Why do so many here take joy in wanting this game to fail?

[Bibdabob]

If you are not a wow fan, how can you find anything tolerable to do past level 30 in this game?

 

Maybe I'm on the wrong planet, but everything I do is the same as what I did in wow before I got bored to death and quit.

 

Ridiculous, you have no life. I am stuck at level 24 and already quit.

[GraunKrynn]

That second paraphrase is actually quite inaccurate. I explicitly stated "expected". I didn't know for a fact that TOR would be a wow clone, I expected it would be, but I didn't know. So I bought it and gave it a chance. Again, how is this so difficult for you to comprehend?

 

If you expected it, and you really should have regarding ALL of the information released about this game during development, and you still bought it then you're the one is lacking in intelligence. You said you want the industry to move forward. You said you want the industry to be innovative. You said you want to force developers to listen to their market. Well the best way to do that is to not buy a game that doesn't do that.

 

You expected it and you got what you expected. Therefore, you knew and yet you're still trying to sway others into your camp. Your words are having no effect on the people who enjoy the game.

 

I keep telling you the best way to get the industry to move forward is to do your market research and not contribute to the financial success of a game that you expected to be what you paid for. You expected this game wasn't going to move the genre forward and yet here you are.

 

If you really wanted the game to fail and the genre to move forward you wouldn't have given the developers a penny of your money.

[Kurnea]

Now as an investor. You fork over millions of dollars for an MMO that is going to be new, fresh, and unexplored...or you go with a sure thing...

 

From a business ethics standpoint, especially when much of the millions you're talking about is coming from other investors and more than a few people's livelihood depends on the end-product, you go with the sure thing.

 

Seems often people make it out that choosing money over innovation is selling out or horrible. But when you examine that with a multi-million dollar budget, hundreds of people are dependent on the game doing well, seems to me like you go with what will sell.

 

Now you look at someone like Notch who made Minecraft. The guy coded it all himself(no employees) and he used Java(no real overhead). It would suck if the game failed, but if it did it would be a setback mainly for him alone. Meanwhile, if a company like Bioware invests millions into an innovative mmo, and later it tanked, that's going to negatively affect a lot more families.

 

And you can say we are creating this behavior.

But honestly, maybe this is what the majority of MMO players want.

 

If that saddens you, then it's time to either start your own MMO, invest in a company attempting to break the mold, or just give up for now and come back in a few years as the landscape changes.

 

I was a fanatical FPS gamer. But then things changed for the worse IMO.

I left, and said I would come back when they interest me again...I haven't been back so far.

I may in the future if things change to my style. But since the majority of players like FPS the way they are being cookie cutter produced currently, I am in the minority, and will have to accept that.

 

I'll admit I'm one of those people who continues to love FPS games. Nothing like a game of Battlefield 3 to end the day. If you think you could offer a better alternative, though, I'd say that's an opportunity.

[PhoenixAscendere]

Sadly, the internet - as great as it is - comes with a seedy underbelly. People can post anything they like with almost no fear of any sort of reprisal.

 

It's not just in the gaming community. Look at any news article that allows comments. Even the most heart-wrenching tragedy can bring out trolls.

 

Progress, indeed.

[Jorelle]

WoW didn't copy everquest, it built off everquest and casualized the MMO genre, making it mainstream. While it was heavily influenced by everquest, it did not copy everquest. TOR, on the other hand, flat out copies wow. The only differences being voice acting and class stories.

 

well sir if WoW didnt copy off EQ, and built better aspects of the game, then Tor didnt copy off WoW.

[Fraxture]

The only thing investors look at is the bottom line. They couldn't care less what we the players want, only what we'll buy. By staying on TOR that shows them TOR is successful. Doesn't matter if I'm trying to change it for the better, they simply do not care. The very act of remaining is telling them wow clones work. The very act of leaving tells them wow clones don't work. The ONLY action you can take to influence a market is to not buy a bad product. Buying the product and then telling them to change accomplishes nothing.

 

Well unfortunately people have lived their lives without your input for some time now.

You yourself consider yourself a smart person, and able to make decisions that are well thought out and solid, and won't be influenced by other individuals.

 

I am afraid the same goes here.

You are basically calling the community your appealing to..stupid, more or less.

Because with out your insight we are unable to make an informed decision.

 

But we feel the same way you do.

Your views and ideas won't change our mind on a subject, because we have made our mind up already.

 

I am sorry that the many you wish to sway will most likely not change to fit your needs and wants.

 

You can preach to the choir, and they will sing out your praises.

But you will not be converting those who have chosen their path to stay because they like it.

 

Things may change down the road for them, but that will be their decision, and not yours.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Fraxture

[Cooltrip]

Y'know, the problem is you can't compare TOR to vanilla wow. It's not competing with vanilla wow. Whatever bugs or problems vanilla wow doesn't justify what TOR has. TOR should have learned from WoWs mistakes and made changes to fix them from the start. Any problem wow faced, tor shouldn't. If tor is facing problems wow did at launch, that just goes to show how incompetent it's developers were.

 

Just can't please some people I guess. Having played most MMO's that have come out (ignored Rift due to Elf Fatigue) this launch is been one of the smoothest. Well you don't have to sub if the pace of fixes aren't to your liking. It will take BioWare a little time (more than a couple weeks) to gel with live production. Come back in 6 months, maybe you'll like what you see better. I don't think BioWare is incompetent in the least, you're way way way too harsh my friend.

[Napalmbrain]

Have a you taken a look around this world lately?

 

Haters are scumbags everywhere, their only purpose in life is to insult others, and cause misery.

 

The short answer is...some people are just evil d-bags.

[ColonelColt]

I disagree with that. Bioware/EA has put a lot of money into this game. If this game were to fail, that would show the other companies that the MMO market is dead, and that they should shift their resources elsewhere.

 

Games, like other things, evolve over time. You just can't take a piece of wood, and turn it into a jet aircraft. There must be a singular idea, that changes over time.

 

Take the MMO universe. It changed from the simple MUD (Multi-User Dungeon), to the more complex version of Everquest. From there games like WoW, SWG, EQ2, etc. sought to improve on the original idea, not spanning too far from its roots. Currently, we have TOR, and soon after we will have GW2 and Dark Millennium.

 

These games will still have the original mold of the MMO in mind, but will expand on it in order to create diversity within the MMO genre.

 

In short, games evolve, and if a certain step fails, it will stunt the growth of the genre as a whole.

 

Games evolving is fine, and indeed good. Games taking what their predecessors did and adding new things is as well, good. TOR doesn't do this. TOR does what too many MMOs have done for the past 7 years. It copied wow. Any changes it made a superfluous and ultimately don't change the actual GAME. Voice acting? Yeah, doesn't change the game. The gameplay is the exact same. The look is the exact same. The FEEL of the game is the exact same. Most of the games you listed built off the fundamentals to make something new and unique. TOR doesn't do this.

 

So while you are right, and TOR failing may tell them the MMO genre is dead. Some, actually intelligent developers will realize that MMOs aren't dead, players are just bored of wow clones, and as such actually try something new.

[Lomerell]

I dont get it? Why are you all wishing this will go free to play and taking joy in its apparent "badness"? Personally when a new Star Wars game that ive been waiting ages for comes out im quite happy to play it and im hoping it never gets shut down. Secondly when you've invested your money in a subscription for a game why would you want it to fail?

 

They're sexually frustrated.

[Mannic]

IMO, if the game fails it serves BW right for being yet another developer who, rather than try to create something worthy of support, just copies the skinner-box approach perfected by someone else in order to make money. As a gamer I'm personally tired of being treated as a walking wallet by game developers. I'm tired of developers designing games--especially MMO's-- as money-printing machines and forgetting that before they get their money they should probably make a good game. Instead they fall back on IP's that are already established knowing they can fleece an existing fanbase and exploit their love of the property, and do so with little risk because fanboys are so skilled at self-deception.

 

The fanboys then fall all over themselves to defend a weak, poorly developed product because they can't bear to see thier beloved object of adoration tarnished. The developers know this in advance and depend on it. Rather than take great pains to release a polished product the developer then comes to think they can get away with releasing prematurely because of the forebearance of loyal fans. The know they can rely on those fans to do everything possible to marginalize those who have higher expectations as "entitled" or otherwise unreasonable.

 

And so we see the same mistake repeated over and over again, and the same apparently befuddled reaction by developers who just don't understand why so many people are unsubscribing to their product. Maybe, eventually, one of these triiple-A developers will stop looking at their MMO project purely as an investment with the potential to finance future game-development, and realize that first the MMO needs to be a worthwhile product in and of itself.

 

BW has built up some bad karma in my book. This once excellent company sold its soul to EA, and immediately started offering up purely capital-generating devices like DLC's; and then their first product designed solely as an EA subsidiary (DA2) wasn't even a complete product, and was obviously designed merely as a foundation for selling more DLC's.

 

Big game conglomerates like EA and Activision keep searching for more and more ways to make your games hobby something that you have to keep feeding money into, rather than the old way of simply putting out a good, complete game. EA brags to its investors about continually searching for methods of monetizing IP's, like DLC's. When EA announces something like TOR you can just see the dollar-signs in their eyes when they're doing it. The money is all they care about. They don't care about the quality of the product, whether they are giving good customer service, or whether they totally wreck the reputation of a once great developer like Bioware. All they care about is the bottom line.

 

So karma's a *****, and maybe EA will discover, as they did with Sims and Warhammer, that the MMO community is not so easily fleeced as the mass of WoW fanboys would lead them to believe.

 

Give us a finished product that works properly on release. Give us something that is truly differentiated rather than just being a re-skinned version of something else. And stop insulting our collective intelligence by asking us to subscribe to something that is so obviously still in development as, so far, every MMO released by EA has been.

 

I'm only sorry that a great company like Bioware has to be sullied by their unholy alliance to the EA mint.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Mannic

[ColonelColt]

If you expected it, and you really should have regarding ALL of the information released about this game during development, and you still bought it then you're the one is lacking in intelligence. You said you want the industry to move forward. You said you want the industry to be innovative. You said you want to force developers to listen to their market. Well the best way to do that is to not buy a game that doesn't do that.

 

You expected it and you got what you expected. Therefore, you knew and yet you're still trying to sway others into your camp. Your words are having no effect on the people who enjoy the game.

 

I keep telling you the best way to get the industry to move forward is to do your market research and not contribute to the financial success of a game that you expected to be what you paid for. You expected this game wasn't going to move the genre forward and yet here you are.

 

If you really wanted the game to fail and the genre to move forward you wouldn't have given the developers a penny of your money.

 

I'm done arguing with you as you do not listen. I bought the game to try it, confirm my expectations. This doesn't help support TOR, remaining subbed supports TOR. As such leaving helps progress the industry, even if just a little. Don't bother responding unless you actually read and comprehend what I am saying, for if you repeat yourself again I wont even bother reading it.

[kalexkhan]

I disagree with that. Bioware/EA has put a lot of money into this game. If this game were to fail, that would show the other companies that the MMO market is dead, and that they should shift their resources elsewhere.

 

Games, like other things, evolve over time. You just can't take a piece of wood, and turn it into a jet aircraft. There must be a singular idea, that changes over time.

 

Take the MMO universe. It changed from the simple MUD (Multi-User Dungeon), to the more complex version of Everquest. From there games like WoW, SWG, EQ2, etc. sought to improve on the original idea, not spanning too far from its roots. Currently, we have TOR, and soon after we will have GW2 and Dark Millennium.

 

These games will still have the original mold of the MMO in mind, but will expand on it in order to create diversity within the MMO genre.

 

In short, games evolve, and if a certain step fails, it will stunt the growth of the genre as a whole.

 

You bring up a great point. If this game doesn't hit it's marks, the investment bubble behind mmo's will face a set back....

 

However, it will also prime the industry to move forward more as independent and small budget projects that are more inclined to take design risks will get the opportunity for some press most likely as these triple a wow clones will go the way of the dinosaur.

 

Either way, this games success and failure is going to shape mmo's moving forward in significant ways.

[OldBenSmokin]

The short answer is...some people are just evil d-bags.

 

Yes... that's it. There's nothing fundamentally wrong with the game. People are just being evil D-bags.

[stitchersflock]

Just a question, but if you don't care about endgame... what will you be playing? Three months from now, six months, after you've gotten each class to lvl 50. What will you be doing? Sitting on the station rping? Nothing else? What exactly is your reason for paying 15 bucks a month if you're not going to play endgame content?

 

Don't need to explain to you or anyone why I think "end game" is moronic. But honesty, what's the point of runnng the same content over and over again just to say you're a raider? LMAO Who cares?

[horseworld]

Because Bioware makes bad games like DA2 and Mass Effect

[Jorelle]

I disagree with that. Bioware/EA has put a lot of money into this game. If this game were to fail, that would show the other companies that the MMO market is dead, and that they should shift their resources elsewhere.

 

Games, like other things, evolve over time. You just can't take a piece of wood, and turn it into a jet aircraft. There must be a singular idea, that changes over time.

 

Take the MMO universe. It changed from the simple MUD (Multi-User Dungeon), to the more complex version of Everquest. From there games like WoW, SWG, EQ2, etc. sought to improve on the original idea, not spanning too far from its roots. Currently, we have TOR, and soon after we will have GW2 and Dark Millennium.

 

These games will still have the original mold of the MMO in mind, but will expand on it in order to create diversity within the MMO genre.

 

In short, games evolve, and if a certain step fails, it will stunt the growth of the genre as a whole.

 

McGuyver could probably be able to do it with no problem LOL.

[ColonelColt]

Well unfortunately people have lived their lives without your input for some time now.

You yourself consider yourself a smart person, and able to make decisions that are well thought out and solid, and won't be influenced by other individuals.

 

I am afraid the same goes here.

You are basically calling the community your appealing to..stupid, more or less.

Because with out your insight we are unable to make an informed decision.

 

But we feel the same way you do.

Your views and ideas won't change our mind on a subject, because we have made our mind up already.

 

I am sorry that the many you wish to sway will most likely not change to fit your needs and wants.

 

You can preach to the choir, and they will sing out your praises.

But you will not be converting those who have chosen their path to stay because they like it.

 

Things may change down the road for them, but that will be their decision, and not yours.

 

Contrary to popular belief, I'm not trying to sway anyone. I don't feel I need to. TOR has nothing going for it, nothing to keep people playing for two, three, six, twelve months. It's only selling point is something you can clear in a single month with only casual gametime put in. I forsee TOR going the route of every other WoW clone. I may be wrong, fanboys may remain simply because it's Bioware and SW. But the cycle has shown wow clones don't work, I'm not convinced slapping fancy names on the side will change this.

[stitchersflock]

Yes. Because I acknowledge the impact wow had on the MMO genre it means I'd rather play it over any other game. Sigh, people like you...

 

If by impact, you mean theft from their sources and addon developers then yeah they've had an impact. Other than that, the only impact I can see from WOW is boosting the Chinese economy and catering to the squeakiest wheel regardless of it's implications to game content or design.

[Anomagnus]

Honestly, for a LOT of people, it's not trolling or anything. It's because they fear what TOR represents. What TOR represents is stagnation. Like it or not, TOR rips off WoW just as much as any other wow clone. But if TOR manages to be successful it will tell every other developer "oh look, all we need to do to get an easy cash cow is to copy wow and use a popular IP!" However on the flipside, if TOR were to fail it'd send the message that no matter what names you slap on your game, if it's a wow clone, it will fail. So by failing it will send a message throughout the industry that wow clones don't sell, and thus they may be inclined to actually try something else that might actually make money.

 

This is why even I am on the "please fail" train. I want new and unique MMOs, not rehashed wow clones with a new skin and voice acting. Sure I may be enjoying tor, but that's because I enjoy wow style games, they're a good timesink for a month or two. But I want the industry to progress and push forward, not just rehash wow for the next decade.

 

So yeah, just because people want tor to fail doesn't mean they're trolls or just haters, it's because they legitimately fear for the fate of the MMO genre.

 

I really don't think you understand product development and R&D at all. If this game fails, which is a copy of a PROVEN and sucessful model, you'll find that people will just not invest in large scale MMO's at all.

 

If the risk is too great to even produce a copy of WoW, then the risk in something entirely experimental will be astronomical. There will never be a 100 million dollar MMO thats off the wall orginal.

 

If this game does go under, and i don't think it will, large developers, publishers, etc are going to think twice about investing in MMOs. We're likely to see a torrent of small scale, F2P MMOs, all crowding the market space, none of which will ever be able to build a community like WoW has.

 

Besides all of that, wishing something to fail, on which hundreds of jobs depends, is disgusting. You literally typify the modern forumite generation, of 'everything is ok, if it proves me right'.

 

You also need to understand that the revolution is far less common than evolution, and learn to live with it.

[ColonelColt]

Don't need to explain to you or anyone why I think "end game" is moronic. But honesty, what's the point of runnng the same content over and over again just to say you're a raider? LMAO Who cares?

 

I agree with you, I think that kind of endgame is pointless. Which is why I say TOR has no endgame, because the only thing it has is a couple lousy raids. Why would I spend months doing the same raid over and over? This is why I wont remain subbed. TOR's a single player game, once you beat it it has no replay value. So what am I subbing for?

[Kurnea]

Games evolving is fine, and indeed good. Games taking what their predecessors did and adding new things is as well, good. TOR doesn't do this. TOR does what too many MMOs have done for the past 7 years. It copied wow. Any changes it made a superfluous and ultimately don't change the actual GAME. Voice acting? Yeah, doesn't change the game. The gameplay is the exact same. The look is the exact same. The FEEL of the game is the exact same. Most of the games you listed built off the fundamentals to make something new and unique. TOR doesn't do this.

 

To me and others the voice-acting and story DID change things. Characters and NPCs that I actually have an interest in is something I felt was lacking from WoW especially(sweet lord, Blizz, Thrall's like the only character people seem to care about in Azeroth anymore).

 

TOR did evolve the genre, just not in ways that you personally seem to be able to appreciate. To me, the game is doing exactly what I wanted and expected: took the themepark mmo genre, and added some Mass Effect-like voice dialogue and choices to the game. May not seem much to you, but to others it's a step up. Dismiss it all you want for not 'changing' anything, but it was in fact an evolution of the genre.

So while you are right, and TOR failing may tell them the MMO genre is dead. Some, actually intelligent developers will realize that MMOs aren't dead, players are just bored of wow clones, and as such actually try something new.

There have been tons of new games that have come out in the last 7 years, it's just the vast majority weren't mmos. For any serious gamer, there have been lots of choices to choose from game-wise, you just have to have the initiative to try things other than mmos.

[stitchersflock]

Dont worry most of the wow fanboys will go away after the free month or first month they actually pay for, and then the game can normalize

 

Truer worders ... :D

[Fraxture]

Originally Posted by sithylords

I disagree with that. Bioware/EA has put a lot of money into this game. If this game were to fail, that would show the other companies that the MMO market is dead, and that they should shift their resources elsewhere.

 

Games, like other things, evolve over time. You just can't take a piece of wood, and turn it into a jet aircraft. There must be a singular idea, that changes over time.

 

Take the MMO universe. It changed from the simple MUD (Multi-User Dungeon), to the more complex version of Everquest. From there games like WoW, SWG, EQ2, etc. sought to improve on the original idea, not spanning too far from its roots. Currently, we have TOR, and soon after we will have GW2 and Dark Millennium.

 

These games will still have the original mold of the MMO in mind, but will expand on it in order to create diversity within the MMO genre.

 

In short, games evolve, and if a certain step fails, it will stunt the growth of the genre as a whole.

 

I agree with you.

I will not invest my cash into an independent that will give me little return.

I want the most for my investment.

 

If SWTOR dies, the MMO landscape will be changed forever. And not in a good way IMO.

It will go the opposite direction that many of these 'optimist' believe it will.

 

No relationship...marriage, business, family ever thrives on being ignored to make a point. They all fall apart and eventually die and wither away.

 

We are in an evolution process of MMOs.

No one wants to be the rung in the ladder that gets squashed to make room for the next iteration of life, but it has to occur unfortunately.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Fraxture

[ColonelColt]

I really don't think you understand product development and R&D at all. If this game fails, which is a copy of a PROVEN and sucessful model, you'll find that people will just not invest in large scale MMO's at all.

 

If the risk is too great to even produce a copy of WoW, then the risk in something entirely experimental will be astronomical. There will never be a 100 million dollar MMO thats off the wall orginal.

 

If this game does go under, and i don't think it will, large developers, publishers, etc are going to think twice about investing in MMOs. We're likely to see a torrent of small scale, F2P MMOs, all crowding the market space, none of which will ever be able to build a community like WoW has.

 

Besides all of that, wishing something to fail, on which hundreds of jobs depends, is disgusting. You literally typify the modern forumite generation, of 'everything is ok, if it proves me right'.

 

You also need to understand that the revolution is far less common than evolution, and learn to live with it.

 

You make it sound like massive multi-million dollar MMOs going extinct is a bad game. Plenty of great MMOs have been made in the past with budgets that were a fraction of what TOR had. The money bloat is one of the reasons the MMO genre has gone to hell.

 

Also, I love how you think we should all support the game just because jobs depend on it. Welcome to real life, welcome to economics. If you make something bad and that doesn't sell, you go under. That's how it works. I hope it goes under because it's bad and stagnates the genre, whether that costs them their jobs or not is not my concern. Maybe they shouldn't have cloned wow for the hundredth time.