Guardians are Getting Buffed!

[Rancorzealot]

I personally think Guardians are right where they need to be in DPS/Survivability in PVP but Bioware thinks different! I sure as heck ain't going to stop them from making these changes!!!!!

 

 

GeorgZoeller,

 

 

.....Here are some of the things we're planning to roll out in the short term specifically regarding Sith Warriors and Jedi Knights :

 

Mobility/Anti Kiting (PvP) – We agree with the sentiment voiced by the community that some Guardians and Juggernauts have to work harder than other classes to stay within effective combat range, putting them at a disadvantage. We intend to address this in an upcoming patch where, as a first step, Force Push will clear the cooldown of Force Leap, granting for more reliable in combat pursuit capabilities to the Advanced Class. Further changes will be made if necessary.

 

DPS spec survivability (PvP and PvE) – The DPS specs on Guardian and Juggernaut are performing to our expectations when it comes to the ability to create damage, especially of the burst variety. However their survivability is lagging behind our expectations, especially in the later game, and we are going to start addressing that particular issue in an upcoming patch.

 

Original post here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=1435443#edit1435443

Edited January 11, 2012 by Rancorzealot

[Shadow_Spec]

A lot of people sure disagree with you as well in the community about the JG being fine. Edited January 11, 2012 by Shadow_Spec

[neocoma]

About the dps part. I was directive 7 hard as a damage dealer vigilance specced and we constantly wiped at that big 400k health robot thing because our grp lacked damage. As you have to or can kill silver adds I had direct comparism between me and a commano in heal gear and it took him about 30% - 40% less time to kill the adds.

 

He also did about 4.4k crits while my heavy hitter only scratched the 2k mark. I wasnt that undergeared compared to him that would justify such huge damage discripancy.

 

So yeah ...we are still effed.

[Rancorzealot]

A lot of people sure disagree with you as well in the community about the JG being fine.

 

Jedi Guardian SUCK at low levels plain and simple. When I hit 50 I LOVED it. Even without my biochem and other buffs I can survive and DPS through big groups of other 50s with the same or better gear. Anyone lacking in DPS is just specc'd wrong or needs to brush up on their PvP. As for Survivability I do believe Guardians need a Endurance buff as I see people at my level with the same gear such as Powertechs rolling around with 22k HP when I have 18k. But Guardians are by far one of the more balanced characters, except when going against OP Operatives lol.

[Svest]

Jedi Guardian SUCK at low levels plain and simple. When I hit 50 I LOVED it. Even without my biochem and other buffs I can survive and DPS through big groups of other 50s with the same or better gear. Anyone lacking in DPS is just specc'd wrong or needs to brush up on their PvP. As for Survivability I do believe Guardians need a Endurance buff as I see people at my level with the same gear such as Powertechs rolling around with 22k HP when I have 18k. But Guardians are by far one of the more balanced characters, except when going against OP Operatives lol.

 

Absolutely

 

Its like a whole new game for Guards once you hit 50 and get some gear. At low levels we are terrible, but at 50 we are quite solid. My gear isn't even that good yet (bad luck with champ bags so far), but I'm still always top 1-3 in damage in a WZ along with a good amount of protection points from guard/taunts too.

 

If they actually make that change to Force Push I might have to see if I can work Unremitting into a build. We'll be literally immune to CC with it.

[neocoma]

I dont see how everyone considers focus the only viable tree option only because you can crit 5 people for big numbers and only when you are full of buffs anyway. It is every 9 secs ...you need to prepare it. Its playstyle sucks because you tend to charge your sweep via force exhaustion and leap into a group to blow it off and see big numbers, then die. Is that really enjoyable for you guys?

[Obie_Wan]

I was kind of hoping to see the Defense tree being optimized for PVE and PVP but it seems like the major issues for the developer teams is mobility and survivability for DPS trees.

 

I wonder if they'll ever fix Momentum eating up Courage stacks?

 

I wonder if they'll improve on Blade Barrier, because "moderate" damage really feels awkward when it translates to roughly ~600 points of damage absorption.

 

I wonder if they'll fix the PVP 2 set bonus for tanks that's causing us to root ourselves for 1 sec to cast Force Stasis?

 

I wonder if they can actually give the Defense tree an unique identity that sets it apart from the other two tanking classes? We can do the job, but we're lacking the uniqueness that sets us apart.

 

 

That's not to say that there aren't aspects that the community finds lackluster, and I'm sure they all have good reasons to feel so, but I was a bit let down by the fact that there isn't nearly as much attention on the PVE tanking side of things.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Obie_Wan

[Svest]

I dont see how everyone considers focus the only viable tree option only because you can crit 5 people for big numbers and only when you are full of buffs anyway. It is every 9 secs ...you need to prepare it. Its playstyle sucks because you tend to charge your sweep via force exhaustion and leap into a group to blow it off and see big numbers, then die. Is that really enjoyable for you guys?

 

The way you describe it would not be enjoyable at all. However that is not at all the way it goes for me. Don't try to jump into the middle of a ton of enemies all by yourself unsupported. You don't have to hit 5 people every single time you sweep. Sweep is also not your only source of damage, its just the big KO punch when you need it (if you time it right).

[Rancorzealot]

I dont see how everyone considers focus the only viable tree option only because you can crit 5 people for big numbers and only when you are full of buffs anyway. It is every 9 secs ...you need to prepare it. Its playstyle sucks because you tend to charge your sweep via force exhaustion and leap into a group to blow it off and see big numbers, then die. Is that really enjoyable for you guys?

 

I am one of those people that do not use focus because I didn't think it was fun or practical. I found Vigilance to be my match. I may not crit 7ks all the time but I do get 4-5k crits VERY often.

[Murkyone]

They better be adding a pretty big buff to building threat, IN ADDITION to what's mentioned.

[Rancorzealot]

They better be adding a pretty big buff to building threat, IN ADDITION to what's mentioned.

 

Yeah, I noticed the same thing. I cannot hold threat worth a damn! That is mostly why I said F U to PVE and went straight PvP.

[Noth]

I am one of those people that do not use focus because I didn't think it was fun or practical. I found Vigilance to be my match. I may not crit 7ks all the time but I do get 4-5k crits VERY often.

 

I loved vigilance/vengeance because it snuck up on people. Though I have switched to focus/rage for the shock factor that has won fight on its own.

[Sputts]

While mobility is something that's an issue for Guardians I really don't understand what Bioware is thinking concerning the balance of the tank classes. At the moment the Guardian outputs less damage and has less resilience than other tanks. Something is seriously wrong with the Guardian in a more serious manner and giving the ability to chain force leaps together every 45 seconds isn't going to help that.

 

The Defense tree puts out less damage and threat than other tanks but also has damage reduction. Warding Call is nice but the long cooldown means it's really only useful once in a while and needs to be saved for important fights and is not an effective substitute for the higher DR and HP pools the other tanks get. On top of that, the defense stat which many Guardian talents promote isn't very useful. It ignores a ton of attacks and these are the most powerful attacks that would be hitting a tank. Guardian wouldn't necessarily be terrible, though they are way too weak when focused in PVP for sure, if there were no other tanks but there are. I can't justify using a Guardian over other tanks

 

Upping the damage reduction of the DPS trees is a good idea but won't fix the many issues that Guardians have at the moment. Most of the damage mitigation available to Guardians is from Soresu form which is why all specs tend to run it. The tree itself doesn't really offer much.

[timidobserver]

I started a Guardian when a buddy decided to play TOR with me. I've played a Marauder to 50 during beta, A sage to 30 during beta, a Shadow to 43 during live, and the Guardian is currently 33.

 

I have to say that I am completely underwhelmed with the Guardian. I am glad that George is stepping out of the way and letting them take a look at this class.

[Polebreaker]

Stupid. I'm actually more or less ok with how often I can force leap. What I'm not ok with is the broken and bugged resolve system that needs to be scrapped yesterday. The 10 different forms of CC, many of which concentrated on just a few classes, combined with a wayyyy too long counter and broken resolve system, leaves not just knights in the lurch but all melees.

 

Dont waste time playing with leap. Nerf some of these crazy CC abilities in pvp.

[Dalnar]

The change with push doesn't make much sense. Reset on saber throw would be more logical. However, I would rather see animation for master strike changed, so it can be used on the move

[MichellMich]

I'm glad they're upping DPS Guardian Survivability. I switch to Guardian Spec because the DPS trees just weren't viable later in the game. Needless to say I've had little Survival issues as a Guardian Tank.

[Zombull]

Maybe for PvP. I don't partake in that. What I see is PvE combat that feels like I'm wielding a plastic toy. Very slow, depressingly slow damage output. Strongest damage abilities being the ones that don't even use the darn lightsaber (punches and hilt strikes). It's just sad, especially compared to the other classes I play.

[Venares]

I have yet to hit 50 yet (just hit 40) and my shadow tank buddy is ridiculous as a tank.

He has absolutly no problems holding threat and does WAY more damage than I ever could.

 

As others have said, I do no not feel like some epic protector of the peace.

I feel more like someones punching bag.

 

And I totaly agree the whole idea of push resetting leap its just dumb.

Leap is fine, push is fine.

 

What is not fine is our DPS output and conversly our threat output.

Hell im pretty sure we could do with a slight adjustment in mitigation too because boy do I seem to take a hell of a lot more damage then any other tank AC.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Venares

[Jediwran]

I have yet to hit 50 yet (just hit 40) and my shadow tank buddy is ridiculous as a tank.

He has absolutly no problems holding threat and does WAY more damage than I ever could.

 

As others have said, I do no not feel like some epic protector of the peace.

I feel more like someones punching bag.

 

And I totaly agree the whole idea of push resetting leap its just dumb.

Leap is fine, push is fine.

 

What is not fine is our DPS output and conversly our threat output.

Hell im pretty sure we could do with a slight adjustment in mitigation too because boy do I seem to take a hell of a lot more damage then any other tank AC.

 

Yeah, I'm a bit surprised DPS for PVP is getting the first look. Tanking has much bigger issues.

[ChrisJSY]

Disappointed they think Defense tree is fine as is.

It's not comparable to any other tank in the game at all, they get it easy mode, we have to work for it, not to mention defense hits like a wet paper towl.

 

I might have 20% more damage reduction (When the rest of my defense bonuses, chance/shield/ etc doesn't help at all) in PvP but some other classes have 200-400% more damage advantage in 9 second bouts.

 

Of course, here we go with the old "It's not a 1vs1 game" because def guardians are pretty nasty when teamed with a healer, but then so is any dps class if they're both competent/friends/on voice comms and teamed with a healer.

 

I'm not neccesarily asking for more damage, but I'm asking for more in the opposite end of the scale, + more aoes, more often or cheaper.

 

Cyclone could do with costing 1 focus if talented in the defense tree, troopers and bh's can spam a miriad of AOE abilities cheaply, easily and at range, or from their character in a 360* arc. Ours comes waaaaay too late and way too costly and on the low end scale of damage to really be worth it.

 

I now tank as focus with my tanking gear, and can effectively DPS in my DPS gear, it's quite something in fact. I really don't see the point in defense any more, I hate it, nothing has changed in hardmodes and I can fill two roles.

[Dikiem]

In low level, under 30, they are hard to solo.

 

You can't self heal

You can only use one medpack every 90 seconds, so in a 1-1 fight or you fighting a group, you cant really use more than one

 

Melee required you to always chase down your enemy, so if they have force push and they do long range attack, by the time you reach them, you are down some good health

 

Lightsaber stat sucks.

 

My wookiee non-jedi on SWG could fight better than this

[HeroMystic]

What Bioware addressed is a good step, especially for DPS Guardians gaining more survivability for PvE Content (The Damage mitigation is absolutely terrible right now), but the main problem isn't being addressed.

 

Compared to my Vanguard, which is a close ranged tank with 10m attacks, Guardian is just bad in both DPS and Tanking cases. Level 50 may be different for Flashpoints 'n such, but leveling to 50 can either be an absolute bore (DEF spec), or an absolute nightmare (Vigil/Focus spec).

 

If all of Guardians moves are going to be below 10m, then the damage scaling should be upped dramatically to compensate. It's ridiculous how my Vanguard is so much more versatile but can deal more damage -and- Tank better as a result thanks to Motar Volley.

[laslaya]

What Bioware addressed is a good step, especially for DPS Guardians gaining more survivability for PvE Content (The Damage mitigation is absolutely terrible right now), but the main problem isn't being addressed.

 

Compared to my Vanguard, which is a close ranged tank with 10m attacks, Guardian is just bad in both DPS and Tanking cases. Level 50 may be different for Flashpoints 'n such, but leveling to 50 can either be an absolute bore (DEF spec), or an absolute nightmare (Vigil/Focus spec).

 

If all of Guardians moves are going to be below 10m, then the damage scaling should be upped dramatically to compensate. It's ridiculous how my Vanguard is so much more versatile but can deal more damage -and- Tank better as a result thanks to Motar Volley.

 

I'm fairly certain George or whatever the lead designer is has something against JK's and SW's in general. Its probably a population control thing really. I wouldn't expect good buffs until he quits, gets "promoted" or fired. Kalgan in WoW had his pet class (warriors) and classes he liked gimping as well. When he quit being lead dev, the new guy had his own pet class and took a dump on Kalgan's favorite warrior class. Developers have their favorites, its obvious JK is not one of this guys.

 

Honestly, from a business standpoint I don't get alienating a portion of your player base, but this developer probably thinks the game will somehow be better for everyone if more people play other classes.

Edited January 13, 2012 by laslaya

[Atamasama]

I'm fairly certain George or whatever the lead designer is has something against JK's and SW's in general. Its probably a population control thing really. I wouldn't expect good buffs until he quits, gets "promoted" or fired. Kalgan in WoW had his pet class (warriors) and classes he liked gimping as well. When he quit being lead dev, the new guy had his own pet class and took a dump on Kalgan's favorite warrior class. Developers have their favorites, its obvious JK is not one of this guys.

It's Georg, and what he said is the opposite of what you're suggesting. Did you read it? It's in the OP if you didn't.