Phandros Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 I completely echo the comments of my old DAoC friends and enemies. The DAoC style of realm vs realm combat was excellent, truly fun and gave the end-game purpose aside from running tired old content going for that next purple. I joined this game for Star WARS.... and thus far, I haven't seen any. One of my 3 friends already quit for lack of pvp options. (FYI, we hate huttball, it ruins the immersion) Oh and also... space combat pvp please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stranger_LDR Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 DAOC is the only REAL PvP MMO What about the most popular internet spaceship game EVE online? it's even harder mode than daoc... but has to suit the taste tho. try it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iSay Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 For the same reason EA forced Mythic into making the mediocre game WAR when it could have been so much better. They find this great company called Mythic and purchase them. Mythic made what was empirically one of the best PvP games ever - DAoC. EA thinks "Great! We got a team of PvP experts working for us!" They then proceed to tell that team "No no no, no all that stuff you did which was awesome, that's not popular. No, games like WoW are popular. Copy them. Guild controlled stuff? Motivation to Open World PvP? No no no you guys don't understand, people want WoW, that's not in WoW. People want to grind midlessly for shiny things, whether it be in PvE or PvP...like in WoW. Just make WoW, OK? God you guys have no idea how to make a product that will sell, all that stuff you're talking about sounds nothing like WoW." And thus mediocre games like WAR and SWTOR are born, when they could have been so much better. The rush for the almighty dollar and the desire to appeal to 100% of the MMO playerbase rather than making an epic product to appeal to a smaller playerbase crushes all innovation and passion in this industry. Well said. Let's hope they learned a lesson from WAR, if we wanted to play WoW we'd play WoW! Gamers are looking for something new, not in terms of pretty graphics, but in gameplay. If SWTOR doesn't come up with something new they'll find that their playerbase will drop massively in just a few months, and this game truely does have potential as it's got a nice engine with smooth and responsive (well almost responsive--needs a little work) controls. Well, I say something new, but it's actually something old that's been hidden away from the mass market (newer gamers will never play on that old engine) for a long time now; DAoC. Grab those mechanics BW and give us some epic battles that will last for years to come! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeedodemus Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Innovation in PVP is a terrible business plan. Take a look at Bloodline Champions, one of the best PVP games ever created that was based entirely on player skill. The only rewards were aesthetic items and grades (which were determined by mmr). At peak hours, there would be 500 players playing. The fact is that PVP doesn't appeal to the masses, even if it is fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doxik Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Where are the open world bases we can take over and push our sides front lines? I think BW owns DAoC, why would they not take from one of the best and add it to their new game? 1) Keeps (bases, cities) 2) Siege equipment (turrets, at-at) 3) Realm ranks (valor levels, yay got one!) 4) Realm abilities (*?Legacy levels??, but not really since they are gained from all exp) I do feel like the skill tree is so WEAK that its almost like realm abilities. 2% here and there helps, but they are nothing like the skills you get from just leveling. I so wish BW reads this. Been a DAoC fan since the game released and have no idea why they are not implementing all that in TOR. Would have been epic. Guys, keep this topic alive and lets make BW see what we want from owpvp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox_McCloud Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 I think BW owns DAoC, why would they not take from THE best and add it to their new game? Made a slight correction to your original post for you. Other then that, I agree. MMO companies need to learn that WoW pvp is absolutely NOT the gold standard to copy from. It was shallow at best. The thing wow had going for it was the beautifully fluid control of your character and ability activation times, no delay at all. However there pvp was so many notches below DAoC that it was really an embarrassment. MMO companies should be taking the best aspects of games, not just copying whatever game has the most subs, otherwise we would all be playing Farmville, which kicks WoWs *** like 7 times over in active accounts =P DAoC style world pvp NEEDs to make a return, I am just sick of shallow nothing pvp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terz- Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Innovation in PVP is a terrible business plan. Take a look at Bloodline Champions, one of the best PVP games ever created that was based entirely on player skill. The only rewards were aesthetic items and grades (which were determined by mmr). At peak hours, there would be 500 players playing. The fact is that PVP doesn't appeal to the masses, even if it is fun. There are more PvP players then you can imagine. The matter is: Once you played DaoC... the recent games PvP mechanics are really ridiculous... and actually a well settled PvP is the secret for a long life end game. If devs won't upgrade nothing new inside PvP system (RvR would be even better)... the only way for keep the game alive will be spit out constantly new Flashpoints and Raids; at that point Swtor would become for real a WoW copy with Lightsabers. I still have the hope it won't happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asnine Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 My favorite thing is how BW/EA owns Mythic, and had Mythic devs working on this game, yet learned NOTHING from DAoC or WAR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox_McCloud Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 I know I miss keep battles form WAR, but I came to a realization a while ago; Theme Park MMOs will never, ever have meaningful world PvP. There's nothing really to fight for, and in the end, though a few skirmishes may happen, the result will be constant trading for quests to get rewards that eventually people won't even use in the end past showing off to their friends. This is simply not true. MMOs should be designed with SWTOR style pve, leveling, story, etc.. + DAoC style world pvp This is not hard and the two do not need to be separate. Theme park MMOs can all have DAoC style pvp, they need to treat it like an entirely separate experience from the PvE side of the game. THe real clincher here though is that there NEEDS to be 3 factions period. Infact, I am seriously considering TOR will be my last 2 faction MMO, becuase 2 faction mmos seem to be WoWish, I have had way better experiences with 3 faction MMOs, just more going on, and the pvp is far better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doxik Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 My favorite thing is how BW/EA owns Mythic, and had Mythic devs working on this game, yet learned NOTHING from DAoC or WAR yeah abit sad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ursusarctus Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 For the same reason EA forced Mythic into making the mediocre game WAR when it could have been so much better. They find this great company called Mythic and purchase them. Mythic made what was empirically one of the best PvP games ever - DAoC. EA thinks "Great! We got a team of PvP experts working for us!" They then proceed to tell that team "No no no, no all that stuff you did which was awesome, that's not popular. No, games like WoW are popular. Copy them. Guild controlled stuff? Motivation to Open World PvP? No no no you guys don't understand, people want WoW, that's not in WoW. People want to grind midlessly for shiny things, whether it be in PvE or PvP...like in WoW. Just make WoW, OK? God you guys have no idea how to make a product that will sell, all that stuff you're talking about sounds nothing like WoW." And thus mediocre games like WAR and SWTOR are born, when they could have been so much better. The rush for the almighty dollar and the desire to appeal to 100% of the MMO playerbase rather than making an epic product to appeal to a smaller playerbase crushes all innovation and passion in this industry. This... My advice wait for guild wars 2, cancel like many have done and let them play their ****** pvp game alone. ps the original pvp developers of daoc left as soon as it was acquired by ea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tandako Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 As much as I am for world pvp... it is a horrible idea in this game. Why? Simple! Faction Balances. Right now also all if not all servers are extremely heavy with Imps. Any type of world pvp will lead people back here crying that they have no one to kill or they can't control X location because they are outnumbered to no end. Then people will want buffs or population limits in the zones, etc.. which would just lead them back to being another warzone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zumlar Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 DAoC was a great game. If they still had the player base they did back in 2001/2002 I would still be playing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ursusarctus Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 As much as I am for world pvp... it is a horrible idea in this game. Why? Simple! Faction Balances. Right now also all if not all servers are extremely heavy with Imps. Any type of world pvp will lead people back here crying that they have no one to kill or they can't control X location because they are outnumbered to no end. Then people will want buffs or population limits in the zones, etc.. which would just lead them back to being another warzone. Not rly , cause with a solid pvp system the underdogs are getting far more pvp experience , ranks , call it whatever , than the zerg realm. So in the edn and although you start weaker your getting far stronger and can hold your ground or win most of the time vs bigger numbers. But such optimal pvp system doesnt exist in swtor whereas did exist in Daoc. Yea if daoc even had like 20k pop i would have still play as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kengaro Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) DAOC is the only REAL PvP MMO, the rest just try to copy WoW anymore and use their flawed system of PvP gear grind. Screw PvPing for armor, augment increases in stats and skills are the way to go. Realm rank was what kept people RvRing in DAOC not better gear. Compares daoc and gw *shakeshead* compares daoc and eve *laughs* you haven't seen much outside daoc? And all you guys saying daoc is "it" - compared to eve online are all other mmo's nothing - let's face it, eve has made it actually as close to the real world as an mmo can be... You have a near open market, you have whole planets and systems conquerable, you have huge alliances with thousands of players fighting over systems, planets and resourcess Everything is playermade, the ships and weapons are crafted, the resourcess are gathered from asteroids and planets (if you're big scale in 0.0), there's trade routes and trade centers, the hole "world"/universe takes more than a few hours to only jump through from jump gate to jump gate There is no pvp-zone you can attack anywhere whoever you want!!!! I mean there are actually player's living from playing eve online and thats not in asia thats in europe!!!!! Eve was the only game I've ever played the "guilds" were suspicious of spys, beeing careful with intel in alliances, planning pvp "raids" over 3 or more waypoints, always scouting, always makeing sure you have an escape route, the alliances even had several hundreds of player moving cordinated in different systems to achieve victory in the favored points And losseing your ship and clone meant something, it's not ow I'm dead, it's fck I just lost a 1+ billion worth of items, even with insurance I have a minus of a few hundred millions.... That are days of playing, not only a few houers... It is amazing, but I don't have enough patience for it, it's too big for me, there is soo much to learn even after 2 years I was far from knowing everything, and honestly I doubt I'll ever play it again, it just takes soo much time to get back into it... Edited January 12, 2012 by Kengaro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenzoo Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 DAOC is by far the best PvP any MMO has ever had. I wouldn't even consider GW a true MMO but more of an arena-based game. GW had nothing outside the logging in and going into arenas with your team. DAOC's PvP is second to none, and I still do not understand why nobody copies that system with the addition of warzones/arenas. This would provide the mainstream instanced pvp of arenas/warzones but also provide true world PvP that matters. Now-a-days, games are loot driven. People only do world pvp if they will get currency to turn in for loot. In DAOC, people PvP'd because it affected everyone. Relics provided bonuses that effected those raiders just as well as those PvPing. There was no loot in PvP... only special abilities granted by progressing in PvP ranks. I was a rank 10 nightshade and I can tell you it never felt like a grind to me. In contrast, Ilum already feels like a grind to me. But in terms of a developer, copying DAOC's PvP system is risky business because you are hoping your PvPers will carry the game forward. In DAOC, PvPers is what kept the game alive. I still remember when our entire realm setup a 4am raid on enemy relics. My guild (made of all stealthers) set our alarms not knowing how many people would show up. Come 4am, we had over 500 people on our realm all ready to work together and make a clean sweep of all the relics. These raid were the best PvP i've ever had. It wasn't just a zerg fest. I'll spare the long details but anyone who participated in these raids knew how well organized and how strategy took a large role in success. Zerging keeps and relics hardly ever worked because by the time you reached the relic keeps, 500-700 enemies would be waiting on the walls ready to rain death on you. Name another MMO that can bring 500 people together at 4 AM to work unselfishly for the good of the faction? None. WoW can't even do that. Instead, BW/EA went with the mainstream WoW model in hopes they can steal some of their population with a extremely unpolished game but hoping the SW licencing would be enough. I do give it to SWTOR for being innovative for a few features, but I just hope this game can survive its start. It is very clear either EA or BW execs forced this product out before it was ready. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mhak Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) This isn't what happened at all. EA purchased Mythic based on the long developed alpha and beta clients of Warhammer. EA had seen Warhammer, and seen what Mythic intended to do with it, BEFORE they purchased the studio. The same applies to Bioware. In both cases, EA purchased the teams based on product those teams had already been developing for a considerable period of time. In both cases the purchase allowed the teams to continue development for an extended period of time due to increased cash flow, and EA - especially with Bioware - had limited oversight when it came to the development of the game. Perhaps EA did impart some influence on the game but that is hardly surprising. To blame all of the ills in War and SWTOR on EA, however, is a tedious misrepresentation of the facts on the ground. It's exactly what happened. EA purchased Mythic because they could afford to, there was a lot of controversy during and after the purchase because Mythic didn't want to lose its sovereignty. They did because $$$ has the last say in anything, and the cash flow was needed, as you said. And then EA did, absolutely, 100%, drastically change WAR from what it was going to be into what it is. This is EAs SOP and why they will never have as much success with an MMO as Blizzard. WoW was innovative at the time it came out. Blizzard gave it's devs more time and more time and more time every time they asked for it. EA drew a line in the sand and said "We want a game that incorporates a lot of things you didn't want to put in because we think it will attract more people, and we want it released by this date in time, period, we don't care if it's not even complete by that time." WAR released early with tons of bugs and lots of unpleasantness and to a majorly disappointed fanbase who had been promised a "return of RvR" as a result. I have no idea why you're defending EA but your defense of them is baseless entirely. I am not misrepresenting anything in the slightest. You sound like an EA rep to be honest. Edited January 12, 2012 by Mhak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tic- Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) Nostalgia and its rose-tinted glasses. Funny no one says.... Oh, don't you remember Stunguard...... Scouts at launch, made Operatives look like piss ants,could hit you at clip range....wait, how did our clothie just die out of nowhere?..... How awesome were buffbots, 2 accounts to just be a viable stealther, so awesomesauce.... Smite clerics were so balanced...... Oh, remember our 16-man group treks into Emain only to run into the 250-man Alb zerg that would proceed to wait outside our realm keep for 2 hours? Oh wait, we would go zerg Svasude Faste instead since Mids are LOL in our realm..... Exploited relic keep defenses for a free relic for the Alb zerg that was never acknowledged..... Artifacts that took 6 weeks of grinding mobs hours a day that required a group of 8 to take down, so fun...... /end sarcasm Ending my rant with ToC since I think that's when we can all agree things were going downhill. I loved the game too, but stop looking through tinted glasses....even the best games had it's share of issues. Oh wait....1 more! -snip- I don't think anyone mentioned they wanted class imbalances, buff bots, or the expansion that killed DAoC. I would gather, they are talking about the PvP aspect, with realm vs. realm, base capturing, et al., as opposed to another game focused on instanced flag capturing/node guarding... You know, take what was there in DAoC, expand on it, and make it better. But that may be me going out on a limb. /shrug Edited January 12, 2012 by Tic- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kengaro Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) Name another MMO that can bring 500 people together at 4 AM to work unselfishly for the good of the faction? None. WoW can't even do that. Eve Online - The Big Players with ease if needed.... Comparing sizes: http://massively.joystiq.com/2010/10/30/the-largest-battle-ever-held-in-eve-online-is-going-on-right-now/ That's up to 3000 players fighting with each other on the same server at the same time, in the same system:D Edited January 12, 2012 by Kengaro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbrownie Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/World_versus_World At least that looks promising. It'll be worth picking up just to try it out, I think. No subscription fees is a bonus as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kengaro Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 GW 1 was great, GW 2 will be great, the balancing was amazing, the faction system was cool (yes there was a kind of instanced RvR in GW )..... GW2 ll most likely rock, they know what they do and they have a huge fanbase... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreadspectre Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) Won't ever work again until game companies remember to put in a 3rd Faction(or no faction at all via EVE). On a positive note on World PvP based games, Planetside 2 is coming out and it DOES have 3 Factions. Edited January 12, 2012 by Dreadspectre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbrownie Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Won't ever work again until game companies remember to put in a 3rd Faction. On a positive note on World PvP based games, Planetside 2 is coming out and it DOES have 3 Factions. But... that's exactly what they're doing with the WvWvW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blazzen Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 For the same reason EA forced Mythic into making the mediocre game WAR when it could have been so much better. They find this great company called Mythic and purchase them. Mythic made what was empirically one of the best PvP games ever - DAoC. EA thinks "Great! We got a team of PvP experts working for us!" They then proceed to tell that team "No no no, no all that stuff you did which was awesome, that's not popular. No, games like WoW are popular. Copy them. Guild controlled stuff? Motivation to Open World PvP? No no no you guys don't understand, people want WoW, that's not in WoW. People want to grind midlessly for shiny things, whether it be in PvE or PvP...like in WoW. Just make WoW, OK? God you guys have no idea how to make a product that will sell, all that stuff you're talking about sounds nothing like WoW." And thus mediocre games like WAR and SWTOR are born, when they could have been so much better. The rush for the almighty dollar and the desire to appeal to 100% of the MMO playerbase rather than making an epic product to appeal to a smaller playerbase crushes all innovation and passion in this industry. +1 Someone understands. Like anything else, it all boils down to money. WoW's wild success both revolutionized and ruined MMORPGs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kengaro Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Won't ever work again until game companies remember to put in a 3rd Faction(or no faction at all via EVE). On a positive note on World PvP based games, Planetside 2 is coming out and it DOES have 3 Factions. GW had 2 Faction funny it was balanced isn't it? Had maybe something to do that they had an intelligent matching system, and premades were usual.... Loved it rollin with my team through my opponents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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