Why do so many here take joy in wanting this game to fail?

[ColonelColt]

You can call it whatever you want, but its still hating. Nothing you have posted has given the impression that you aren't one of a very vocal minoirty that wants to see something fail just to prove you right.

 

And while you clearly don't like the large scale MMOs, clearly millions of others do, whether they play WoW, EQ2, CoH, Champions, STO, Rift, Aion, etc. This appears to be an issue for you, and despite your constant objections, you clearly hate the game, and want it to fail for no other reason than it makes you happy.

 

Thats a hater.

 

Just because you call me a hater and say I want to see it go under just because it "makes me happy" doesn't make it true. You can believe what you want. If you want to shove your head in the sand and sing to yourself, go ahead. But it doesn't make you right.

[kalexkhan]

Uh, there are mmos with small budgets that continue to be made, including both korean and indie mmos. Surprise surprise, though, when people talk about the 'mmo genre' they completely ignore such games and focus instead on the AAA titles. Perhaps instead of spending $60 to try out a game you already know you're not going to like, you can try out any number of smaller titles aching for attention and probably won't cost nearly as much?

 

 

 

But so far this game and other 'WoW clones' haven't gone under. They've not had WoW's success, but they have done well enough to stay out of the red. Going after low-hanging fruit isn't a bad business model.

 

Maybe you shouldn't have bought a WoW clone and supported it, then? Instead of whining about a AAA title(and actively spending your money on it), try spending that same effort supporting smaller scale mmos.

 

Good advice.

 

Personally I knew swotr wasn't going to break new mmo ground, but I bought it cause the idea of a bioware game I could play with friends is awesome.

 

I'll even say its worth the box price already, it's been fun. However, I'm disappointed that I don't think it's worth a monthly sub. No big deal, I can come back later if I feel they make it worth it.

 

The lack of great mmo hooks, and the subtle gradual iterations on things are just too lacking. Everything I'm left with reminds me of games I'm tired of still.

[hiemdall]

what i get tired of hearing and seeing is that every game that comes out has to be a WoW clone. Wow was not the begining and ending of all mmo's wow took like all mmo's some features from other mmo's and used them in there game system. and the biggest problem with free to play games is THEY ARE NOT REALLY FREE TO PLAY.you buy from a cash shop and the more you can buy for your char. the better your char. is but if you can't afford to buy then your char. will sux i.e. unbalanced game play due to how much or how little money you can put into your char. not to mention if you want to have more then 1 char. with a sub at least they have to adhere to giving us updated and more content because that is what we are paying for. free to play spend your money but they are not obligated to get you regular updates and content.

[dyves]

See, you're wrong. In the MMO genre there really can only be one big dog. The reason for this is because every dog is the exact bloody same, or terribly small. All the big MMOs with good budgets are all wow clones. But wow already exists, so either they dethrone wow or wow kills them. There is not enough room out there for two WoWs. Any other unique MMO is terribly small, not made by triple a dev's or released by triple a publishers. They all have small budgets, small teams, and little marketing. As such they are never amazingly successful.

 

So the only way to beat this trend is to have one of two things. Either triple a MMOs go out all together, or people stop making triple A wow clones and start making triple A unique MMOs.

 

BS, for the simple reason that before WoW, other MMO's besides EQ were enjoying a large degree of success as well: AC, UO, DAoC, SWG, they were all there and successful and definitely not the same as EQ, just as EQ wasn't the same as UO that came before it and was hugely successful too, and still after EQ came out.

 

That kind of black&white thinking is simply moronic and a clear sign of lack of imagination and insight of (MMO) history.

 

If you'd use even a degree of common sense and objective reasoning, you'd see that there are ALREADY AAA MMO's being made that are different, NEXT TO AAA MMO's that are traditional themepark style.

SWTOR - traditional themepark

TERA - traditional themepark but with action oriented combat mechanics

GW2 + TSW - themepark, but non-traditional, non-WoW style

ArcheAge - themepark/sandbox hybrid

Firefall and Planetside 2 - MMOFPS

 

Those are MMO's that we can expect next to an SWTOR, and that would be able to be successful or entertaining even if themepark MMO's like WoW, LotrO, Aion, Rift and SWTOR are still being played by other MMO gamers.

[Astron_]

IMO, if the game fails it serves BW right for being yet another developer who, rather than try to create something worthy of support, just copies the skinner-box approach perfected by someone else in order to make money. As a gamer I'm personally tired of being treated as a walking wallet by game developers. I'm tired of developers designing games--especially MMO's-- as money-printing machines and forgetting that before they get their money they should probably make a good game. Instead they fall back on IP's that are already established knowing they can fleece an existing fanbase and exploit their love of the property, and do so with little risk because fanboys are so skilled at self-deception.

 

The fanboys then fall all over themselves to defend a weak, poorly developed product because they can't bear to see thier beloved object of adoration tarnished. The developers know this in advance and depend on it. Rather than take great pains to release a polished product the developer then comes to think they can get away with releasing prematurely because of the forebearance of loyal fans. The know they can rely on those fans to do everything possible to marginalize those who have higher expectations as "entitled" or otherwise unreasonable.

 

And so we see the same mistake repeated over and over again, and the same apparently befuddled reaction by developers who just don't understand why so many people are unsubscribing to their product. Maybe, eventually, one of these triiple-A developers will stop looking at their MMO project purely as an investment with the potential to finance future game-development, and realize that first the MMO needs to be a worthwhile product in and of itself.

 

BW has built up some bad karma in my book. This once excellent company sold its soul to EA, and immediately started offering up purely capital-generating devices like DLC's; and then their first product designed solely as an EA subsidiary (DA2) wasn't even a complete product, and was obviously designed merely as a foundation for selling more DLC's.

 

Big game conglomerates like EA and Activision keep searching for more and more ways to make your games hobby something that you have to keep feeding money into, rather than the old way of simply putting out a good, complete game. EA brags to its investors about continually searching for methods of monetizing IP's, like DLC's. When EA announces something like TOR you can just see the dollar-signs in their eyes when they're doing it. The money is all they care about. They don't care about the quality of the product, whether they are giving good customer service, or whether they totally wreck the reputation of a once great developer like Bioware. All they care about is the bottom line.

 

So karma's a *****, and maybe EA will discover, as they did with Sims and Warhammer, that the MMO community is not so easily fleeced as the mass of WoW fanboys would lead them to believe.

 

Give us a finished product that works properly on release. Give us something that is truly differentiated rather than just being a re-skinned version of something else. And stop insulting our collective intelligence by asking us to subscribe to something that is so obviously still in development as, so far, every MMO released by EA has been.

 

I'm only sorry that a great company like Bioware has to be sullied by their unholy alliance to the EA mint.

 

Very nice post, sir.

[GraunKrynn]

I will never see another MMO like SWG as long as the wow clones reign supreme. And this is why I fight.

 

You fight by supporting the developer with your initial investment to tell other people to stop investing. Brilliant strategy.

 

Also I hated SWG. MMOs can co-exist. There are many other MMOs out there. WoW and SWTOR aren't the only 2. Go play the MMO you want or go develop it. Nobody is stopping you. Nobody is forcing you to play this.

[ColonelColt]

but it isn't preventing you from the game you like. Like I said, many MMOs out there to cater to all.

The only difference is, that the majority of MMO players aren't in them.

If it's a very large community you want, then you have to wonder if you can eat your cake and have it to?

 

I don't agree with many of the independent MMOs play styles.

But I don't wish them death.

I can happily share the MMO community with them.

 

Why can't you?

 

It is preventing me from the game I like, because as long as wow clones dominate the market, the kinds of games I like will never be made. It's easier to just copy wow and reskin it.

 

I support indie developers and small MMOs when they look good, but they're always overshadowed by the triple a wow clones, so no matter how good they might be, they will never succeed. You can share the MMO market because what you want is on top, so you can enjoy yourself. But would you be willing to share the market if it meant the types of games you enjoyed are never made? No, you wouldn't.

[Kurnea]

Voice acting adds... what to the game? Makes you care about NPCs? In what way? Is hearing them repeat the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over somehow more appealing then simply reading text, or skipping it all together? Will you still care about that quest giver on Balmorra in six months just because he was voiced?

 

For me, yes, that does heighten my enjoyment. It's a large part why I've enjoyed most Bioware games to date. I loved the VA and characters in the Baldur's Gate series(Minsc and Boo!), I loved Mass Effect(Shepard. Wrex.), I loved Dragon Age(Morrigan continues to be a favorite), and I love hearing my Imperial Sniper talk in a haughty British accent.

 

Like it or not, voice acting doesn't add anything to the game. It's a novelty, a gimmick. It's as innovative as the kinect... scratch that, at least the kinect is moving us closer towards Holodecks.

 

Like it or not, for many it does bring a lot to the table in regards to the story. VA is a prime reason many people buy and enjoy Bioware products. Now maybe you just don't "get it", I understand that. God knows there are games that I don't get. For instance, for the life of me I don't get the point of Madden games. However, I don't go out, buy a Madden game, and then question the point of playing football in a game as if it was pointless. I just don't buy the game to begin with.

 

I'll repeat since I don't think you get it: Many people seriously enjoy the voice-work in this game. It's a valid reason for buying TOR over other titles. You're simply one of many people that buys products without thinking about whether that product is really right for them.

[Cretinus]

"Why do so many here take joy in wanting this game to fail?"

 

Many of them are probably WoW players. The mind tells them that WoW is slowly dying and that it's time to move on and to find a new game. But the heart doesn't want to let WoW go and wishes any possible competitor to fail. This has nothing to do with SWTOR, it is much rather some sort of feeling guilty for even considering to leave WoW after so many yeras.

 

:eek:

[Kamiosoup]

Alot of us want the game to succeed so we can enjoy it as much as we can. But the fact of the matter is, the game really isn't up to much at the moment and there's still quite alot of work to be done.

 

People raise solid points and are instantly attacked by the Bioware white knighting inbreds who are programmed to give the same response: "Go back to WoW, kid."

 

This is why these forums are an embarrassment.

[Fraxture]

It is preventing me from the game I like, because as long as wow clones dominate the market, the kinds of games I like will never be made. It's easier to just copy wow and reskin it.

 

I support indie developers and small MMOs when they look good, but they're always overshadowed by the triple a wow clones, so no matter how good they might be, they will never succeed. You can share the MMO market because what you want is on top, so you can enjoy yourself. But would you be willing to share the market if it meant the types of games you enjoyed are never made? No, you wouldn't.

 

It's on top for a reason..

If you agree with it or not.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Fraxture

[ColonelColt]

BS, for the simple reason that before WoW, other MMO's besides EQ were enjoying a large degree of success as well: AC, UO, DAoC, SWG, they were all there and successful and definitely not the same as EQ, just as EQ wasn't the same as UO that came before it and was hugely successful too, and still after EQ came out.

 

That kind of black&white thinking is simply moronic and a clear sign of lack of imagination and insight of (MMO) history.

 

If you'd use even a degree of common sense and objective reasoning, you'd see that there are ALREADY AAA MMO's being made that are different, NEXT TO AAA MMO's that are traditional themepark style.

SWTOR - traditional themepark

TERA - traditional themepark but with action oriented combat mechanics

GW2 + TSW - themepark, but non-traditional, non-WoW style

ArcheAge - themepark/sandbox hybrid

Firefall and Planetside 2 - MMOFPS

 

Those are MMO's that we can expect next to an SWTOR, and that would be able to be successful or entertaining even if themepark MMO's like WoW, LotrO, Aion, Rift and SWTOR are still being played by other MMO gamers.

 

The games you listed first were all in time when MMOs weren't mainstream, and when devs weren't just copy-pasting the same thing every time. That doesn't work now days. Now days it IS black and white, either it's a big name MMO that's a wow clone, or it's a small title that gets overlooked. I mean hell, looking at your list of upcoming MMOs, the only ones I've heard about were Tera, GW2, and Planetside. And those I heard of from various places on the web. GW2 is the only one you listed with any sort of wide marketing. So no matter how good those are, if nobody knows about them they will still fail.

 

As long as wow clones dominate the market, we'll never see big name MMOs that are unique and innovative.

[ColonelColt]

It's on top for a reason..

If you agree with it or not.

 

Doesn't make it any less stifling to everyone else. Besides, even wow players wouldn't mind a new and unique MMO, why do you think the locust effect happens with every new MMO?

[GraunKrynn]

It is preventing me from the game I like, because as long as wow clones dominate the market, the kinds of games I like will never be made. It's easier to just copy wow and reskin it.

 

I support indie developers and small MMOs when they look good, but they're always overshadowed by the triple a wow clones, so no matter how good they might be, they will never succeed. You can share the MMO market because what you want is on top, so you can enjoy yourself. But would you be willing to share the market if it meant the types of games you enjoyed are never made? No, you wouldn't.

 

I know I'd be too busy supporting indie developers and not throwing my money at big developers because "I just have $60 laying around". I also wouldn't be trolling other games' general forums looking for attention. If you've noticed...you haven't really rallied many people to your cause. If anything, you're helping the people who support this game because they can now rally against you and your faulty reasoning. You're failing hard, even for a troll.

[Anomagnus]

Just because you call me a hater and say I want to see it go under just because it "makes me happy" doesn't make it true. You can believe what you want. If you want to shove your head in the sand and sing to yourself, go ahead. But it doesn't make you right.

 

LOL, how is my head in the sand? I've already shown that you don't understand how R&D and creative development works. Theres been about 7 pages now of people telling you how you contridict even your own points, and multiple people have told you that there are millions of people out there enjoying the current gaming model as it is!

 

In fact, if anyone has their head in the sand, its you, unwilling to listen to anything unless you agree with it.

 

You've admitted yourself multiple times you want this game to fail, even if people enjoy it, in the .01% that TOR failing will result in a magical new MMO thats unlike anything thats ever gone before it. Tell me how that isn't a hater being a hater. You want others to lose for you to win.

[dyves]

But it isn't preventing you from the game you like. Like I said, there are many MMOs out there to cater to all.

The only difference is, that the majority of MMO players aren't in them.

If it's a very large community you want, then you have to wonder if you can eat your cake and have it to?

 

I don't agree with many of the independent MMOs play styles.

But I don't wish them death.

I can happily share the MMO community with them.

 

Why can't you?

 

I think that there are fanatics not only among muslim extremists, people in whose mind only radical solutions make sense and who just cannot picture a world of coexistence. In their mind, everything is black & white: in order for them to enjoy MMO's of the type like SWG that they like, all other MMO's have to be destroyed or fought against, no matter what.

Selfish and egotistical as well, because to people like that they can only have fun in MMO's they want if other people cannot have fun in the MMO's of their preference

[kalexkhan]

"Why do so many here take joy in wanting this game to fail?"

 

Many of them are probably WoW players. The mind tells them that WoW is slowly dying and that it's time to move on and to find a new game. But the heart doesn't want to let WoW go and wishes any possible competitor to fail. This has nothing to do with SWTOR, it is much rather some sort of feeling guilty for even considering to leave WoW after so many yeras.

 

:eek:

 

If I liked wow I would feel right at home playing this game.

 

What are you doing when you play that you can't do in wow?

[Gehoornde]

I don't wanna see the game fail, I love SWTOR, but I don't give a crap about the story. Those godawful cutscenes, I wish there was an option to disable them. Even spacebar spam get annoying after a while

[GraunKrynn]

Alot of us want the game to succeed so we can enjoy it as much as we can. But the fact of the matter is, the game really isn't up to much at the moment and there's still quite alot of work to be done.

 

People raise solid points and are instantly attacked by the Bioware white knighting inbreds who are programmed to give the same response: "Go back to WoW, kid."

 

This is why these forums are an embarrassment.

 

There's also a lot of people who just say "WoW clone this game sucks." and other posts. Both sides are just as guilty.

[ColonelColt]

For me, yes, that does heighten my enjoyment. It's a large part why I've enjoyed most Bioware games to date. I loved the VA and characters in the Baldur's Gate series(Minsc and Boo!), I loved Mass Effect(Shepard. Wrex.), I loved Dragon Age(Morrigan continues to be a favorite), and I love hearing my Imperial Sniper talk in a haughty British accent.

 

 

 

Like it or not, for many it does bring a lot to the table in regards to the story. VA is a prime reason many people buy and enjoy Bioware products. Now maybe you just don't "get it", I understand that. God knows there are games that I don't get. For instance, for the life of me I don't get the point of Madden games. However, I don't go out, buy a Madden game, and then question the point of playing football in a game as if it was pointless. I just don't buy the game to begin with.

 

I'll repeat since I don't think you get it: Many people seriously enjoy the voice-work in this game. It's a valid reason for buying TOR over other titles. You're simply one of many people that buys products without thinking about whether that product is really right for them.

 

The thing you never seem to acknowledge is that TOR isn't a singleplayer game. It's not a game that you'll play a couple times and then never touch again. This is a game that you will be playing for months, years even. Now can you honestly tell me that six months down the road that voice acting will still be the major draw for you? If you say yes you're a damned liar. Since if voice acting was all you cared about you'd just replay baldurs gate every day until the end of time. But you're not playing baldurs gate, are you?

[Kurnea]

I support non-triple A mmos when they look interesting. But as long as wow clones rule, we'll never see the actual unique MMOs gain any real momentum.

 

What non-AAA titles have you recently put as much money and time into as you did TOR? Have you actually investigated or sought out Indie mmos?

 

Take A Tale in the Desert. It's a crafting, tradeskill mmo, nothing like WoW at all. Have you played it? Have you even heard of it?

Also, as I've said before, simply buying the game doesn't support it. Subbing to it is what supports it.

You can keep saying that all you want, but buying the game does in fact support it. If you wanted to simply 'try the game out', you could've just waited for a free trial like every other mmo offers eventually. You paid money that went to Bioware under the category of "Knights of the Old Republic", that's support.

 

Whining about AAA titles is not going to change the industry. Supporting those smaller titles that actually offer change might, however.

[Cooltrip]

It's not hating, it's just an objective look at it. What does voice acting add? The only things I ever see are "immersion". But that works in a one-shot singleplayer game. As I said in my previous post, will you care about that quest giver on Balmora in six months just because he was voiced? No. You will not. Companions may last longer but eventually, you'll stop caring about them to. They can't talk back, you can't hold meaningful conversations with them, they're NPCs. Voiced or not you're gonna stop caring about them down the road and what then? How did VA change the game then? It's a gimmick, a novelty, nothing more. It'll wear off quickly enough.

 

If you prefer a wall of quest text to ignore, go ahead back to the old stuff like WoW, or even STO. I think if you choose to listen to the VO it's there for you. You obviously don't enjoy the entertainment aspect of gaming. I find the VO and animated cut scenes as refreshingly different and it helps change the pace some. SWTOR is definitely not revolutionary and that seems to be what you are seeking. BioWare brings an evolutionary approach, and why the heck not? You spoke of investments etc, look at the revenues of WoW. Even aiming for a small fraction of that is a success. WoW didn't innovate at all either. Most WoWzers think it was the start of it all in the MMO universe. It was truly for those who like WoW (not me) the pinnacle of themeparks in it's day. And as the first true themepark it immeasurably damaged any chances for sandbox MMO's. Just as WoW borrowed from SWG, Ultima, Everquest and others, SWTOR does build on what came before. Deny it, minimize that, any smart development outfit trying to raise the huge revenues for a new product will do the same. If you don't like the pace of fixes, or story, or content, or VO, or game mechanics go somewhere else. As a long time MMO vet, I'll admit the product is far from perfect. But it's far far better than most launched products and will improve over time. It's not an instant thing no matter how much you harp on it. i guess those of us who don't have an overwhelming sense of entitlement and possibly a wisened gray hair or two have more patience that the gimme now folks do. Don't like it, don't support it. Try not to ruin it for others who don't share your viewpoints as I know I won't change your mind.

[Fraxture]

Doesn't make it any less stifling to everyone else. Besides, even wow players wouldn't mind a new and unique MMO, why do you think the locust effect happens with every new MMO?

 

Everyone else?

If 1000 people are in a room and 100 vote red, and 900 vote blue.

Then everyone else is that 100?

 

If the 100 start badgering and demanding the other 900 vote red in order to show them that red is better than blue. That's not rallying for a cause, that's just pressure to make the 900 give in to your way of thinking.

 

The 900 are the majority, and they have their right to like the color blue.

The 100 that like red just don't like being a minority.

 

I am sorry that in the current MMO landscape the game design you and many desire is the minority.

 

But what I have been saying all along. Badgering us isn't going to get the results you so desperately wish for.

 

Because our desires will never be on par with yours.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Fraxture

[ColonelColt]

LOL, how is my head in the sand? I've already shown that you don't understand how R&D and creative development works. Theres been about 7 pages now of people telling you how you contridict even your own points, and multiple people have told you that there are millions of people out there enjoying the current gaming model as it is!

 

In fact, if anyone has their head in the sand, its you, unwilling to listen to anything unless you agree with it.

 

You've admitted yourself multiple times you want this game to fail, even if people enjoy it, in the .01% that TOR failing will result in a magical new MMO thats unlike anything thats ever gone before it. Tell me how that isn't a hater being a hater. You want others to lose for you to win.

 

Sure people enjoy TOR, same as they enjoy wow. But TOR is nothing more then a fad, same as every other wow clone. It'll keep it's subs, sure, even warhamer still has subs. But it's just stagnating the industry. Stagnation simply is not good, it is never good under any circumstance. So enjoy it all you want, but it should still fail. TOR being successful means we're stuck with wow clones for another decade, TOR failing means that, one way or the other, wow clones will be gone.

[daemian]

The most entertaining are the ones being called out by devs/mods for lying about being banned for stupid reasons.

 

But if you read the other sections of the forum (i.e. not General Discussion or Customer Service) it's easy to see how many people are discussing actually playing the game, instead of just bad mouthing it.

Edited January 6, 2012 by daemian