Why do so many here take joy in wanting this game to fail?

[kalexkhan]

Your own post shows the fundamental issue. People don't want innovation per se. They want the innovation that they want. Bringing story to the MMO space as Bioware have done is truly innovative. If you don't like it, that is not due to a lack of innovation.

 

I don't mean to be critical, but please look at existing examples of actual innovation, both generally & in the MMO market. Two things should strike you - first, the rest of the 'non-innovating' businesses don't care & don't copy, secondly, a lot of innovations fail miserably at the starting gates.

 

I am not against innovation either, but there is no logical link between TOR's success or failure and lack of or greater innovation. Innovation happens because someone has a good idea & can get backing. To argue that WoW has stifled innovation, for example, is silly. What WoW proved was that with the right accessibility millions of people would happily accept more of the same over and over. Farmville is yet more proof, and that is innovation - just not necessarily in a direction PC gamers might like.

 

This is far more about the psychology of the mass market of gamers than about innovation. People don't want surprises. They just want more of the same, but better, like they keep saying. Trouble is better is in the eye of the beholder.

 

 

Thanks for your response.

 

You make a great point about mainstream gaming and how that type of culture is going to drive the majority of design decisions on Tripple A projects. Projects with the biggest budgets, have the most to lose, so naturally they are going to take fewer design risks. I believe in that. In fact, bioware has gone on record earlier in development stating they don't intend to challenge wow's conventions as they stand.

 

http://m.tomshardware.com/news/World-of-Warcraft-SWTOR-Greg-Zeschuk-Mike-Morhaime-MMORPG,12174.html

 

Now, you did mention something that I want to point out, and have done so once or twice already previously in the thread. The 2nd generation (i don't want to give wow all the credit either) of MMO's came out, and they did take a MAJOR design risk by betting on accessibility. In retrospect, it seems like a sure thing but at the time, MMO players were hardcore of the hardcore. It wasn't so obvious that they would bite on the accessibility factor, but they were right in assuming their was enough EQ players who didn't have the time to put up with the strict design philosophies of long xp grinds, corpse runs, and perilous raid encounters. WoW doubled down on this by being arguably the ones who nailed it the best, and reaped the majority of the rewards for it. So maybe innovation isn't the way to think about it... Maybe we just need developers to start asking what people want if they're perhaps tired of the generation thats driving the boat right now, instead of shying away from it.

 

The risks are indeed high, and people testing and teasing with their own spins and curve balls in this industry have mostly only been faced with failure so far, but sooner or later someone is going to knock it out of the park. And if you ask me personally, I'd start with the meat of the quests themselves, not their dressings.

 

We don't "camp check?" anymore, and at one time this was the thing that drove the majority of peoples time in EQ.

[Thorbrand]

One simple fact is that a single player RPG MMO will ruin MMOs in the future. Some of us want a true MMO experience again. This is just a single player console game, nothig more than that. And look at all the instancing, this use to be a bane for MMOs. I guess not today.

 

We want large world, exploreable areas, real dungeons, real boss fights, large scale raids, open world PvP, presistant BGs, GM world events, and a bonded community. None of this is in SWTOR.

[JHoltJHolt]

Two words: Generation Entitlement.

 

+1 ! Thank You sir!!

 

Today's generations, and even some In the generation just under me are bunch of spoilt little brats. If they're not crying and waving signs on forums, they're crying and waving signs in front of wall street. Be thankful for this game, play and enjoy it. Our culture has accomplished more than any other society in human history. **** and play or go do something worth while you snot nosed little *****.

[Bibdabob]

Sorry, this is just silly thinking.

If I like icecream, that doesn't mean that I only like to eat Ben & Jerry's icecream, just because it's better flavored than some other icecream. I'll probably eat other icecream too.

If I like sciencefiction series, it doesn't mean that I only like to watch Star Trek or Battlestar Galactica.

If I enjoy themepark MMO's, it doesn't mean that I only like to play WoW.

If I enjoy shooters, it doesn't mean that I only play and enjoy Modern Warfare games.

 

Etc.

 

In the space of MMOs typical consumers can only afford one monthly subscription. This is not like TV where one monthly subscription buys you Star Trek AND Galactica.

[Didact]

There are important and less important distinctions. I am not sure if anyone has made a list. When someone says "SWG was great" we are not sure which parts of SWG they mean.

 

Does the game involve killing? Does it involve character progression? Does it invove co-op or PvP? Is the world persistent? It is homogenous? Can the players influence the world? Is the world phased? What degree of control do players have on their avatars while levelling? Does the game make choices for them? How many? Is there loot in the game or is it all player made? Can players craft items according to skill with varying stats or is it a fixed/cannot fail system? Can players level solo or do they need groups? What is the underlying theme of the game? Are the graphics poor/medium/top ? Does the game offer options for players who are bored of one activity? Is there depth to keep players occupied (eg number of zones to quest in at any level)? Does the game require skill at low/late lavels? How is this skill applies? Does the game require social interactions and/or skill ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Absolutely spot on. WoW does it so much better, the ONLY thing new MMOs seem to have is novelty. And novelty wears thin very soon.

 

 

 

 

Are you on some kind of hallucinogenic medication? What is this innovation you speak of?

 

You're right with novelty, but the point I was trying to make is that WoW is a very cut and dry cookie cutter MMO, and that TOR has improved aspects of the game and made them better to a degree without completely reinventing them. I, for one, am much more comfortable getting into a new MMO that is similar to the previous one I played and watching it evolve over its lifetime. I mean, TOR has been out a little over 2 weeks. Give it time.

[Granrick]

One simple fact is that a single player RPG MMO will ruin MMOs in the future. Some of us want a true MMO experience again. This is just a single player console game, nothig more than that. And look at all the instancing, this use to be a bane for MMOs. I guess not today.

 

We want large world, exploreable areas, real dungeons, real boss fights, large scale raids, open world PvP, presistant BGs, GM world events, and a bonded community. None of this is in SWTOR.

 

that's ridiculous. Someone makes an MMO that's friendly to single players (but still has tons of group content) and that RUIN MMOs of the future... i take it you believe radio ruined books?

[Kurnea]

One simple fact is that a single player RPG MMO will ruin MMOs in the future. Some of us want a true MMO experience again. This is just a single player console game, nothig more than that. And look at all the instancing, this use to be a bane for MMOs. I guess not today.

 

So play those mmos that still cater to your particular interests. Show your support. The gaming world is big enough that both can co-exist, and the niche mmo hardcore players are just as many as they were before.

We want large world, exploreable areas, real dungeons, real boss fights, large scale raids, open world PvP, presistant BGs, GM world events, and a bonded community. None of this is in SWTOR.

 

By all means, then, play something else that's more relevant to you. Not every game has to cater to every different type of player.

[LizardSF]

I dont get it? Why are you all wishing this will go free to play and taking joy in its apparent "badness"? Personally when a new Star Wars game that ive been waiting ages for comes out im quite happy to play it and im hoping it never gets shut down. Secondly when you've invested your money in a subscription for a game why would you want it to fail?

 

[Master-Nala]

This is why even I am on the "please fail" train. I want new and unique MMOs, not rehashed wow clones with a new skin and voice acting. Sure I may be enjoying tor, but that's because I enjoy wow style games, they're a good timesink for a month or two. But I want the industry to progress and push forward, not just rehash wow for the next decade.

 

SWTOR ended 2011, let's look at the triple A release that started it:

 

DCUO had a completely different take on MMORPG combat. They also completely got rid of the level grind. It's an action/MMORPG. No WoW clone there. It also sucked and failed hard. Despite what we tell ourselves, MMORPG players as a whole do not want a 'new and innovative' MMO. We want the best of what's out there in an interesting setting. WoW has most of the best mechanics (not all) and so many of the mechanics here are like WoW.

 

No one wants a sandbox game, or a different take on combat, or anything else. If you like MMORPGs then you tend to want them to be like other MMORPGs.

 

People troll these boards because they didn't like the game and are ticked they spent $60+ on it. It's that simple. So they take out their frustration on the people who do like the game. It's sad, but true. Trolls aren't logical but they are consistent.

[Nyteblades]

It realy very simple they are tired of logging into thier other games and seeing them empty. So they think if they rage enough on here people will go back to the other games.

 

 

LOL its realy kinda funny reminds me of a 9 year old squawling about how thier daddy can beat up your daddy ......What a joke

[Bibdabob]

You're right with novelty, but the point I was trying to make is that WoW is a very cut and dry cookie cutter MMO, and that TOR has improved aspects of the game and made them better to a degree without completely reinventing them. I, for one, am much more comfortable getting into a new MMO that is similar to the previous one I played and watching it evolve over its lifetime. I mean, TOR has been out a little over 2 weeks. Give it time.

 

If SWTOR was not based on StarWars but on some other theme, mostly unknown to the public. If it was not Jedis and Siths that we all know of. If it was "the Guardians" vs "The Sentinels" for example, with no references to contemporary art culture.

 

Think about it carefully, what would it be now? What would your opinion be of it?

[dyves]

In the space of MMOs typical consumers can only afford one monthly subscription. This is not like TV where one monthly subscription buys you Star Trek AND Galactica.

 

1. There are enough F2P or 'fremium' MMO's around these days for those who like to play more than just 1 MMORPG.

2. just like a lot of MMO gamers do, you don't have to be subscribed to one and only 1 MMO the whole year around, but can try out other MMO's for 1 to several months as well, either temporarily canceling their main MMO or temporarily subbing 2 until they make their choice for the MMO they enjoy the most.

 

So, once again, for people who enjoy themepark MMO gameplay and variety, there's no reason not to play various MMO's over the course of the year, as many have done to great gaming fun.

Edited January 6, 2012 by dyves

[Aethyrprime]

Thirdly F2P games naturally get less players. Less players means less fun.

 

This is a misnomer. If you did any research in to games at all you'd know that the game with the largest player base in history is an asian free to play mmo. WoW could only wish it had a 10th of a percent of what they have.

 

The internet is a great thing as it allows us to leave our traditionally western news sources to cross reference "who has the most players" with others around the world. You'll notice that everytime WoW claims to be king.. it is ONLY using the words "Subscription", in it.

 

Just food for thought. A game called "The Perfect World International" which is free to play raked in over 9,000$ from one gamer I know of personally through a friend (I heard them say it with their own mouth) in a matter of 3 years.. due to cash shop junk they kept buying like social clothing, stims, xp boosts, etc.

 

No subscription game can ever claim such a thing without a cash shop on top.

[Kurnea]

+1 ! Thank You sir!!

 

Today's generations, and even some In the generation just under me are bunch of spoilt little brats. If they're not crying and waving signs on forums, they're crying and waving signs in front of wall street. Be thankful for this game, play and enjoy it. Our culture has accomplished more than any other society in human history. **** and play or go do something worth while you snot nosed little *****.

 

Weird, just yesterday there was someone complaining about TOR, and how 'true gamers' shouldn't appreciate it. One of the qualifications he had for being a 'true gamer' was being an older player(30+).

 

I've seen whiners from every age group, many who will slip on the rose-colored glasses, reminisce about older games, and complain bitterly about anything out recently. The whining culture is in no way made up just of the younger generation. I've seen Generation Xers or Yers complain on forums, I've seen baby boomers complain on forums.

 

Now if you happen to be a World War II vet, then yes, I'll gladly admit we're all a bunch of spoiled brats in comparison.

[Freeball]

Honestly, for a LOT of people, it's not trolling or anything. It's because they fear what TOR represents. What TOR represents is stagnation. Like it or not, TOR rips off WoW just as much as any other wow clone. But if TOR manages to be successful it will tell every other developer "oh look, all we need to do to get an easy cash cow is to copy wow and use a popular IP!" However on the flipside, if TOR were to fail it'd send the message that no matter what names you slap on your game, if it's a wow clone, it will fail. So by failing it will send a message throughout the industry that wow clones don't sell, and thus they may be inclined to actually try something else that might actually make money.

 

This is why even I am on the "please fail" train. I want new and unique MMOs, not rehashed wow clones with a new skin and voice acting. Sure I may be enjoying tor, but that's because I enjoy wow style games, they're a good timesink for a month or two. But I want the industry to progress and push forward, not just rehash wow for the next decade.

 

So yeah, just because people want tor to fail doesn't mean they're trolls or just haters, it's because they legitimately fear for the fate of the MMO genre.

 

But on the flip side, you do understand, that if this fails it doesnt signify to companies that WoW clones are not to be done... it signified the death of MMO's all together. You are likely not to get varieties released as many will take it as a sign that the MMO in general is a bad risk and quite dead.

 

We will only be stuck with one or two choices then, probably both fantasy.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Freeball

[Grammarye]

One simple fact is that a single player RPG MMO will ruin MMOs in the future. Some of us want a true MMO experience again. This is just a single player console game, nothig more than that. And look at all the instancing, this use to be a bane for MMOs. I guess not today.

 

We want large world, exploreable areas, real dungeons, real boss fights, large scale raids, open world PvP, presistant BGs, GM world events, and a bonded community. None of this is in SWTOR.

You are conflating fact with opinion & speculation, and your own views with those of some fictional majority. There is no 'we'. There is just you and your personal buying power.

 

EVE was made at the same time as WoW as a single server MMO with PvP in the thousands and no levelling, with real-time skill training. It has not changed any other nearby MMO in seven years. There is no mystical influence between one successful MMO and another. The 'true MMO experience' you refer to does not exist, because ask 100 MMO players what they want and you get 200 opinions.

 

Your post is laden with subjective terms 'large world, real this, real that'. It's opinion - you're entitled to it of course, but I think the bit people are trying to get across is that others disagree, and they're just as entitled to that viewpoint. That is in fact the very meat of this thread.

 

That does not stop TOR improving, nor should it stop people driving to make it better, but you'll have to do better than a bunch of subjective terms that are open to interpretation. Ask yourself this: if you were designing a new car and someone said 'I want it to have real ashtrays, the kind we used to have back in my day' - would you really know what to put on a design document? If someone went through every single car ever and looked at every ashtray ever designed, would they know anything more about your opinion?

 

I'm not being critical, truly - I'm just trying to explain why this sort of comment isn't constructive to TOR's improvement, which is the topic of the thread - why are people not being constructive.

[Granrick]

If SWTOR was not based on StarWars but on some other theme, mostly unknown to the public. If it was not Jedis and Siths that we all know of. If it was "the Guardians" vs "The Sentinels" for example, with no references to contemporary art culture.

 

Think about it carefully, what would it be now? What would your opinion be of it?

 

I'd still love it, because I'm not playing this game because it's "Star Wars", I became interested in it because it is a Bioware made MMO with story has a major feature. The game has not disappointed me coming on with that expectation.

[angrYdog]

cause they bloved 24/7 wow friends left wow :/

[kalexkhan]

If SWTOR was not based on StarWars but on some other theme, mostly unknown to the public. If it was not Jedis and Siths that we all know of. If it was "the Guardians" vs "The Sentinels" for example, with no references to contemporary art culture.

 

Think about it carefully, what would it be now? What would your opinion be of it?

 

This is an interesting point, and I wonder genuinely how much built in tolerance the star wars dressings promote. Theirs no way this game would have been given the giant budget it was without the star wars attachments.... Nevertheless this is food for thought.

 

Theirs a reason the lucas IP costs so much. The lightsabre sound is powerful.

[DeathCorp]

Q: "Why are these people even here? Paying money to get upset sounds stupid!"

A: "Because they expected something different."

 

Q: "Why did they expect something different?"

A: "Because they were misinformed."

 

Q: "What for? And by who?"

A: "This can vary. But the ones most pissed by this were straight forward believing everything BioWare and EA said about the game. You know, all that "The greatest game ever!" "THE game for everyone. If PvP or PvE, you can do it!", "There are freakin' space battles!" and all these merchandising stuff."

 

Q: "Now I get it! In not telling people the real deal but only those merchandising, BioWare caused this on their own?"

A: "Yeah! Now you got it. Although to be honest, a lot of this sugar-coating came from the so called fans of the game trying to make this game extremely popular in just saying yes to every question a potential customer could have."

 

Q: "And so a lot of people came. But why don't the developers cater to the people now. After all, they are here now!"

A: "Because they all want different things. Yo can see this in the forums right now! There are post from people wanting a 'dungeon finder tool' and posts against it at the same time."

 

Q: "So now I get it! Thats probably also the reason, why after a free month so many customers leave.. because some people just can't coexist in one game."

A: "Yes. Now go explain it to the people in the forums."

 

Q: "Why do people not bother to research the game they are going to buy?"

A: "Because they are stupid, Johnny. Stupid."

[Bibdabob]

I'd still love it, because I'm not playing this game because it's "Star Wars", I became interested in it because it is a Bioware made MMO with story has a major feature. The game has not disappointed me coming on with that expectation.

 

Damn! I missed that one. OK, What I said plus "and if it was made by an unknown firm".

 

In other words if you judge the game on its merits and not on its future potential (which is a wish at best).

[Granrick]

Damn! I missed that one. OK, What I said plus "and if it was made by an unknown firm".

 

In other words if you judge the game on its merits and not on its future potential (which is a wish at best).

 

if it wasn't made by bioware but still had voice acted quests and story as a major pillar, I'd still have tried it.

 

I like the game as it is now. Will I like it in 6 months? I don't know. That's to be seen. But I'm not complaining now.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Granrick

[Vihazur]

Honestly, for a LOT of people, it's not trolling or anything. It's because they fear what TOR represents. What TOR represents is stagnation. Like it or not, TOR rips off WoW just as much as any other wow clone. But if TOR manages to be successful it will tell every other developer "oh look, all we need to do to get an easy cash cow is to copy wow and use a popular IP!" However on the flipside, if TOR were to fail it'd send the message that no matter what names you slap on your game, if it's a wow clone, it will fail. So by failing it will send a message throughout the industry that wow clones don't sell, and thus they may be inclined to actually try something else that might actually make money.

 

This is why even I am on the "please fail" train. I want new and unique MMOs, not rehashed wow clones with a new skin and voice acting. Sure I may be enjoying tor, but that's because I enjoy wow style games, they're a good timesink for a month or two. But I want the industry to progress and push forward, not just rehash wow for the next decade.

 

So yeah, just because people want tor to fail doesn't mean they're trolls or just haters, it's because they legitimately fear for the fate of the MMO genre.

 

This. Plus the one thing it does differently, the linear single-player story, is a step BACKWARDS for MMOs, IMHO. It's in direct opposition to what I love about MMOs, so I don't want to see the genre move in that direction, either.

 

I'm sorry Bioware, but I think they should stick with single-player games, if they're going to dig in their heels like this, making an MMO that's more like their SP games than an MMO.

 

Look what happened with WoW. One successful game, and suddenly every MMO that followed ceased trying to be original, and copied it. Even existing games, like DAOC and SWG were ruined by expansions that made them more WoW-like. I think that's why you see people who want games to fail nowadays. Its crazy how much damage a successful game can do to the entire genre, when the people in charge of the money are so clueless about it all.

[Holden_Dissent]

The game has so far exceeded my expectations.

 

Seems like over half of the "complainers" are not here to make the game better.

 

 

They're stomping up and down, "now, now, now, or I won't be your friend any more!" That just makes me want to ignore you, or spank you so you'll take a nap. You're never too big for a spanking, my mom always says.

[Oneiros_IV]

I critize the game alot and point out it's flaws to ensure it's success not the other way around.

 

 

While SW fanbois preaching of how perfect it is currently do exactly the opposite.