CHOICE IS AN ILLUSION - not an RPG - MMO on rails

[Talkative]

In Fallout 3 I killed that DJ in the Washington ruins, which then proceeded to mess up the entire story line because he was a necessary character. Now that's freedom of choice. He shouldn't have been rude to me and maybe he'd still be alive. But that ability to forge your own destiny is what attached me to that game and gives it a great memory in my mind. The story was my own, the decision to kill him was my own.

 

Elder scrolls are much the same - I don't know what you're talking about. You can kill whoever you want in Elder Scrolls, steal from whoever you want... Kill someone and take over their house, or be a bandit hiding out in the woods, or a noble wizard whose friends with the king, CHOICE is the beauty of Elder Scrolls, and on top of that the quests/enemies actually provide a challenge as you proceed.

Skyrim is that way ---->

[Nerdwing]

Skyrim is that way ---->

 

Haha good one! If there's one thing this forum is good for its telling people to play another game!

[ClayPeopleCry]

My first ~15 levels or so I made choices made as if I were roleplaying (something I hardly EVER do in games). I wanted to feel connected to my character.

 

I killed a few NPCs who were real a-holes, and I saved some other people who didn't deserve a grisly fate. Then went to the light/dark side vendors and saw all of the relics were based on your light/dark points.

 

I had accrued 1200 light side and 1050 dark side. I could use exactly zero relics in the game.

 

Worst game design.

 

Ever.

 

Lol. I know what you mean. The game is great fun up till you find those vendors.

[a_Stalker]

So... you want specific quest rewards (companion, etc), but you don't want to do the quests to get them....

 

Yeah. That makes sense.

 

"You have to do all the quests!"

"No, you don't. You only need to do a small number of the total available to be able to progress."

"But then you don't get the cool stuff from the quests you don't do!"

/facepalm

 

 

 

OK lets clear this.

 

WOW (2004): "you have reached level 60. Go do these quests to get X".

WOW (2012): "you have reached level 60. Please visit your trainer".

 

SWTOR (2012): "go do these quests from level 1, else you are not getting companion, cannot leave planet, cannot get spaceship and go anywhere".

 

 

I am not sure what is so hard to understand here, SWTOR is a most linear game on rails... If you do not see it, well I do not care anymore.

[Vandaman]

LOL.. ^^This.

 

Also, without giving away too much, there's an instance in the Sith Warrior campaign where a companion betrays you. Yet you don't have the choice to kill him/her. You're pretty much forced to allow them back into your crew.

 

Guess what... That was in game during beta but too many players complained when they realized they needed them for Crew Skills etc... The choice was thus taken out because too many players didn't think through what they were doing and did something stupid and wanted it reversed. Maybe if there weren't so many people in this world who didn't think things through we could have nice things. However, there are far more of these people than there are people who think things through and thus we cannot have nice things.

[buzzboy]

I love the way Bioware designed this game, so I am having a blast.

 

Some of us have grinded so much XP in our lives that it has all become half a dozen this or six of that. What makes SWTOR such a treat is the story, lore and the cinematic nature of design. In addition, if you are a true fanboy, that would be me, you would have read books, played games and immersed yourself in the universe. So, for people like me, a hardcore gamer, the attraction of the game design is exactly what it was advertised to be.

 

I can go play any number of games if I miss the mindless grind. Some are more story driven then others. But I can't replace the cinematic grandeur of the Star Wars universe.

 

From my perspective keep up the awesome work Bioware, because it really does make a different gaming experience. Plus, since I am also a hardcore grinder, I can have my cake and eat it to and level up multiple characters.

[a_Stalker]

So let me get this straight. You just agreed that every time you roll a new class, 50% of the content you see will be a fairly engaging story that you have never seen before? Let that sink in. Half of the quest content you see when you start a new class is totally new, every time, whether it's your second character or your eigth. Yet somehow this is inferior to getting to decide if you want to kill 10 tigers in a forest or 10 crocdiles in a swamp at level 20?

 

If the aesthetics of the zones are that important to you, then yeah, you can call that a problem if you want. I personally place a lot more value on seeing new story content than I do on what the environment I'm in looks like. I'm one of those guys who reads the quest log in WoW so that I know what's going on =p

 

I don't like Balmorra. So I went to Balmorra, did my class quest (which I enjoyed thoroughly and the ending was hilarious) and maybe 3 side quests. Then I leveled up the rest of the way to 20 from Hammer Station and PvP. There are still 3 group quests on Balmorra that I haven't done yet for my next character (which are a ton of xp), and there's always space missions. See? Options.

 

No, 50% of my quests will be class quests where the quest giver is sitting 5 yards away from your class quest giver on the exact same planet and in the exact same order of planets to visit. In addition I will have to do the same side quests again.

 

If the story line is the soul of this game, at least it should be enough to let me level without the need to do PvP or side quests. And it should be on different planets, at least two choices for Republic and two for Empire.

 

I gave up my toon at level 24-ish on Nar Shaddaa. My young son gave up at 20. My oldest son is the determined one, he has not given up yet, he occasionally plays and he is 27-ish. But he is not taking an interest, he did not even know what planet he was on.

 

This giving up half way also happened with AOC and WAR and LOTRO I think it was much sooner. We always go back to WOW even though it is so old and boring now.

[sebbulba]

Guess what... That was in game during beta but too many players complained when they realized they needed them for Crew Skills etc... The choice was thus taken out because too many players didn't think through what they were doing and did something stupid and wanted it reversed. Maybe if there weren't so many people in this world who didn't think things through we could have nice things. However, there are far more of these people than there are people who think things through and thus we cannot have nice things.

 

/thread

 

SWTOR is a linear game. But its actually enjoyable anyways. When did anybody decide that MMOs shouldnt or can't be linear until end game level?

 

I think it's much more enjoyable to follow the flow of my quests on one planet then switching regions not caring about any quest what so ever.

 

I'm not saying TOR has no poor questlines. But at least, out of three questlines there's actually one which is quite good and you get to decide some of the outcome of the quests, and yes, I'm in my 40s now and I still enjoy the voice acting. I think it was worth it. It made me really follow the quest story lines, reading up things in the codex, and actually caring for the world in TOR.

 

And I totally look forward to the rest of my trooper storyline, and the many story arcs they will add.

[Avrose]

OK lets clear this.

 

WOW (2004): "you have reached level 60. Go do these quests to get X".

WOW (2012): "you have reached level 60. Please visit your trainer".

 

SWTOR (2012): "go do these quests from level 1, else you are not getting companion, cannot leave planet, cannot get spaceship and go anywhere".

 

 

I am not sure what is so hard to understand here, SWTOR is a most linear game on rails... If you do not see it, well I do not care anymore.

 

Whoa hold on, no one said you can't leave a planet.

[Vaegaknight]

All choices are illusions.

[TheHeadCapper]

 

I am not sure what is so hard to understand here, SWTOR is a most linear game on rails... If you do not see it, well I do not care anymore.

 

But you are ignoring all the other points brought up like a typical child.

[Rhudian]

You can't have an "impact" on the world if it's going to undercut someone else's opportunity to experience the same content. They're paying the same as you; why shouldn't they get to kill the same bosses as you?

I'm not saying they shouldn't. What they shouldn't have attempted was the constant reinforcement of "that thing you did was amazing and unique" when it was, in fact, generic.

 

Just tell me what I did was generic, but hint that I may be contributing to something unique.

 

When you start looking at developing the story and world like that, you could breathe life into the world in such a way that the aggregation of generic choices end up with an overall meaning. Let everyone arrive at similar boss fights, but change the paths and intermediate objectives.

 

Planet-wide events start occurring based upon sets of conditions being met, with eligibilities for participation based on both your personal choices and those of your faction within the most recent day, week or whatever. The game could start serving you content based on your playstyle--if I stealthed through a four-man without killing anything, I get a different optional daily quest than the group who collected a full three-stage kill bonus.

 

You could even create a system that gives the player ongoing feedback on the progress from day to day. Maybe darkside choices grow a pyramid of Rackbeard and Neckbeard skulls on Taris until they can reach some +2 presence datacron, while those making light side choices... have an increasingly likely chance that a gentleman Neckbeard randomly comes to their aid in PVE anywhere in the galaxy. And gruesomely eats the corpse of the loser.

 

The development of in-game relationships could move towards unlocking a branching tree of options from quest givers over weeks or months rather than playing through linear sequences in your secret dollhouse ("Sometimes I take the clothes off of my Fancy McButtons doll. Do... do you take the clothes off of yours?").

 

 

And don't get me wrong--I'm enjoying the game a great deal. It's just that if I actually pause long enough to look at someone else playing the same class as me, followed by the same non-droid companion I'm using, immersion breaks and I'm jarringly deposited back in reality.

[sebbulba]

All choices are illusions.

 

/thread

 

Really, if you don't enjoy having at least the illusion of a choice, then please, by all means, go kill yourself or wait until you die, because thats the only choice you have.

[Floyln]

My first ~15 levels or so I made choices made as if I were roleplaying (something I hardly EVER do in games). I wanted to feel connected to my character.

 

I killed a few NPCs who were real a-holes, and I saved some other people who didn't deserve a grisly fate. Then went to the light/dark side vendors and saw all of the relics were based on your light/dark points.

 

I had accrued 1200 light side and 1050 dark side. I could use exactly zero relics in the game.

 

Worst game design.

 

Ever.

 

What is 1200-1050?

 

That is your actual alignment. 150 light side.

 

Is it really hard to understand how this system works?

[bbbmmmlll]

There's a difference between "feedback" and insisting that you hate the game's biggest selling factor because you think it "forces you to do it"...

 

The Star Wars setting is the biggest selling factor.

[Veala]

No, 50% of my quests will be class quests where the quest giver is sitting 5 yards away from your class quest giver on the exact same planet and in the exact same order of planets to visit. In addition I will have to do the same side quests again.

 

If the story line is the soul of this game, at least it should be enough to let me level without the need to do PvP or side quests. And it should be on different planets, at least two choices for Republic and two for Empire.

 

I gave up my toon at level 24-ish on Nar Shaddaa. My young son gave up at 20. My oldest son is the determined one, he has not given up yet, he occasionally plays and he is 27-ish. But he is not taking an interest, he did not even know what planet he was on.

 

This giving up half way also happened with AOC and WAR and LOTRO I think it was much sooner. We always go back to WOW even though it is so old and boring now.

 

Honestly, it sounds to me like you're just burnt out on MMOs. If you're not even at cap yet, how does the fact that your alt will have to repeat the content even factor into it? If you've failed to reach cap in multiple games, that tells me that the gameplay/genre is no longer compelling to you. You just keep going back to WoW because of all the time invested and/or your circle of friends there.

 

Instead of going back to old and boring WoW, I'd suggest taking up a new genre. Perhaps Team Fortress 2 or Starcraft II?

[LazyWon]

OK lets clear this.

 

WOW (2004): "you have reached level 60. Go do these quests to get X".

WOW (2012): "you have reached level 60. Please visit your trainer".

 

SWTOR (2012): "go do these quests from level 1, else you are not getting companion, cannot leave planet, cannot get spaceship and go anywhere".

 

 

I am not sure what is so hard to understand here, SWTOR is a most linear game on rails... If you do not see it, well I do not care anymore.

 

I have an issue with your statement, "cannot leave planet" at level 1, because I've ended up on Dormund Kass/Coruscant as a level 3 (from exploration xp no questing/killing mobs) and earned myself the wonderful enjoyment of being killed by the local nasties there.

 

It's a game and it is what you make of it. Explore and go nuts (as far as it lets you without your own spaceship) or just take a ride on the rails. Either way, level 1 does not mean you cannot take the shuttle to the fleet or continue on with the shuttle to your factions capital world. You are correct about no companion or spaceship as that still requires the storyline railroad to obtain them. Is the ride really that bad, though?

[Cancrizans]

Nah, you got it all wrong, it is the other way round. The players who would play and stick with the original EQ/SWG are very few these days. Why would any big company try to target such a small group? They are all trying to steal WOW's 11 or 12 million players. That is where the money is.

 

Since when does "where the money is" have anything to do with the quality or design purpose of an MMO? Either you misread the post I was commenting on or you were just scanning posts to find something to hang your opinion on and saw a few words that sort of fit your purpose.

[Cancrizans]

OK lets clear this.

 

WOW (2004): "you have reached level 60. Go do these quests to get X".

WOW (2012): "you have reached level 60. Please visit your trainer".

 

SWTOR (2012): "go do these quests from level 1, else you are not getting companion, cannot leave planet, cannot get spaceship and go anywhere".

 

 

I am not sure what is so hard to understand here, SWTOR is a most linear game on rails... If you do not see it, well I do not care anymore.

 

Because in WoW you could travel to the level 60 zones as a level 5 right? RIGHT?? No in fact you would get mob aggro from 50 miles away and have to corpse run 100 times just to get to an area where you can get back to a lower level zone without having to hearth.

 

In fact, SWTOR is less linear in this respect, because while it has the same issue of not being able to explore high level areas because of higher level mobs, once you get your ship you can at least travel to just about any planet and check out the spaceport and surrounding areas, look at the vendors, etc.

 

In WoW if you didn't have the flight path, you needed to have someone summon you or you were out of luck, unless you were obsessed with a particular hunter pet that inhabited a lower level zone occupied by the other faction and spent an hour or so dying countless times to get to this area and tame the pet er what were we talking about again?

 

Oh, the fact that SWTOR is no more linear than any other MMO, that's right.

[Wraith_Shadow]

I'm pretty much in this same boat. The original KOTOR 1 and 2 were great. i actually had choices, choices that mattered. I could choose my powers, i could choose my weapons, i could Choose if i had one weapon, two weapons, or one two handed weapon. I chose that, not my advanced class, not Bio ware. Hell, i didn't even have to be a jedi if i didn't want too(it sucked, but it WAS possible). Light/dark side points actually had an effect on things.

 

 

 

At this point with how bad character creation and customization are, they might as well just HAND people characters to play.

[GeneralPyrrhus]

At level 80, Hyjal and only Hyjal is available to you because it's the ONLY place you can start a quest chain.

 

You. Are. Wrong.

This is a lie. At level 80 you get quests to travel to both Hyjal and Vash'ir.

[Erodin]

I really love Star Wars and in the beginning, I thought everyone on the forums was WRONG and SWTOR was the best thing ever. I've been trying to love SWTOR but the problem is the story and linearity, plus BORING QUEST COMBAT. You simply must do story quests in order, and EVERY non-story quest is too easy at the level you can do it, and you can't simply take on higher level (non-story) quests for a challenge because they are "greyed out".

 

Honestly, I want to die sometimes from a big challenge. Or I want to take on a challenge and succeed and get some item that's powerful for my level. I want to be able to CHOOSE what challenges I take on, not forced into quest lines that are easy and boring.

 

In the end, I feel like I'm watching a movie where I'm forced to move the main character without freedom of choice...."I HAVE to run him here"....and I have to choose dialogue that makes NO difference to the plot... HENCE IT'S BORING.

 

What I've found myself doing is following a story I have no impact on - in the order prescribed - and the experience is dull.

 

Even the lightside/darkside choices are not a true CHOICE in that you're forced to follow one path or the other for corresponding items.

 

No two ways about it, this is an MMO on rails - instead of the "rail driven shooter" it's a rail driven MMO. These rails even hamper grouping while leveling because other friends / players will either be behind you or ahead of you in the prescribed order you can do quests. It's been difficult to find someone on the exact quest I'm on, so that we can group together and complete the story line and side quests together - frankly it's happened about once in 25 levels.

 

I must compare it to WoW in that, in WoW, you had different ways to level and different zones etc. You could choose where to go and when, with whom, and how to level... you could grind, or you could quest, or even just PVP, or do some combination thereof. You could choose the zones to go to... bored with helping the elves Ashenvale? Head to another zone of your choice. DO WHATEVER YOU FEEL LIKE.

 

That's the difference. You can't do whatever you feel like in SWTOR, you're confined.

 

In the endgame of WoW, you had a character who saved X Village, who rescued the damsel XXX and defeated the evil Zs. I never even killed the Lich King, nor was I forced to, in order to advance. The point is, not everyone had the same experience or story! You could skip whole areas to level in another of your preference. You created your own story and your own adventure. In SWTOR, everyone of your class has the SAME experience and story. And this is a huge negative.

 

Sorry, but simply choosing abilities does not make a game an RPG. In an RPG, you need freedom of choice so your character has his own background and story that's not the same as everyone else.

 

Last night I completed the Nar Shadaa quests for my Sith Inquisitor, and I was given the option to go to Tatooine or Alderaan for my next series of quests. The choice was false. I figured I'll go to the higher level planet of Alderaan because thus far I've been bored by going to the planet for my corresponding level, and thus I know I'd be bored by the quests on Tatooine. Well, here's the problem, instead of letting me make this choice, in Alderaan the quests were greyed out, so my only "choice" is to go to Tatooine - which I have no interest in doing because the quests are sure to be BORING because the designers are dictating that I can only do such and such at this level - it's easy and boring mind you - so that's just a terrible decision in how the quests (and corresponding character adventure) are forced upon you.

 

For the record, I will keep playing SWTOR but in smaller increments, and enjoying it for what it is, instead of what it should have been/ could be / what I wished it to be.

 

 

Name one mmo that does this, please, and i will join you. Fact of the matter is, you havnt played an mmo in your life. Welcome to our world, if you dont like it, dont let the door hit you on the way out.

[Wraith_Shadow]

Name one mmo that does this, please, and i will join you. Fact of the matter is, you havnt played an mmo in your life. Welcome to our world, if you dont like it, dont let the door hit you on the way out.

 

Could you be a little more Specific? you kind of highlighted a wall of text and said "Grrrr!!!"

[Azzras]

Even the lightside/darkside choices are not a true CHOICE in that you're forced to follow one path or the other for corresponding items.

 

I'm so tired of the misbelief that you HAVE to always pick light or dark in the character stories. I mean, you can grind it out in flashpoints can't you?

Select your choices not based on the end game rewards, but on what you would truly like to pick. If you want to kill the dude, shoot him in the face.

[Darkeus]

Sometimes I think people do not apply the term "linear" properly anymore.

 

And if you think those "sandbox" games are full of choice and not "linear" then I am right. It is all Illusion of Choice. There have been only so many games that are truly "non-linear"

 

In Skyrim, you can do almost anything you want.

 

But if you want to beat the game? You have to do the quest, just like the devs want you to and in THEIR order.

 

Get over it. No game is really non-linear. This is not a Tabletop RPG, it just doesn't work that way