Sith Assassin - Madness v Deception (end game pve)

[seahorsey]

So I've been trying to look around to find out which would be a better spec for end game pve dps and haven't been able to find any info.

 

Madness definitely has some decent AoE, but I'm just not sure whether it's single target dps is comparable to deception...

 

So was mainly just wondering if anyone had any insight on which spec is best to put out the maximum amount of possible dps either from personal experience or theory crafting etc??

[Theysay]

Deception is the better spec. Madness is a spec shared both by assassin's and sorcerers, but its obviously designed with sorcerers in mind imo. Its a popular sorc spec, but no decent assassin actually uses it outside leveling imo (leveling with madness is fairly easy, but there is no point in doing so. Better off leveling in one of the other two "real" assassin specs)

I think the dps for Madness would not be horrible for end game boss fights that last a while, since madness specked assassins have access to exactly 2 dots, the discharge dot and crushing darkness= but madness isn't really meant for assassins imo. Sorc's have more then 2 dots, and a lot of madness talents increase dot dmg.

 

Deception is the way to go, take advantage of that double bladed lightsaber. As madness, you are nothing but a wanabe sorc

Edited January 9, 2012 by Theysay

[Harambee]

I'd have to disagree.

 

You have 3 dots available to you (Lightning Discharge, Crushing Darkness, creeping terror), with the increased dmg from DoTs with deathmark, you are actually doing a lot of dmg. If you get a lot of Raze procs (aka free Crushing darkness) increased melee dmg from unearthed knowledge, thrash hits really hard.

 

But honestly, there are no combat parses with true data so it's really hard to say.

[Zsrai]

I think the dps for Madness would not be horrible for end game boss fights that last a while, since madness specked assassins have access to exactly 2 dots, the discharge dot and crushing darkness= but madness isn't really meant for assassins imo. Sorc's have more then 2 dots, and a lot of madness talents increase dot dmg.

 

Actually, Madness Assassins have 3 dots; Lighting Discharge, Crushing Darkness, and Creeping Terror (31 points in Madness). Madness Sorcs also have 3 dots; CD, CT, and Affliction. I do agree that Madness seems much better for Sorcs in general though.

[Theysay]

I'd have to disagree.

 

You have 3 dots available to you (Lightning Discharge, Crushing Darkness, creeping terror), with the increased dmg from DoTs with deathmark, you are actually doing a lot of dmg. If you get a lot of Raze procs (aka free Crushing darkness) increased melee dmg from unearthed knowledge, thrash hits really hard.

 

But honestly, there are no combat parses with true data so it's really hard to say.

 

except sorc's have access to affliction

5600 dmg over 15 secs. Still, do what you want. as long as you are actually using your abilities, you are prolly fine, its not like there is a god damn dps meter. YOU KNOW if you aren't being fair to ur guildies not trying to dps well enough. you KNOW it

[Theysay]

Actually, Madness Assassins have 3 dots; Lighting Discharge, Crushing Darkness, and Creeping Terror (31 points in Madness). Madness Sorcs also have 3 dots; CD, CT, and Affliction. I do agree that Madness seems much better for Sorcs in general though.

 

 

 

Yeah you are right, except discharge does exactly 1448 base dmg compared to 5600 LoL

[seahorsey]

I certainly agree that sorcs can better utilize the madness tree. I've tried madness but currently deception and do actuall enjoy its play style a lot more, so guess I'll stick with it for now.

 

I'm just one of those people that like to be putting out as much damage as possible with my current class... But until we get damage meters I guess it's a bit hard to tell which is the better spec.

[Randomgnome]

I've toyed around with both and I've so far been sticking to Madness. Deception did well when I tried it out but I felt like I was overly dependent on maul for damage. That meant I had to be behind the target to do the best damage possible, so I had to bring Khem everywhere. I like Khem and would probably use him regardless, but I didn't like the idea of being forced into Khem, so that kind of turned me off from Deception. Now that I'm a bit higher leveled (44) I'll probably give Deception another shot.

 

Something I did notice with deception is that I felt like I could dish out a lot more single target DPS, just as long as I was behind my target. I also felt that I had a bit more trouble dealing with the occasional add, but that could have been because I hadn't used the spec very much.

 

I also had a chance to do a bit of world PvP vs a JK. I lost once and won twice. I do think Madness felt better to PvP with because of the DOTs, but that again could have just been my inexperience.

 

I'll probably go thru Voss as Deception and see how it feels. I like to play the stealthy type class, but Madness for leveling felt a lot more efficient, so I used that.

[seahorsey]

I've toyed around with both and I've so far been sticking to Madness. Deception did well when I tried it out but I felt like I was overly dependent on maul for damage. That meant I had to be behind the target to do the best damage possible, so I had to bring Khem everywhere. I like Khem and would probably use him regardless, but I didn't like the idea of being forced into Khem, so that kind of turned me off from Deception. Now that I'm a bit higher leveled (44) I'll probably give Deception another shot.

 

I also had a chance to do a bit of world PvP vs a JK. I lost once and won twice. I do think Madness felt better to PvP with because of the DOTs, but that again could have just been my inexperience.

 

I can see what you mean with he leveling but I didn't mind using khem so it didn't reall bother me. The deception spec really shines later tiers of the tree when your shock and discharge can crit for the same if not more than your maul. You can take out mobs instantly and only using maul when you get procs for ignore armor. If I had it again I probably would have leveled as darkness tbh.

 

As for pvp I would choose deception over madness hands down, although I must admit when I just hit 50 it was a bit of a struggle due to lack of gear, but now after getting a few epics it really is an awesome spec.

[Warlyik]

I've yet to see any Deception or equivalently specced Shadow top my damage or kills in a warzone, either in group or solo, and I'm still missing a few champion pieces to boot. And I'm not even Biochem.

 

I run a 7/2/32 Madness spec with Dark Charge and a Shield. http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200McMZbZcMfRrrkRfz.1

 

As for PvE I tend to steal aggro fairly easily from tanks without guard on me, and with guard it can still be dicey the first minute or so. I often have to use Force Cloak just to reset.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Warlyik

[seahorsey]

I've yet to see any Deception or equivalently specced Shadow top my damage or kills in a warzone, either in group or solo, and I'm still missing a few champion pieces to boot. And I'm not even Biochem.

 

I run a 7/2/32 Madness spec with Dark Charge and a Shield. http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200McMZbZcMfRrrkRfz.1

 

As for PvE I tend to steal aggro fairly easily from tanks without guard on me, and with guard it can still be dicey the first minute or so. I often have to use Force Cloak just to reset.

 

Of course madness is going to put out more damage in wzs, the spec is based around an AoE that has like a 10 sec cd or whatever it is... Where deception is single target burst and I would think be more effective at going and taking out that healer that is topping everyone up quite quickly...

 

As for pve I also pull agro a lot with my crit happy deception spec always cloaking haha, but at least that sounds promising with madness should be putting some decent single target damage too.

[Warlyik]

It's a 15-sec CD.

 

I average about 300k damage in a full warzone game, with about 50 kills, and less than 5 deaths. Usually no deaths if I get some heals. From what I've seen, I'm one of only a handful that even puts up numbers like that with regularity.

[Zilod]

I've yet to see any Deception or equivalently specced Shadow top my damage or kills in a warzone, either in group or solo, and I'm still missing a few champion pieces to boot. And I'm not even Biochem.

 

I run a 7/2/32 Madness spec with Dark Charge and a Shield. http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200McMZbZcMfRrrkRfz.1

 

As for PvE I tend to steal aggro fairly easily from tanks without guard on me, and with guard it can still be dicey the first minute or so. I often have to use Force Cloak just to reset.

 

if you use dark charge is normal that you steal aggro as it boost the hate by a huge margin... so is not that you are stealing aggro because huge dps (as for example a BH) but because you are generating huge aggro

[upzie]

why do so many ppl think deception is about maul spam, if anything maul is one of the "least" used dps abilities :S

[Lacertus]

It's a 15-sec CD.

 

I average about 300k damage in a full warzone game, with about 50 kills, and less than 5 deaths. Usually no deaths if I get some heals. From what I've seen, I'm one of only a handful that even puts up numbers like that with regularity.

 

Gratz on padding damage with pointless, easily healed AoE. I'll stick with doing 250k damage, all single target and bursting down the healers who are yawning at your damage...

[Warlyik]

Rofl, ONE non-spammable ability in my arsenal is AoE so suddenly my entire catalog of overpowering damage is AoE and it all just magically gets healed away. Jealous much? On my server, healers are rightfully afraid of me. Pretty much everyone is afraid of me. When you throw around the damage I do, people notice.

 

Keep trying to justify playing specs that are disadvantaged. I prefer to be a threat from every angle and distance, as well as an asset to my team through other means, like taunting and guarding.

[theonepanda]

This is some pretty big derail from the OP.

 

I'm not sure how PvP got into this.

 

From my personal experience, deception hits like a truck, with big crits and great damage on bosses (i typically pull from the tank at least once during an encounter, so I'm always the one guarded).

 

If you like to see big numbers, go deception.

 

Madness has smaller numbers that tick more, but it seems a little disadvantaged in PvE, mostly because I can't really tell if their ult ability is worth using or not.

 

I haven't tested it thoroughly, but i'm sure it is at least viable. I'll test it next week.

[kidbs]

Rofl, ONE non-spammable ability in my arsenal is AoE so suddenly my entire catalog of overpowering damage is AoE and it all just magically gets healed away. Jealous much? On my server, healers are rightfully afraid of me. Pretty much everyone is afraid of me. When you throw around the damage I do, people notice.

 

Keep trying to justify playing specs that are disadvantaged. I prefer to be a threat from every angle and distance, as well as an asset to my team through other means, like taunting and guarding.

 

Why would a healer be afraid of you when they can easily cleanse your DoTs? You can kill bad healers you mean. Deception is the healer killing spec since the burst is far bigger and we have more interrupts. I can hit 300k if I want to focus solely on killing people. Damage/kills mean very little in warfront pvp to tell the truth.

[Fashooba]

Using deep Madness, do you actually see much for self-heals? I know there are several talents that will heal you based on your DoTs, but is it decent? Would you see more heals from using lightning charge for the extra DoT or more heals from dark charge (assuming you got the improved chance in the darkness tree).

 

 

Edit: I don't know why people are arguing about which spec is better .. honestly what I'd like to see is both specs are viable depending on the situation and your playstyle. So far there's only 1 person defending madness.. is that because everyone else rolled an assassin to be a rogue?

Edited January 10, 2012 by Fashooba

[theonepanda]

Using deep Madness, do you actually see much for self-heals? I know there are several talents that will heal you based on your DoTs, but is it decent? Would you see more heals from using lightning charge for the extra DoT or more heals from dark charge (assuming you got the improved chance in the darkness tree).

 

 

Edit: I don't know why people are arguing about which spec is better .. honestly what I'd like to see is both specs are viable depending on the situation and your playstyle. So far there's only 1 person defending madness.. is that because everyone else rolled an assassin to be a rogue?

 

I see madness as much more of a pvp tree, what with its utility talents, self healing, etc.

 

I have no numbers on it so I cannot say. I only know the deception side of the story.

[DarthRilous]

I like my madness assassin build. And yes, the heals add up, especially with dark charge and overcharge saber, ive seen heals over 300. As for which is better in pve, there are many fights where bosses have knock back, or you are at low health, and being in melee range can be dangerous. Being Madness gives you the ability to step back and cast...also your dots are doing damage while you are moving around. So far my biggest crit is 3200. Not sure what others see.

[Fashooba]

I'm only 31 at the moment, currently in deception spec. I enjoy it, but I'd like to know there are other options. Right now I can easily hit 1200, 900, 700, 600, 800, 1200 in a row, assuming someone else is distracting the target... kinda seems hard to top that, unfortunately.

 

With all the self healing, would it be possible to pop on a shield generator and tank in madness tree? Not flashpoints or anything, but just soloing/leveling/group questing.

[theonepanda]

I'm only 31 at the moment, currently in deception spec. I enjoy it, but I'd like to know there are other options. Right now I can easily hit 1200, 900, 700, 600, 800, 1200 in a row, assuming someone else is distracting the target... kinda seems hard to top that, unfortunately.

 

With all the self healing, would it be possible to pop on a shield generator and tank in madness tree? Not flashpoints or anything, but just soloing/leveling/group questing.

 

Not typically, as you must be in dark charge to use a shield generator (rather, your generator will not function unless you are in dark charge), which makes you unable to use your primary dot, and also kills your dps.

[Fashooba]

Yeah, sorry.. meant to mention being in dark charge stance.

[LordFallacy]

Ive run both deception and madness spec at level 50 PVE and from what i can tell they are ruffly the same deception hits hard for short periods of time aka burst dps and madness has alot of dots and is more sustained so really pick what ever you prefer to play. BTW you can easily pull off the tank in both specs madness i often pull twice but that may be just because my gear has improved since i switched.

 

 

oh and the healing from madness is hardly noticable

 

The reason i prefer madness spec is because

1. harder rotation, there alot of buff/debuff timers to watch and a decent priority list of abilities

2. several range abilities even 30 yard range which means i can dps while avoiding boss mechanics

3. sustained dps is better for boss fights while burst(deception) is better for weak bosses and trash

4. no as reliant on the positional requirments

 

 

heres my madness spec

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200Mc0MZhZcMfRrMkrfz.1

 

edit: btw stack crit>surge>power madness relys on alot of crit

Edited January 10, 2012 by LordFallacy