Patrick, Damion, and Daniel, please, throw us a bone.

[KetMalice]

Patrick, Damion, and Daniel,

 

I think as a crafting community we are pretty concerned at the state of things. Crafting at end game is almost useless. I personally, am extremely disappointed in the crafting system. As mainly a crafter in MMO's this is not at all what you said it was going to be. I think we all just want to know if we can switch to Biochem or if you have something in the works. I am honestly saddened by the state of crafting and the lack of communication from you 3. You have no idea how much relief would come from you just telling us something. Whether it is, no plans until after all bugs are fixed, or maybe in the future, just tell us something, please.

 

In your Developer Blog http://www.swtor.com/news/blog/20101203

 

You said this:

 

"Discovering and mastering Prototype and Artifact quality blasters takes considerably longer and requires much more player dedication. In The Old Republic, we want the crafting of such items – especially at the end game levels – to be a significant accomplishment. Our goal is for players to want to seek out renowned crafters who have learned the rarest schematics. Prototype and Artifact quality blasters will be exceptional, and their appearance and effectiveness will speak to their rarity and power.

 

Players progressing through The Old Republic will always desire better quality items, and crafters certainly want to provide those items to make a profit. We’ve worked hard to ensure that crafted items have an important place in The Old Republic’s economy, and that crafters will be well-rewarded for the effort they put into the Crew Skills system. In future updates, we’ll go further into detail about how we plan to address crafted items in the economy!

 

None of this holds true.

 

On November 15th in the Developer Tracker Damion Schubert said this

 

“The real test of the value of crafting is less about whether companions or players are swinging the hammer and tongs, and more about how the itemization of crafting is balanced in a way that the gear is useful. Crafting is important to the systems team, and we’re devoted to ensuring that crafted gear has a place in the economy, especially at the endgame, and doubly especially for the devoted crafters.

 

It’s worth noting that we really want the system to support the casual crafter (the guy who is taking crafting largely to outfit himself while leveling up) and the devoted crafter (the guy who wants to be known as the best Armormech in the galaxy). Supporting the former means making the system accessible and easy. Supporting the latter means ensuring that hard work can allow you to provide goods and services that almost no one in the galaxy can. The systems design team is striving to satisfy both groups of people.

 

My own personal goal is that some crafters can get so good that players all over the server seek them out. My problem being a crafter in most other MMOs is that you tend to become a guild’s pet at some point, and you’re expected to do all of the work for free. We want those devoted crafters to be exceptional enough that they can actually demand a price, and that people will actually break out of the guild in order to pursue those goods and services. The system isn’t there yet, but we have plans…”

 

None of that holds true except the part "The system isn’t there yet, but we have plans…"

 

Daniel Erickson said

 

"I was always a huge crafting fan in all the different games. There were games that I was just a full-time crafter in; that was all I did. And what’s great about crafting? The prestige is great, saying like, “Look, I can make these amazing things.” The social aspect is amazing. I want people coming to me and saying, “Hey I heard you’re the guy to do this.” I want to be able to support my friends; I want to be able to do all this. The exploration and the complexity and learning the system is really fun — I want to get deep into crafting, I want to learn how to do recipes that nobody else can do, I want to sort of master my system. The financial output, if it works well, is nice, right? Saying, “Hey, I’m actually good enough that I can make some money at this. I can do this piece.”

 

And

“ can’t talk too much about it, but you are going to be able to make stuff that is among the top stuff on the entire servers. And there are going to be people who know things that almost nobody else on the server knows how to do.”

 

And

“People who are really into crafting have a huge, complex system that they’re going to be able to go into and become masters at.”

 

And

“The best stuff is always going to come from other players, and then be made by other players. There will be stuff that you can craft that is among the best stuff in the entire game. So very close to the top-tier that you could get for anything.”

 

 

 

I guess I really don't need to say anything else.

Edited January 9, 2012 by KetMalice

[Dorlomin]

I'll bump this. I'd certainly like to hear about the "...we have plans" part. BW has been pretty quiet for as much discussion that has been going on here about crafting. Granted maybe 1% of the playerbase comes in here, but I think this is a much larger concern than what just the active forum members are portraying.

[KetMalice]

Yeah, I am pretty sure the community just wants to know what the thought process is. I mean I really want to just know if I can go ahead and drop Armstech because they are going to look at updating the crafting system in 6 months or if they have something in the works right now.

[Freeborne]

/ agree

 

 

And, Emmanuel Lusinchi

 

"To put it simply, we want moddable items to offer an alternate and optional loot system that allows players to customize their look and their stats with more freedom and without penalty for doing so. "

 

With how your set bonus's work, this is not the case.

 

(http://www.swtor.com/blog/some-clarifications-item-modifications )

 

 

Also...If Armstech makes Barrels, and Artificer makes Hilts...why can't Armormech and Synthweaving make Armor Mods?

 

There's three slots on an armor piece. Cybertech should be able to modify two, but the core Armor Mod should be made by the base profession.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Freeborne

[YarrowNaritus]

The fact that crafting isn't a dedicated class, to me, says it's always taking a backseat to combat and always be a thing that anyone who builds up enough credits can grind through in a week and become a master of ....whatever trade they pick.

 

I spent the majority of my swg career crafting droids and keeping my shop stocked. I'm pretty sure I'll never get a chance to open another droid shop (although I'm holding out some hope since this is probably the #2 mmo in the world right now, and if anyone has the ability to pull something ambitious off, it'll be tor). But if this thread gets any attention, don't overlook the fun that went along with 'running a shop' and setting up the factories for big runs of droids sub-components, assemblies, final units, creating huge runs of droid flight chips and programming them, and then the extras - color kits and batteries; it was a full time job, and I loved it.

 

While I'm dreaming, add a an 'adventure' planet where we can build cities, malls, and shops again. Or, even better, even more TORy, design some beautifully designed TOR style cities that guilds can purchase and build onto, with each building being a shop or a house or whatever we want to use it for.

 

Ok, I'm done dreaming for now.

[Drewser]

This thread deserves a bump.

 

I really hope they plan to boost crafting in upcoming patches. I was in the process of leveling my main and 2 alts in biochem, cybertech, armstech but don see much of point of continuing with the last two given the current state of level 48-50 crafting.

[Blackhalo]

I would love to see a reply. I had huge plans for having various crafting characters but those plans seem to be on hold.

[Rogmar]

Bump, Armstech is literally worthless.

[Xurk]

the only crafting system that allows "server sought" crafters; is one where recipes and materials are so rare as to make the results not worth the effort compared to the alternatives.

 

the problem is this. if i join a raiding group, I get X level loot. If im willing to PVP, I get Y level loot. if im not interested in either of those things then i get either X or Y minus 1 loot.

 

IE no matter what, you must raid or pvp to get the best rewards. being a crafter is merely a side effect of that.

 

you are not a crafter. your raid group has a crafter. the reason why you become a "guild pet" is because its the guild's time investment that makes you a crafter, not your own.

 

Bioware, Figure out a way where *I* can become a crafter thats worthy of note, rather than simply a raider with a tradeskill.

 

right now everything im seeing is raiders with trade skills. im still enjoying the game though, so you have time. I should be level 50 in about 2-3 weeks. at that point if my dailies replace my tradeskills, yea, i dont really have a reason to keep playing.

If i really want to raid, i already have wow for that. I already have established characters for that. i have no reason to learn it all over again in a game that doesnt even allow me to setup a useful UI yet.

 

I came to starwars to get away from that, not to change the way it looks.

 

add skill failures on crafting.

add exceptional procs beyond simply single augment slots.

add recipe choices like adding extra materials for a chance of better results.

 

IE take out the static, wow style crafting system and replace it with something more dynamic.

 

cause at this point waiting 20 minutes or more for results isnt compelling. and DEing oh, 're'ing stuff to learn recipes is simply a rote process of throwing away money for recipes. its neat and all, but its also done at some point with no continuing value. the only thing it does is separate a new tradeskiller from an established one "ie it takes XXX hours or YYY purchases to learn all base recipes"

 

we need something more than that. where is my questing to discover new recipes? where is my questing to get rare tradeskill mats.

[--Grim--]

Love the campanion crafting system.

 

It's too bad it is a pointless waste of time.

 

They need to acknowledge the issues and tell us if a fix is coming. If not then just eliminate crafting from the game.

[_Flin_]

Are there actually any other things than the White and Magenta Power Crystals that are anything like that?

 

Well, orange crit gear.

[Lazzerswords]

Crafting gear is stepping stone to raiding and hardmodes, and is NOT supposed to replace such gear.

 

I think alot of no life EQ/UO/SWG players who think casuals should have to get the best gear from you is hilarious. I'm not paying for your exorbitant priced gear. Get over it , I'd rather fight monsters and earn loot rather than buy gear priced for people who pay chinses credit farmers.

[jakran]

add skill failures on crafting.

 

The entire rest of your post except for the above quoted line was very well thought out and I agreed with much of it. This one line, however, gave me flashbacks to EverQuest tradeskills.

 

The bad kind of flashback.

 

The kind where I remember literally farming for a week to get the components for ONE combine. Where upon finally getting the required components, I stop for half an hour and check three different sites to make sure that I have the right stuff, that I'm not missing anything, and that I'm using the right recipe. Where I then delay for another hour because I'm nervous about finally hitting the combine button. Where upon finally working up the nerve to hit the combine button, I position my pointer over it, then turn away from the screen and clench my eyes shut, and finally hit the button. And then turn back to the screen, find out the combine has failed, and all my components are gone, and I've got nothing for all my effort and the next thing I know I'm waking up smeared in blood.

 

That last phrase, I was kidding about. The rest I was not. Please trust me when I tell you that skill failures are a bad idea.

[Darcmoon]

Also...If Armstech makes Barrels, and Artificer makes Hilts...why can't Armormech and Synthweaving make Armor Mods?

 

There's three slots on an armor piece. Cybertech should be able to modify two, but the core Armor Mod should be made by the base profession.

 

I feel I should point out that Cybertech only makes 2 of the 4 at the moment (Armoring and Mods). Armstech makes the barrels and Artificing makes the hilts and enhancements.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Darcmoon

[cheggs]

Ok started of thinking 90% crafters are lazy.

 

Aim - 62

End - 50

Power - 50

Alacrity - 60

+ augment 28 power for a total 78 power

 

The first token is

 

Aim - 96 what works out as about maybe what 6 bonus damage/healing. And the crit would be like 0.1 or even less.

End - 81 what is about 250ish extra health as a healer/dps that shouldn't be hit.

power - 36 what works out as about 10 less bonus damage/healing.

Alacrity - 40 thats 20 less not matter how you see it.

 

The extra 30 aime does not add even near as much power and the crit is so small it don't add much ether on the token gear but the stats that do count are much higher on crafted gear.

 

So the Armormech and synthweave are fine they are very good tbh for healers and dps. The tanking gear would have higher damage mitigation but less endurance so a mix of crafted and first raid drop gear would be a great set up I bet. And healers would love that.

 

Just cos you guys are to lazy to work the numbers out stop crying for nerfs and buffs.

Edited January 10, 2012 by CommunitySupportEN

[Lazzerswords]

Ok started of thinking 90% crafters are lazy now gonna change that to idiots.

 

Aim - 62

End - 50

Power - 50

Alacrity - 60

+ augment 28 power for a total 78 power

 

The first token is

 

Aim - 96 what works out as about maybe what 6 bonus damage/healing. And the crit would be like 0.1 or even less.

End - 81 what is about 250ish extra health as a healer/dps that shouldn't be hit.

power - 36 what works out as about 10 less bonus damage/healing.

Alacrity - 40 thats 20 less not matter how you see it.

 

The extra 30 aime does not add even near as much power and the crit is so small it don't add much ether on the token gear but the stats that do count are much higher on crafted gear.

 

So the Armormech and synthweave are fine they are very good tbh for healers and dps. The tanking gear would have higher damage mitigation but less endurance so a mix of crafted and first raid drop gear would be a great set up I bet. And healers would love that.

 

Just cos you guys are to lazy to work the numbers out stop crying for nerfs and buffs.

 

lol finally some sanity

[OsarionRDM]

Id like some dev responses as well.

[KetMalice]

Ok started of thinking 90% crafters are lazy now gonna change that to idiots.

 

Aim - 62

End - 50

Power - 50

Alacrity - 60

+ augment 28 power for a total 78 power

 

The first token is

 

Aim - 96 what works out as about maybe what 6 bonus damage/healing. And the crit would be like 0.1 or even less.

End - 81 what is about 250ish extra health as a healer/dps that shouldn't be hit.

power - 36 what works out as about 10 less bonus damage/healing.

Alacrity - 40 thats 20 less not matter how you see it.

 

The extra 30 aime does not add even near as much power and the crit is so small it don't add much ether on the token gear but the stats that do count are much higher on crafted gear.

 

So the Armormech and synthweave are fine they are very good tbh for healers and dps. The tanking gear would have higher damage mitigation but less endurance so a mix of crafted and first raid drop gear would be a great set up I bet. And healers would love that.

 

Just cos you guys are to lazy to work the numbers out stop crying for nerfs and buffs.

 

First token-What are you even talking about? Don't even attempt to tell me I am lazy. You also forgot to give the most important stat of all. Tech Power.

 

My 2 Mastercraft weapons I use, and showing you how unlazy I am:

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e5/KetMalice/Screenshot_2012-01-09_18_12_16_114914.jpg

 

 

And the easy mode Champion weapon:

 

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e5/KetMalice/Screenshot_2012-01-09_18_05_26_441482.jpg

 

 

The problem is that Mastercraft aren't even on par with Champion weapons. Do you understand how hard it is to get a Mastercraft? I created 37 weapons to get my 2 Mastercraft weapons for myself. So the only weapons that are even worth using are Mastercraft-which are extremely expensive to make in materials, and has a very rare Proc. Which means people will only buy Mastercraft. I have had Mastercraft weapons of several different weapons for sale on my server for 50k, and normal ones for 5k (they vendor for 1.95k), and I rarely sell anything. There are hundreds of 50's that can use my weapons...

 

 

So please, call me the idiot again.

[cheggs]

First token-What are you even talking about? Don't even attempt to tell me I am lazy. You also forgot to give the most important stat of all. Tech Power.

 

My 2 Mastercraft weapons I use, and showing you how unlazy I am:

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e5/KetMalice/Screenshot_2012-01-09_18_12_16_114914.jpg

 

 

And the easy mode Champion weapon:

 

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e5/KetMalice/Screenshot_2012-01-09_18_05_26_441482.jpg

 

 

The problem is that Mastercraft aren't even on par with Champion weapons. Do you understand how hard it is to get a Mastercraft? I created 37 weapons to get my 2 Mastercraft weapons for myself. So the only weapons that are even worth using are Mastercraft-which are extremely expensive to make in materials, and has a very rare Proc. Which means people will only buy Mastercraft. I have had Mastercraft weapons of several different weapons for sale on my server for 50k, and normal ones for 5k (they vendor for 1.95k), and I rarely sell anything. There are hundreds of 50's that can use my weapons...

 

 

So please, call me the idiot again.

 

Ok this post was meant to be in a different thread so makes me a forum idiot but not a crafting Idiot.

But still if you look I am on about Synthweaving and Armormech if you notice I even say it in the post. And I called 90% of crafters Idiots look at the crafting forums. But even then you stand your weapons next to a pve weapon of the same level and I bet the stats wont be as shocking. So in this case my view that only Cybertech being behind has changed to add armstech as well. But unlike 90% of this forum I can admit I was wrong.

[Obbu]

Crafting doesnt exist on its own - PvP and PvE content both need to provide crafting content.

 

Yes, the mission skill system provides a means to manage some of the schematics, materials and so on, but above all - crafting needs to be integrated into the relevant game system.

 

Crafters should be able to get pvp-based schematics from pvp - and these should require pvp-based materials.

 

Likewise with PvE.

 

Likewise with space combat.

 

If you implement a system where a crafter needs to do the REing, as well as grind a certain rare mat from a certain content, in order to create gear relevant for that content, then you implement a multi-layer system which can measure 'devotion' to crafting on a wider spread, than simply churning through REs and hoping for a lucky proc.

 

The current system is a good ground works, but we need to have more integration with the game systems - crafters should not be a system that is completely seperated from the main game, in order for it to be powerful it needs to provide:

 

 

• Schematic drops from PvP
  
• Rare materials that only spawn in world pvp hotspots - perhaps only during times of conflict even
  
• Rare materials bought with pvp comms
  
• Gated gear that requires people to PvP lots to use it
  

 

 

 

• Schematic drops from PvE
  
• Rare materials that can only be harvested upon instance/raid completion
  
• Gated gear that requires people to PvE lots to use it
  

 

 

 

• Schematic drops from space combat
  
• Rare materials that can only be recieved via space combat
  
• Rare materials bought with fleet comms
  
• Gated gear that requires people to participate in space combat lots to use it
  

 

 

 

If the current situation is:

 

PvP gear > Crafted gear for pvp, therefore ignore crafted gear

 

(or the pve equivalent)

 

Then the reverse is:

 

Crafted gear > PvP gear, therefore buy your bestinslot and dont bother grinding pvp.

 

The solution is to require crafters to pvp to get pvp schema, and then to require the end user to have a relevant valor rank, or other type of 'gate' to be able to use it.

 

 

Integrate the content and it starts to maintain relevance in both directions.

[Bansheedragon]

I feel I should point out that Cybertech only makes 2 of the 4 at the moment (Armoring and Mods). Armstech makes the barrels and Artificing makes the hilts and enhancements.

 

You forgot the color crystals which are also made by Artifice.

They may not amount to much, but they do add to your stats as well.

[Amdarius]

The fact that crafting isn't a dedicated class, to me, says it's always taking a backseat to combat and always be a thing that anyone who builds up enough credits can grind through in a week and become a master of ....whatever trade they pick.

 

I spent the majority of my swg career crafting droids and keeping my shop stocked. I'm pretty sure I'll never get a chance to open another droid shop (although I'm holding out some hope since this is probably the #2 mmo in the world right now, and if anyone has the ability to pull something ambitious off, it'll be tor). But if this thread gets any attention, don't overlook the fun that went along with 'running a shop' and setting up the factories for big runs of droids sub-components, assemblies, final units, creating huge runs of droid flight chips and programming them, and then the extras - color kits and batteries; it was a full time job, and I loved it.

 

While I'm dreaming, add a an 'adventure' planet where we can build cities, malls, and shops again. Or, even better, even more TORy, design some beautifully designed TOR style cities that guilds can purchase and build onto, with each building being a shop or a house or whatever we want to use it for.

 

Ok, I'm done dreaming for now.

 

Yep. What this dev team really needed is more dreamers like this guy. What we got is a game that, while introducing some neat concepts like crew skills and having your companions run missions/build stuff for you (which I love), is very underwhelming in its overall implementation.

 

The "Space Combat" should've been more of a pod racing style of game. Space Combat should've been real space combat ala X-wing vs. Tie Fighter or equivalent.

 

As for crafting.. Crafting is just.. well.. very disappointing. The only "unique" things I can make are recipes I get from random missions and those are just orange gear or blue gear that very few people are going to buy (and that don't add a lot of real value other than appearance). There is no reason anybody would ever seek me out despite me being a dedicated crafter (and really, there's not much you can do to be a "dedicated" crafter in this game given that you, as a character, can't build anything.. all you can do is browse the GTN for schematics that don't really give you anything of value to build and harvest nodes from planets).

 

In SWG, I was one of the better known weaponsmiths on Chilastra (behind Ket Malice). People often sought me out because I had stockpiled a bunch of the rare exceptional resources that came along and was able to craft some pretty nice weapons on demand. I would make a LOT of money selling these, but the people I was selling to could easily afford them and loved them.

 

Nowhere in SWTOR does the system provide for or allow for that type of interaction. There is no reason to seek out a particular crafter. There is nothing I can do that Joe Schmoe can't do in a few days through levelling up and then RE'ing gear..

 

No player shops. No point in end game crafting as a synthweaver..

 

So disappointing.

[Maxell_Snow]

The only benefit to pursuing a crafting class at this point is to outfit yourself with 'medicore gear' as you level and/or save you money buy allowing you to not spend it on meds or additional mods.

 

There is no market for many items throughout the crafting tree because A. they are readily accessible via loot or npc vendors. or B. access to the GTN is so limited. It has been commented by many that it is difficult to use. Simple solution would be to add a terminal on player ships.

 

What disturbes me the most is the lack of market for low-mid range items while we are in the initial stages of this mmo. If you were to graph the relative levels of players it would undoubtedly lean towards more low-mid levels than level 50 toons at this point. Demand should be there. It just isn't. That does not bode well for the future of crafting within tor unless something is changed.

[Amdarius]

I purchased an outfit and weapons for my new Imperial Agent alt. Prices were so low I was able to spend about 5k to buy an entire green/blue/purple outfit. Probably wouldn't have bothered buying anything if prices were high because (1) You get so many items from quests that you really don't need to buy anything; and (2) Having slightly better gear makes almost no difference whatsoever in what you can do in the game. It's not like I'm going to be able to solo 2 elites now because I have uber gear, and it's not likely I wouldn't be able to take down any single group of mobs or a single elite mob even if I was just geared in basic quest reward and looted gear.

 

Besides, the whole crafting vs. quest reward vs. loot issue, is the whole thing that the game is designed for you be able to complete your quests solo. Which means they have to some extent cater to the lowest common demoninator (or at least they have done so in this game). Which means that getting top end gear really doesn't matter. It's almost a cosmetic change (or increases the rate at which you kill mobs by a wholly negligible amount).

 

When the quality of your gear doesn't matter, you're perfectly fine using quest rewards and basic gear all day long. Why spend hard earned cash (that you're probably going to pointlessly waste building up your own crafting skill) for a +4 endurance that, frankly, doesn't matter?

[djvapid]

What people seem to want out of a game is something alike to Star Wars Galaxies. A game that doesn't absolutely require you to go fight x amount of creatures.

 

A game that allows you to choose a "crafting" class (so to speak) and gain levels through crafting and providing a player-run economy that could hold its own.

 

Unfortunately, SWG is dead and the kind of game you're talking about doesn't really exist and won't - because the amount of players who enjoy this sort of game are far, far outnumbered by people who prefer a thematic rail shooter.

 

SWTOR has introduced some novel concepts. Completely voiced over, a new approach to crafting, etc. It's all been done before, but not in the entirety that Bioware has done it.

 

Small steps. I doubt you'll see many MMOs in the future that aren't equally voiced over. The standards have been set, people won't want it any other way.

 

So we've accomplished /some/ good things as a consumer. It's important to look at the glass as if it were half full.

 

Which leads me back to point: you won't see something like crafting holding it's own up (even SWG went with the NGE, which everyone universally agrees ruined the game). Developers think we want rail shooters, raiding and pvp.

 

They apparently don't think we want to create our own economy and have (gasp) non-combat classes for crafting and such.

 

Here's a tip: find me a game that does away with all NPC vendors and doesn't demand that you follow a set path for progression and you'll find your "perfect game" as you guys seem to want to see it.

 

But to conclude and in a "nod" toward Obi-Wan from a New Hope:

 

"This is not the game you're looking for."