Dual Spec: Let's Talk about it.

[Jedi_Wannabe]

We have leveling, we have FPs and OPs, we have space combat, and we have a bit of pvp. Tell me why do I get to enjoy leveling, FPS, space combat with the same build and why not pvp...? Do you have a valid reason for restricting me from enjoying pvp to it's fullest? These are different areas of the game, I'm not stealing anyone if I want to enjoy pvp as well. Why am I the devil because I want to enjoy all aspects of the game?

 

Having talents with different effects for pve and pvp and not having an ability to switch freely between them is outdated and lame in 2012. It's not 2004 when WoW started and had no dual-spec. Please just forget to compare this game to a 2004 game and show how modern it is, because that in itself is a fail...

 

That said I like the game with all of it's faults, but some things are so stupidly old-fashioned and outdated it's totally not understandable how they could come out with those today...

 

Why do you feel that you can enjoy leveling, FPs, OPs, and space, but you can only enjoy PvP if you have a talent spec that is designed only for PvP? How is a spec that can do everything well, ruining your experience? Are you saying you don't enjoy being good at PvP? Are you saying you can only enjoy PvP if you are great at it, being good isn't enough?

 

Do you have a valid reason for not being able to enjoy the game if you spec your character to be good at different roles? Is PvP so difficult for you that you can't enjoy it unless you are so specialized that you can't do anything else?

 

Are you just making things up to argue about? Did I say you shouldn't be allowed to enjoy PvP to its fullest? It seems to me that you have a problem where you can't enjoy something you are good at. You can only enjoy it if you are first place, using the very best spec for that role and you want to have the very best role for each and every role. That's fine. You are allowed to play that way. And currently you have an advantage over someone who has one spec to do everything. And they have more money to throw around than you do.

 

<sarcasm> You might as well remove all forms of currency. Why should the need to purchase things restrict people from enjoying the game to it's fullest? Why should someone who spends their money carefully have more money than someone who doesn't? <sarcasm>

 

Really though, what is the purpose of currency in the game? If you're meant to be able to get everything you want, when you want it, why have it? Why not make all skills, crafting missions, recipes, respecs, vehicles, etc. free? I'm saying that if you choose one of those things you may have less money for some of the others. If a player wants unlimited respecs should they have it if it's what they enjoy? If another player enjoys having lots of different mounts should they all be free? If a player wants every recipe for their crew skills should they be free?

 

Currency is there, in limited supply, to make you choose what to spend it on. If you only want to spend it on respecs, spend it all on respecs. If you want to spend it on collecting every mount or every recipe or every whatever, spend it on that. Is there a valid reason one players favorite thing should be cheap and easy while another players favorite thing should not?

 

I'm not saying you can't enjoy PvP or PvE or both. I'm saying the current systems allows you to enjoy one, the other, or both at the same time. If you want to do both at the same time you can either make a spec that does both well, or spend a lot of money switching back and forth between two specs that are slightly better. Or you can just roll one alt. You'd have to spend some time leveling the alt, but when you're done you have the best of both worlds, the spec you want for the role you want, and you never have to spend the money to respec. How does having the ability to play multiple characters on one server not allow you to enjoy each role to its fullest? Is the leveling process really that slow? Does the fact that you've already seen the content once mean that you can't enjoy yourself if you have to see it one more time? Are you really willing to quit the game because you would have to see the same content twice in order to enjoy yourself? Is the enjoyment you would get from having characters with both specs not equal or less than the dissatisfaction of seeing the content a second time?

 

I want to understand where you're coming from. I know that you don;t merely want to be good at the game. I know you want to be a Jack of all Trades and Master of All. But I want to know why the current choices of either spending money on respecs, or rolling one alt for each role you enjoy, can't achieve that for you.

[invispoet]

invisipoet - you claim that dual spec doesnt "make anything easier"

 

well, YES is does. it allows you to be able to have 2 level 50 characters for the price of one.

 

thats 50% off the retail price. sounds EASY to me.

 

It's NOT two level 50 characters. My Mercenary doesnt all of a sudden become a tank just because I can respec. He doesnt become a melee dps. Even with dual spec, there are limitations and choices. I can choose to have two healing specs, maybe one for pure healing out put, and one for surivability. I can choose to have one for pve, and one for pvp. I can choose to have one for dps soloing (which honestly isnt needed, Gault does nearly as much dps as I do in dps spec on single targets). I could even choose to have 2 dps specs, because Arsenal is very stationary, and on some fights, I would rather be more mobile (pyrotech).

 

None of this is the same as having another level 50 character, and I could even argue that getting GOOD at all these specs would take just as long (or longer) than levelling another character. All dual speccing does is allow people to form groups more quickly, and guilds to be able to raid if one key person can't make it for some unforseen reason.

[Slopback]

Are you saying you can only enjoy PvP if you are great at it, being good isn't enough?

 

Sorry but I could read your wall of text up to this. I don't want to be great, I want to have no handicap, that is all... There's a reason why healthy sportsmen and those in a wheelchair don't race on the same olympics.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Slopback

[Jedi_Wannabe]

noone who isn't delusional has any problem with it

 

This post pretty much ends the debate. You've just solved everything.

[Calimwulf]

Waiting 2 hours or just praying someone will come on or come along who is willing or wants to be bothered with healing is ridiculous dual spec's would open that field wide open either that or do like gw did make merc's you can hire that can heal you , tank for you and dps for you to make it possible to do Heroic 4's but truthfully something needs to be done! People made these instance's to be played and seen along with your current level not to be skipped b/c everyone is on the rush to 50 which right now doesn't seem all to amazing, that's just my opinion.

 

But none the less Dual Spec will come later in game they already said just hopefully not much later.

A dual spec makes sense if one considers that they want a PvE one and a PvP one.

 

Absolutely no one will change Roles using it. It just doesn't work that way. If a person is 99% DPS and then on the fly switches to Healing. Anything other than a higher level toon shepherding a lower level one just won't work. Healing is more complex than that, even in Heroic content, much less higher level Flashpoint, and while I haven't gotten to 50 and started raiding, odds are it won't be easier.

[PhillyBop]

So I should only be able to go into warzones every 2-3 hours? Another stupid argument... You people against dual spec are totally ridicilous...

 

 

I think you are being the ridiculous one here, you are blatantly insulting people because their point of view opposes yours. It's people like you who ends up getting threads locked up because mods feel that the forum thread is doing nothing productive.

 

If you force dual spec in the game, someone like me, who doesn't want a duel spec because I will be pressured by my friends/guildies to have my second spec to what they want, as well with getting all the gear so my second spec is ready to go at any time. As of right now, you CAN switch your spec, sure it's annoying to do, and dual spec will be easier for you, but you can switch your spec. If dual spec is released, I won't exactly have a choice but to get it, because if I don't, it will be an x next to my guild application.

 

You have no problem pushing what you want onto me, yet you get pissed when I want to to keep things as is, where people have the option to re-spec if they want to, and someone like me isn't bottlenecked into the system of your choice. I wasn't happy when dual speccing was introduced to WoW, because I went from being a primary healer, to a swing class, doing healing when needed, and then switching to DPS when needed. That's not how I play, but like I said, if I didn't go this route, they would have replaced me with someone who would do the dual spec.

 

Dual speccing gets introduced, I may as well go back to WoW, and play a game that has plenty of end game content, but uses the same system. 'But this is Star Wars and not WoW!' That's nice, in the end, they are exactly the same, level up by killing stuff, PvP, helping out computer generated characters. Reach max level, then run the same dungeons over and over and over, so why not go with a game that has lots of end game content?

 

If you want dual specing, go back to WoW please, it's already implemented over there. Don't pollute a new game with old ideas.

Edited January 10, 2012 by PhillyBop

[invispoet]

Why do you feel that you can enjoy leveling, FPs, OPs, and space, but you can only enjoy PvP if you have a talent spec that is designed only for PvP? How is a spec that can do everything well, ruining your experience? Are you saying you don't enjoy being good at PvP? Are you saying you can only enjoy PvP if you are great at it, being good isn't enough?

 

People are still stuck in the thinking that they "need" a pvp spec. In some cases, this is true, but in this game, most of the time, it's unneeded unless you want to perform a different role (ie, you raid/quest as dps, but like pvping as a healer).

 

Bioware has flat out said that they want their talent trees set up so that there is no need for a dedicated pvp spec. There are 3-6 talent point sin every build that you can put aside for mobility/survivability/utility, which are generally considered pvp talents. A "dedicated" pvp build may be 3-4 points different than a "pve" build, but it's honestly not that big of a difference.

 

The biggest 2 factors I see for dedicated pvp specs is in low to mid levels, where people like trying out hybrid builds (which Bioware has specifically said they do NOT want...if a hybrid build is super successful, it WILL be nerfed), or for group queuing. I can see wanting at least ONE healer if you are pvping with friends/guildmates, and if none of the players are full time healers, I dont see a down side to letting one of them (hell, even ALL of them) save a healing spec just to make things more fun for themselves. More healers in pvp is NEVER a bad thing.

[ferroz]

invisipoet - you claim that dual spec doesnt "make anything easier"

 

well, YES is does. it allows you to be able to have 2 level 50 characters for the price of one.

Nope... it doesn't. You still have one character.

 

The only differences are

1. A high, flat/one one fee instead of a scaling, use dependent one.

2. Saved actionbar states

 

There's nothing easier there at all. Just less tedious. Tedium != hard.

 

thats 50% off the retail price. sounds EASY to me.

it's not 50% off the retail price

 

even if it were, Cheaper != easier

Edited January 10, 2012 by ferroz

[invispoet]

If you force dual spec in the game, someone like me, who doesn't want a duel spec because I will be pressured by my friends/guildies to have my second spec to what they want, as well with getting all the gear so my second spec is ready to go at any time

 

The problem here is your 'friends', not the system. Man/Woman up and stop letting your friends tell you how to play. Dont keep everyone else in the game from enjoying something simply because you're too timid to resist peer pressure.

 

On top of that, lots of people ENJOY being geared/skilled at multiple roles. They like to be good at EVERY aspect of their character. If you only want to play 1/3 of your character, and only participate in 1/4 of the game, that's fine, but there is no reason to spend your time trying to shoot down a feature that will make EVERY group aspect of this game (hint, that means EVERY aspect) easier, more convenient, and more fun for nearly everyone.

 

If you want dual specing, go back to WoW please, it's already implemented over there. Don't pollute a new game with old ideas.

 

Using an automobile to get from point A to point B is an "old" idea, and saves BILLIONS of people COUNTLESS amounts of time.

 

WoW's dual spec idea is NOT an old one, and is so popular that it has been inluded in nearly every mainstream MMORPG that has been released since it was implimented. It's like having a player on your team that can play more than one position. He's still better at one of them, but he can fill another if needed...you dont go and fire the other player because you have on person that can fill either/or.

 

I STILL have yet to tell me, factually, how dual spec 'ruins the game'. Do people magically get more stupid when it's put in? Do raid bosses decide that they dont need to show up, and just spawn a chest when you get there? Do other players look at you and say "holy crap, that guy has TWO spec's, I'm not messing with him!!"

 

It doesnt change the game. All it does is make it easier to form groups that have a chance of succeeding at group content.

Edited January 10, 2012 by invispoet

[KennethHoover]

Because the game MUST be more like Candy Panda Land or it's a total failure, right....?

[PhillyBop]

The problem here is your 'friends', not the system. Man/Woman up and stop letting your friends tell you how to play. Dont keep everyone else in the game from enjoying something simply because you're too timid to resist peer pressure.

 

On top of that, lots of people ENJOY being geared/skilled at multiple roles. They like to be good at EVERY aspect of their character. If you only want to play 1/3 of your character, and only participate in 1/4 of the game, that's fine, but there is no reason to spend your time trying to shoot down a feature that will make EVERY group aspect of this game (hint, that means EVERY aspect) easier, more convenient, and more fun for nearly everyone.

 

Man up? Please tell me, how long would you want to deal with a friend who constantly tells you 'Sorry, even though I know I CAN help you, i'm not going to'? I know I wouldn't.

 

Like I said, I don't want it, and don't force your opinions onto me please. If you want dual spec, there are plenty of games out there that have that system implemented. It's amazing, people ***** and complain about how all games are like WoW, and when a game doesn't do it like WoW, the exact same people pipe up and say 'well the most popular game in the genre does it!'

 

Stop polluting new games with old ideas.

[ferroz]

Why do you feel that you can enjoy leveling, FPs, OPs, and space, but you can only enjoy PvP if you have a talent spec that is designed only for PvP?

Because I pvp completely differently than I do pve. I like to heal in pvp, but have 0 interest in doing it in pve. I like tanking in pve but have 0 interest in running a tank spec in pvp.

 

Are you saying you can only enjoy PvP if you are great at it, being good isn't enough?

No, I'm saying that I only enjoy it in certain roles, and that they aren't the same as what I enjoy in pve.

 

He's probably saying that being mediocre isn't enough.

 

 

<sarcasm> You might as well remove all forms of currency. Why should the need to purchase things restrict people from enjoying the game to it's fullest? Why should someone who spends their money carefully have more money than someone who doesn't? <sarcasm>

Slippery slope fallacy.

[sskinzz]

It's NOT two level 50 characters. My Mercenary doesnt all of a sudden become a tank just because I can respec. He doesnt become a melee dps. Even with dual spec, there are limitations and choices. I can choose to have two healing specs, maybe one for pure healing out put, and one for surivability. I can choose to have one for pve, and one for pvp. I can choose to have one for dps soloing (which honestly isnt needed, Gault does nearly as much dps as I do in dps spec on single targets). I could even choose to have 2 dps specs, because Arsenal is very stationary, and on some fights, I would rather be more mobile (pyrotech).

 

None of this is the same as having another level 50 character, and I could even argue that getting GOOD at all these specs would take just as long (or longer) than levelling another character. All dual speccing does is allow people to form groups more quickly, and guilds to be able to raid if one key person can't make it for some unforseen reason.

 

isnt dual spec, the ability for example, a sith juggernaut being able to switch from a "tank" to a "dps" character?

 

if it is, then that is clearly getting 2 different roles for the price of 1

 

like i said in earlier post, most of the people in this thread probably are already at level 50, which doesnt take long. if you WANT the ability to respec, the option is already there. if you want the ability to switch the role of your ac for FREE and at NO inconvenience, that option is there also... role another toon.

 

i cant stand the way everything is getting dumbed down in games these days, just to convenience the adhd generations way of thinking of wanting everything without earning it, and wanting it NOW.

[ferroz]

Man up? Please tell me, how long would you want to deal with a friend who constantly tells you 'Sorry, even though I know I CAN help you, i'm not going to'? I know I wouldn't.

If they're actually saying something like "Yeah, I could respec to heal but I don't enjoy, so I won't" ... indefinitely.

 

Like I said, I don't want it, and don't force your opinions onto me please.

Noone is forcing anything on you. If you don't want it, don't use it. But it's asinine to insist that it not exist just because you don't want it. It's existence has 0 effect on you as long as you choose not to use it.

 

Stop polluting new games with old ideas.

Old ideas like class = role?

[Serranex]

I think you are being the ridiculous one here, you are blatantly insulting people because their point of view opposes yours. It's people like you who ends up getting threads locked up because mods feel that the forum thread is doing nothing productive.

 

If you force dual spec in the game, someone like me, who doesn't want a duel spec because I will be pressured by my friends/guildies to have my second spec to what they want, as well with getting all the gear so my second spec is ready to go at any time. As of right now, you CAN switch your spec, sure it's annoying to do, and dual spec will be easier for you, but you can switch your spec. If dual spec is released, I won't exactly have a choice but to get it, because if I don't, it will be an x next to my guild application.

 

Then don't. Don't get it. Join guilds that don't require it. It's not that difficult no? Or say explicitly in your guild app "Will ONLY DPS/Tank/Heal". To be honest, it's not that big of a stretch. In WoW, when a healer applies, they apply as a healer, and they are basically expected to heal. If a healer WANTS to offspec, we let them. When a fury warrior apps, we don't immediately make them get a tank offspec (unless they request it). Obviously having flexible people is better than not, but you really only need 3-4 flexible people in a 25 man raid, or 1-2 in a 8 or 16 person op. You don't HAVE to be one of these people.

 

You have no problem pushing what you want onto me, yet you get pissed when I want to to keep things as is, where people have the option to re-spec if they want to, and someone like me isn't bottlenecked into the system of your choice. I wasn't happy when dual speccing was introduced to WoW, because I went from being a primary healer, to a swing class, doing healing when needed, and then switching to DPS when needed. That's not how I play, but like I said, if I didn't go this route, they would have replaced me with someone who would do the dual spec.

 

So here's the thing, you got asked to DPS, and you said yes. Your other option is to sit out and have your guild recruit a DPS, then rotate you two in between fights depending on the encounter. Which do you prefer? It's not a bad thing to think the latter. We had some great healers asking to sit out in Firelands since healer requirements ranged from 6 to 4, and the healers really did not want to DPS at all - much less at a level that's required of them for the extremely hard bosses.

 

Dual speccing gets introduced, I may as well go back to WoW, and play a game that has plenty of end game content, but uses the same system. 'But this is Star Wars and not WoW!' That's nice, in the end, they are exactly the same, level up by killing stuff, PvP, helping out computer generated characters. Reach max level, then run the same dungeons over and over and over, so why not go with a game that has lots of end game content?

 

If you want dual specing, go back to WoW please, it's already implemented over there. Don't pollute a new game with old ideas.

 

What in the world is this? Dual spec defines the end game in WoW? Jesus christ. I don't even know how to respond to this drivel.

[Bekkal]

isnt dual spec, the ability for example, a sith juggernaut being able to switch from a "tank" to a "dps" character?

 

if it is, then that is clearly getting 2 different roles for the price of 1

 

 

No, it isn't. Dual speccing allows you to play multiple facets of what your class (AC) is capable of, usually due to a hefty one-time fee (but not always, see Rift).

 

There are no downsides to allowing dual speccing, and numerous upsides.

[Avrose]

I don't want duel spec mostly for personal reasons. I think better gamers are made out of those who adapt.

 

I know its coming and I can't stop it but that's how I feel.

[sskinzz]

Nope... it doesn't. You still have one character.

 

The only differences are

1. A high, flat/one one fee instead of a scaling, use dependent one.

2. Saved actionbar states

 

There's nothing easier there at all. Just less tedious. Tedium != hard.

 

it's not 50% off the retail price

 

even if it were, Cheaper != easier

 

"cheaper != easier" is a good thing to you?

[Dabachelor]

Dual spec is coming they already said it is but people are still complaining about it! To all those who are gonna post the "I'm leaving if they do this....then GOODBYE!!" . When I play I want to see all the zone including heroic 4's spending 2-3 hrs praying for healer or tank is sad just to do an instance and everyone saying SKIP IT and just level is fine for them but no, I bought the game to see and experience all of it not just rush leveling.

[invispoet]

Man up? Please tell me, how long would you want to deal with a friend who constantly tells you 'Sorry, even though I know I CAN help you, i'm not going to'? I know I wouldn't.

 

Like I said, I don't want it, and don't force your opinions onto me please. If you want dual spec, there are plenty of games out there that have that system implemented. It's amazing, people ***** and complain about how all games are like WoW, and when a game doesn't do it like WoW, the exact same people pipe up and say 'well the most popular game in the genre does it!'

 

Stop polluting new games with old ideas.

 

Being one spec or another doesnt stop you from helping your friend. It also doesnt stop him from asking in general chat, guild chat, or party chat for help. Using your example, are you saying that NOW, your friends dont ask for help because you only have one spec? That they'll only start asking for help if you're given the option of a second spec? Keep in mind that THEY will also be given a second spec, and can respec to help themselves. All this does is make it easier for you to help your friends (if you want to). If you dont want to, then don't. Dual spec has NOTHING to do with this issue.

 

The topic of adding dual specs or not is NOT a petition. Bioware has already stated that they WILL add it. If you dont like it, you really should quit while you're ahead.

 

This has nothing to do with being like WoW or different than WoW. The fact of the matter is, Dual speccing is a concept that has revolutionized MMORPG gameplay by making it easier for EVERYONE to form groups for multiple purposes. These games are designed to be fun and to make profits. Dual spec gives everyone the chance to experience more content (because it's easier to form successful groups due to more people having tank/healing specs). When more people can experience the content, they have more fun, and the company makes more money.

 

Adding in dual spec hurts NO ONE. If you can't wrap your head around the fact that Dual spec has NOTHING to do with the skill of the player OR the quality of the gameplay overall (except the option to see more content), then, you, flat out, are NOT smarter than a 5th grader.

[Slopback]

@PhillyBop

 

As others said, you have an interesting idea about friends... Note, I'm not saying you have bad friends, I'm saying your view about the concept of friend is strange. As I said, I played with my shaman in WoW as dps. I never healed. I wasn't good at it, I didn't had the gear for it, I wouldn't want it because it was not fun. I said no, and my guild, my friends understood it.

 

Don't pollute a new game with old ideas.

 

Interesting thing to say about a game that has so many outdated features...

Edited January 10, 2012 by Slopback

[zootzoot]

There are 8 "Classes" per side. Not 24. Your choice is the AC you picked. Spec is the flavor of that AC. The hard choice is what AC to pick between the two options for each Core Class. It's not the spec you use. You can't even say pick your role since there are 4 AC's who have one Role..DPS.

 

All I see are people trying to force others to play with the same philosophy and to live with it. Very selfish. Since if Player A used Dual spec to have one Heal spec and one DPS and he went with Player B to a Flashpoint in his Heal spec Player B would never know. The fact that Player A was using Dual Spec and Player B wasn't wouldn't impact how either one enjoys the game.

Edited January 10, 2012 by zootzoot

[Serranex]

I don't want duel spec mostly for personal reasons. I think better gamers are made out of those who adapt.

 

I know its coming and I can't stop it but that's how I feel.

 

You're right.

 

The best gamers are the one that can adapt to both a healing role and a DPS role when given the correct tools.

 

Not the "omg, my guild is gonna ask me to DPS and I hate it WAHHHH" type.

[sskinzz]

No, it isn't. Dual speccing allows you to play multiple facets of what your class (AC) is capable of, usually due to a hefty one-time fee (but not always, see Rift).

 

There are no downsides to allowing dual speccing, and numerous upsides.

 

you can achieve playing multiple facets of your ac class without dual speccing....

 

but i guess that isnt convenient for you, since you will have to earn it?

[invispoet]

isnt dual spec, the ability for example, a sith juggernaut being able to switch from a "tank" to a "dps" character?

 

if it is, then that is clearly getting 2 different roles for the price of 1

 

Sith Juggernauts are ALREADY capable of changing from a tanking character to a dps character. By your views, they are ALREADY capable of being '2 different roles for the price of 1" Dual spec doesnt change this. All it does is make it so the rest of the group/raid doesnt have to sit around waiting for him to travel back tot he fleet, respec, re-do his bars, and then come back to wherever they are. It's not giving you anything you dont already have the option to do, it's just making it less of a pain on the REST of your group.

 

 

like i said in earlier post, most of the people in this thread probably are already at level 50, which doesnt take long. if you WANT the ability to respec, the option is already there. if you want the ability to switch the role of your ac for FREE and at NO inconvenience, that option is there also... role another toon.

 

If the ability to respec is already there, and we can do it any time we want, WHY is it such a horrible thing to ask that we save two FREQUENTLY USED spec's for convenience? Again, it's not giving us anything we can't already do. It's just making it less of a pain to do it.

 

i cant stand the way everything is getting dumbed down in games these days, just to convenience the adhd generations way of thinking of wanting everything without earning it, and wanting it NOW.

 

How is dual spec dumbing the game down? Statements like these piss me off on a personal level. Do people all of a sudden turn into morons because they hit the 'dual spec' button? Do bosses magically fall over dead because the entire raid paid for dual spec?

 

I'd argue that it does the exact opposite, because now I can try to perfect multiple specs instead of one, and find the best uses for each. Yes, there are people that will suck at their 2nd spec...but guess what? most of those people suck at their primary spec already. Oce again, it's not adding in anything that's not already there.

No one is expecting dual spec be free, it should be a money sink.