Asnine Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 Maybe we should make something clear for thos people who only played counterstrike and think mmo's should be the same. THIS IS A MMORPG. That being clear, EQUIPMENT AND GRIND ARE MENDATORY. Don'T play this game if you don't want the math and gearing behind that. Play an onlineshooter, dota or bloodlinechampions if you want perfect balance without stats. It would be a total waste of programming if you make a game for years with thousands of possibilities to entertain yourself and then put all away and make a perfect balanced pvp part of it where nothing you did in this game matters anymore. MMO'S are about progressing. Ofc with pvp is always skill involved and so people do easaly get frustrated when not winning by pure playstyle. But srlsly, DEAL WITH IT or play something else. I am so sick of reading what all the people who bought this game expected and are now dissapointed... W T F then don't buy it for buck sake. I find this game resembles briliantly the idea of star wars and there has never been a better attempt to do this, and still only complaints. No matter where i go complaining seems to be oour special power. What's mendatory?
iphonemilk Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 No, just go work on getting your gear better. If you want a FPS with all the same characters wearing the same things then go play that type of game. So many of you BRAINWASHED bads.. it's hard to deal with... So why even fight back against you Zombies? I'll just sit back and watch you Boys Sausage circle jerk eachother thinking you're "amazing at pvp" while you've got better gear then the person you just killed. That's much more of a greater use of my time.. at least i'll get some enjoyment/amusement out of that then trying to fight back and convince you your brainwashed/and wrong.
Wiggletphyre Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) Many people are complaining about Expertise and I agree. I would take it further and require everyone to wear a the same class-specific suit of generic non-bonus armor when PvPing. This would take item mismatches completely out of the mix and any difference between the abilities of players would be determined by the skill of the player. Because sorting out your gear isn't part of the game is it >.> So many of you BRAINWASHED bads.. it's hard to deal with... So why even fight back against you Zombies? I'll just sit back and watch you Boys Sausage circle jerk eachother thinking you're "amazing at pvp" while you've got better gear then the person you just killed. That's much more of a greater use of my time.. at least i'll get some enjoyment/amusement out of that then trying to fight back and convince you your brainwashed/and wrong. Nope, your indoctrinated by the league of superscrub PvPers that just want to lolzerg trough PvP without thinking about it... Edited January 12, 2012 by Wiggletphyre
Zaskaszh Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 Many people are complaining about Expertise and I agree. I would take it further and require everyone to wear a the same class-specific suit of generic non-bonus armor when PvPing. This would take item mismatches completely out of the mix and any difference between the abilities of players would be determined by the skill of the player. I'll go you one better (although I agree with the premise of your argument). Take away all PvP rewards. All of them. Commendations, valor, items, titles, everything. Then let people kill each other for the sake of killing each other. At best, let them loot one single item from the inventory of each person they kill. You think that's not enough justification? You noobs need to go read about this guy named Fansy, from the old Zek servers in original Everquest days. He would have taken all you "I-earned-mah-gear-respect-mah-skillz" WoWtards, wadded you up and tossed you into the swamp like yard trash. And he PvPed strictly for the fun of it. More people remember him than will ever remember the best WoW "PvPer". Now stop speaking about yourselves as if you really cared about fighting other players more than you cared about some sort of status symbol. http://www.notacult.com/fansythefamous.htm
iphonemilk Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 Because sorting out your gear isn't part of the game is it >.> Nope, your indoctrinated by the league of superscrub PvPers that just want to lolzerg trough PvP without thinking about it... You didn't even make any points?... You can't defeat the logic of this skill based debate. Let's discuss how the NFL player has been retrofitted with a Cyborg arm that allows him to throw passes 20 feet father then the other NFL players Cyborg arm which is of an Older version and doesn't throw as far. Fair? Even NASCAR does this and has Strict rules on what is allow to be put inside of engines. This goes back to a post i made awhile back about gear templates, which had some support by enlightened NON tunnel visioned person's of the MMO PvP community, and also had BADS like you clamoring to 2-3 shot people b/c you have better gear. Nascar allows customization's to occur within the engines but places rules /limits on what you're allowed to put in there. It wouldn't be fair at all if some Driver/team was allowed to put inside some NASA like Rocket engine and the other teams could NOT AFFORD it b/c they have not progressed through the racing circuit yet . You people are delusional on what the DEFINITION of Skill is, ADMIT IT. Just ADMIT that you want to have better gear then the person you're up against.. that's all i want. For YOU TO ADMIT THAT FACT, that you want an advantage. If you are incapable of doing so, then you're in denial.
iphonemilk Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 I'll go you one better (although I agree with the premise of your argument). Take away all PvP rewards. All of them. Commendations, valor, items, titles, everything. Then let people kill each other for the sake of killing each other. At best, let them loot one single item from the inventory of each person they kill. You think that's not enough justification? You noobs need to go read about this guy named Fansy, from the old Zek servers in original Everquest days. He would have taken all you "I-earned-mah-gear-respect-mah-skillz" WoWtards, wadded you up and tossed you into the swamp like yard trash. And he PvPed strictly for the fun of it. More people remember him than will ever remember the best WoW "PvPer". Now stop speaking about yourselves as if you really cared about fighting other players more than you cared about some sort of status symbol. http://www.notacult.com/fansythefamous.htm 100% agree and back in the Day I remember Fansy as well. Ultima Online PVP Was about FUN AND SKILL and so was EQ 1. These kids who keep using the Call of duty point as a defense? clearly are the ones who are NEW to MMO PvP. it shows right when they use that point.
Zaskaszh Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 100% agree and back in the Day I remember Fansy as well. Ultima Online PVP Was about FUN AND SKILL and so was EQ 1. These kids who keep using the Call of duty point as a defense? clearly are the ones who are NEW to MMO PvP. it shows right when they use that point. I know. See, I get to call them "kids" and laugh at their perspective that PvP started with WoW because, well, I'm 45 years old. When I play in warzones in SWTOR, I get a kick out of it just because I get to help my side (hopefully) win, and have fun fighting other players...WITH A LIGHTSABER!!! I'm not trying to build up some sort of reputation for myself, so I don't get all frustrated if there's no system in place to provide me with ways to showoff to other people.
Drunkwolf Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 This thread does a wonderfull job showing how ignorant most MMO players are these days. Thanks to WoW and all of its clones being the only games most of these young MMOers have played, they now think if you want a skilled pvp game you need to play a FPS. sorry kids, but skilled pvp was around long before your first MMO WoW and all of its clones after. I know its hard to believe, but the games made back in the days were actually better than todays games ( except the graphics of course ).
iphonemilk Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 I know. See, I get to call them "kids" and laugh at their perspective that PvP started with WoW because, well, I'm 45 years old. When I play in warzones in SWTOR, I get a kick out of it just because I get to help my side (hopefully) win, and have fun fighting other players...WITH A LIGHTSABER!!! I'm not trying to build up some sort of reputation for myself, so I don't get all frustrated if there's no system in place to provide me with ways to showoff to other people. yup. this ^ Of course now a days all these E-sport elites want an Armory system to show off their Ratings which they earned.. BY HAVING BETTER GEAR in the first place.. further sucking them into the illusion that they did it all with "skill" While at the same time shooting down the true definition of skills with the Call of duty argument point and SAYING THEY HAVE SKILL... it's mind boggling.. PvP used to be creative and fun... now it's YOU NEED TO DO THIS, in order to ACQUIRE THIS.
iphonemilk Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 This thread does a wonderfull job showing how ignorant most MMO players are these days. Thanks to WoW and all of its clones being the only games most of these young MMOers have played, they now think if you want a skilled pvp game you need to play a FPS. sorry kids, but skilled pvp was around long before your first MMO WoW and all of its clones after. I know its hard to believe, but the games made back in the days were actually better than todays games ( except the graphics of course ). Agreed 100% /signed. Most of these Kids heads would be *Locked down* on my UO porch outside of Vesper.
Anastasius Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 Its another version of a time sink to keep you playing and paying. You have to grind it baby. Bioware thanks you for your $15 a month.
Rivianchief Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) Now I can only feel sorry for you, seeing all that anger and frustration bothering you to voice your opinion in such a way. Your strange way of protecting your ethical failure does not divert from the fact, you clearly intended your wording to be an insult - which is so wrong on many layers, but it is the internet and you are frustrated, I know. Back on topic, even if there is randomness in the process of pvp gear acquisition, it is only a matter of time until you'l eventually have everything you want/need. Please note, that I do not like the rng in it either, but seriously there is no unfairness in it at all. Where does all that entitlement and fear of missing out on something come from. This game is how old? Not even a month and you already complain about not having everything someone else has. If this was the kind of game that aims at a competitive crowd, I would second your demand of having everyone on equal level - but this is an mmo, where the focus does not lie on competitive pvp, but rather, where everything in the end more or less boils down to character progression and social gaming in various ways. As others pointed out - This is not the game you are looking for. Why do you think I insulted you? I just deny the fact that I meant to insult handicapped people in general. You see, I am so stereotypical, that I assume that every person I respond to on this forum is a healthy (physical and mental) one, with an IQ over 75. (Perhaps this is what I am doing wrong?) People have dysfunctions, that is how this world works. I am sorry for those who want to be felt sorry for and I am impressed by the ones who don't rely on others pity. I couldn't manage to live life without being able to use the complete function of my body. I deeply respect people who manage that! Asking if you are "handicapped", because I assumed you do not suffer a mental disability, was just to underline the fact that your way of thinking is illogical and irrational. If you feel insulted because of this, that seems to be more your problem than mine A person that would be really handicapped (mentally) wouldn't know the difference and the irrational thought would be excused. Which leads me to the question why you think its an insult if I ask you if you are handicapped? Perhaps its you who seems to be discriminating, unintentionally of course? You wouldn't feel insulted if I would ask you if you had broken your knee recently now would you? But I suppose after your previous statement in which you called me "frustrated" (which seems like Internet-psychology to me) I am sure you ran out of reasonable arguments and therefor shouldn't have said anything in the first place. to the topic at hand: So? Basically you are just saying I was right? Because I never cried about the randomness of getting gear. I just said, your comparison won't fit with the ability delay problem. This is a PvE game and it won't be balanced. I just said its hypocritical to ***** about the one thing and tell others to shut up when they bring something up that leads to the same aim: fairness in pvp If you agree that this game is not made for esport and that its not to be taken seriously (competitive wise) it would, again, be irrational to say that an ability delay of 0,025 sec (example) makes a difference but not having the same gear in pvp doesn't. Since both is not really changeable by the player (AD is a game mechanic and getting gear is pure luck) you can't say one matters more than the other. Also your argument concerning that you will eventually have your gear won't hold. If you compare the MMO's (like wow for instance) you will clearly see that new gear is implemented so fast in the game that you rarely have time to enjoy the one you just farmed for. Meaning that the gearing up-circle in these games never stands still. Edited January 12, 2012 by Rivianchief
Zaskaszh Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 http://www.notacult.com/guide_trollshaman.html How many of these kids would even be able to wrap their brains around this level of complexity in playing a character?
Izini Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 I do not believe gear makes that big of a difference, not between a win or loss. The real problem is the pace, the damage to health ratio. Level 50's in all Champ or better against eachother is way too fast, its just stupid. Being as fast-paced as it is, strongly favors burst damage classes. Which is why we see these classes being the new favs among pvp'ers, ecspecially the operative and scoundrel since they are the highest burst. With burst being extremely powerful this means with good gear, biochem, and the right relic means all they have to do their high burst abilities then someone is dead very quickly. This is done with little thought or skill, using only a few abilities to "pwn face". Therefore, people doing this actually think they are using skill and will tell you everything is fine and that maybe you should learn to play.
Paganini Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) Many people are complaining about Expertise and I agree. I would take it further and require everyone to wear a the same class-specific suit of generic non-bonus armor when PvPing. This would take item mismatches completely out of the mix and any difference between the abilities of players would be determined by the skill of the player. Guild Wars 2. This game will never have the type of PvP you described. No point in wasting your time asking for it. Edited January 12, 2012 by Paganini
Torleen Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 So, my first and still in my opinion best MMORPG was Star Wars Galaxies. PVP was impacted by gear, but not in the way that we see here. There were a few factors. 1. Player crafter based economy. No random loot drops, no farming player kills to get your gear. All you had to do was save up money and buy what you needed, which you could do through solo PVE if you had to. (One exception was some really bad DOT weapons, but those were nerfed eventually) 2. The gear even when you had it only made up for about 10-15% of your PVP effectiveness. And even if you were way outgeared, you did not get stamped out like a cigarette your opponent was finished with. These two things allowed everyone to at least enjoy PVP even if they were losing. And you could participate in a meaningful way even if you were not geared at all. Gear was an edge that helped, but it was an edge, not an "I-WIN!" button. What I am noticing here is there are people who qualify for the term "Pee-bottle". Now, if you don't know what a Pee-bottle is, watch the documentary "Second Skin" which is about obsessive gamers, who sometimes quite literally will pee in a bottle rather then get up to go to the bathroom. (This is not a myth, I have even seen evidence of it from a former roommate of mine.) They feel that "More time spent doing repetitive mindless tasks means that I should win, all the time." The kinds of games these people like are basically a scheme. He who grinds most, wins. They encourage this. And the reason why is their self-esteem is directly linked to doing well in these games and seeing their character's names high up on the score boards. The fact that it required nothing resembling skill is not something they will generally face. In fact, these people will brag about how "leet" they are. And are generally really quick to troll anyone who points out that they are a delusional loser who is "winning" because they happen to have less of a life then the people they are defeating. Some of them are almost cult-like in the way they behave about it. People who can't win need to "Learn to play" even if they are playing a bugged class that is not working right, or even if their opponents are playing an OP class that is not working right. There is almost no limit to how far these people will sometimes take the delusion. I still remember to this day during full beta on the Revan server for a while there was a bug that was causing only Sorceror's and Sages to do proper damage in PVP. It was not known this was the issue at the time. But the community recognized there was a problem and complained about it to be met with these types of personalities trolling and insulting them with the various "Learn your class, nothing wrong with our class! You just need to learn to play!" crap. Finally a developer came forward and exposed that the reality was that the bolster system was not properly bolstering weapon damage. So classes who's damage was based on weapons were not doing damage properly. Did these people who endlessly smeared and insulted the people who pointed out there was a clear problem with the damage that Sorceror/Sages were doing fess up and apologize? Of course not. And in fact, some of them continued to argue that the damage they had been doing was just fine the way it was. I had done a poll called "how gear intensive do you like your PVP?" with several options. The votes were overwhelmingly in favor of gear not being more then 10 to 20% of your overall effectiveness. I guess the question is this, will PVP really evolve into "he who grinds most wins!" if so I don't see how they are going to make this into an E-Sport at all.
Asnine Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 Guild Wars 2. This game will never have the type of PvP you described. No point in wasting your time asking for it. GW2 goes too far in the other way imo.... from what I understand of it, in PvP it just gives everyone the same gear, correct?
Natharon Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 Or you can get geared and stop ************?
Zaskaszh Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 Or you can get geared and stop ************? You wouldn't happen to be a pitiful PvPer who absolutely needs that gear crutch, would you? Naaaaaah, couldn't be...
wtfnonamefree Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 - snip - . Dude, seriously, this is getting out of hand. 1. It's not that I felt insulted. You insulted handicapped people by using them as an insult. When you try to debate that, I cannot help it, because we both know the truth and I cannot help it if you choose to defend your faulty behaviour. 2. I did not say you are right - because you aren't. Players cannot change the delay, while they can change their gear. RNG makes it a matter of time not of possibility. 3. This game is not intended to be an e-sport. I'd like it to be, but it isn't. I deal with it, you should, too. 4. The delay in this game is not a matter of fractions of a second - I'd be glad if it was. Let me take a guess and assume you aren't affected by it. 5. I am sure, that the rng factor in gear acquisition will have been changed by the time a new gear cycle will be implemented. 6. I'll leave you with your misconceptions now - this is only forum clutter by now.
Zatoni Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 See my sig. And no, GW2 doesn't go too far in the other direction. There's still gear progression in their RvRvR area, but they don't want to deal with the headaches of stat creep for the stupid carrot of illusory improvement and content gating. You don't become statistically better than other players, you differentiate yourself by your skill/trait builds and how you play your character in their warzones. It's like Starcraft or Magic: The Gathering versus... well, an imitation of WoW style PvP. Two of these things are more seriously competitive than the other.
filipesantana Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 See my sig. And no, GW2 doesn't go too far in the other direction. There's still gear progression in their RvRvR area, but they don't want to deal with the headaches of stat creep for the stupid carrot of illusory improvement and content gating. You don't become statistically better than other players, you differentiate yourself by your skill/trait builds and how you play your character in their warzones. It's like Starcraft or Magic: The Gathering versus... well, an imitation of WoW style PvP. Two of these things are more seriously competitive than the other. again...sigh...for thyat to be POSSIBLE...we would ALL HAVE TO FIGHT NAKED WITH no stats LIGTSABARZZZ for it to be fair and equal to everyone. and no PVE egar would be allowed either. hint:...........GO PLAY FPS!!!!! MMOS>>>>>>>>>>>GEAR GRIND IS WHAT PAYS OFF TO BLIZZARD/BIOWARE/etcetcetc...so cry(and be wrong) all you want..expertise is NOT geting removed lol. GW2 will be a pure pvp mmo...wich si diferent form wow and swtor..so its understandable the difference.
salamanderx Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 Is expertise hard to get? Once they put in more world pvp these 1-1 matchups will mean less than being caught in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Izini Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 this whole e-sport talk in a mmorpg forum is pretty funny... no one seems to know what it is
Rivianchief Posted January 12, 2012 Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) Dude, seriously, this is getting out of hand. 1. It's not that I felt insulted. You insulted handicapped people by using them as an insult. When you try to debate that, I cannot help it, because we both know the truth and I cannot help it if you choose to defend your faulty behaviour. 2. I did not say you are right - because you aren't. Players cannot change the delay, while they can change their gear. RNG makes it a matter of time not of possibility. 3. This game is not intended to be an e-sport. I'd like it to be, but it isn't. I deal with it, you should, too. 4. The delay in this game is not a matter of fractions of a second - I'd be glad if it was. Let me take a guess and assume you aren't affected by it. 5. I am sure, that the rng factor in gear acquisition will have been changed by the time a new gear cycle will be implemented. 6. I'll leave you with your misconceptions now - this is only forum clutter by now. @ 1 If you didn't feel insulted why would tell me that I insulted you in the first place? You are the one who accuses me of insulting handicapped people because I asked you if you are handicapped. Apparently only you know the "truth" because I fail to see it. By that rationality I would insult everyone who is a politician by asking anyone on the street if he is a politician. It doesn't make any sense. Just because I used a word doesn't mean you should throw around with political correctness, when it is not needed. I love that some of you kids have a "non-written internet forum guide" laying around at home, allowing you to create a psychological profile of every forum user that exists. @ 2 RNG on gear might make it a matter of time, but then I could say that ability delay is one as well. Its not like its not going to be fixed, because so far people cry like kids about it (which is alright) but you still have no right to tell someone else, who demands the exact same thing (fairness in pvp) he should go play something else. Especially when you admitted it yourself: Its not an e-sport game @ 3 I don't know what's wrong with you, but you keep putting things in my mouth. When did I ever complain about the fact that this is no esport game? Never. Stop making things up @ 4 Apparently it is a matter of only that short amount of time and yes I am masterchief. Again, you seem to dwell in your little fantasy world, having prejudices written all over your face with nothing else to back it up @ 5 We will see, but then again, thats not the point. @ 6 Yes please leave, you are getting annoying and I feel the need to report you because accusing me of things I didn't say nor do is called "harassment" Edited January 12, 2012 by Rivianchief
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