn't more challenging, it was less user friendly.

 

Well, again, vanilla WoW was dumbed down, which made it more "user friendly."

 

Giving every character god-mode would also make the game more "user friendly."

 

I can understand you wanting to get given things because you have played for longer than x person despite him possibly being a more capable player

 

That's typically how all MMORPGs work, even the newer ones. The players who invest the most time typically have the most money, items, etc.

 

Nostlgia is bad when it goes unchecked.

 

Well I've played EQ recently and still have more fun playing it than any of the newer MMORPGs.

Edited January 13, 2012 by Gestas

[Gestas]

DUDE! You do know you're supporting his statement. Fetching water makes you appreciate the TAP more. Trust me I know.

 

I didn't say fetching water makes you appreciate tap more, although I'm sure that it would.

 

But having to fetch your own water would make you appreciate water itself more. You'd also probably use less of it.

 

Or to use another analogy, if you had to hunt your own food, then you would appreciate your food more too. It might even make it taste better (in your mind).

 

Having to work for things make the rewards all the sweeter. This isn't a difficult concept to grasp...

Edited January 13, 2012 by Gestas

[MadMalag]

That means you're new. You didn't play EQ back when it was known as Evercrack.

 

You've probably never even played EQ once (or ultima online), so all your opinions about it are based on hearsay.

 

This statement makes it hard to take you seriously, sir. You assert that Vanilla WoW was the beginning of easier MMOs. You also assert no one who did not play EQ could know about a hard MMO because all they've played are the 'newer easier games.'

 

You're essentially saying we don't know how to have the 'right kind of fun' because we don't want challenging games.

 

Death Penalties are meant to be punishments for failure, and some people would prefer to limit the impact of their failure. Losing money and items is one thing, losing experience is quite another. In games based on the Wow formula where the bulk of Exp comes from unrepeatable quests this would be unnaccetable to the majority.

 

It's hard to articulate what I really want to say in polite terms but it does boil down to: If you want a bigger challenge you may just have to find a better game.