The game isn't the problem

[moosedog]

But seeing as this game is not a race...

 

It's apparently a preteen soccer game.

[Celestry]

It's apparently a preteen soccer game.

 

Yes, in the sense that both are ment to be fun, and in the grand scope of everything are meaningless.

[Alkiii]

Combat log was essential for killing new bosses. Figuring it out how much damage, what type, how fast the tank took. Too bad it was used to blind the dpsmorons of it importancy. If you were really in a top guild you should know this.

 

When we downed Twin Emps as a USA first (<Aet>), we didn't even use a meter. Same with C'thun.

 

We started using meters in Naxx. But it was more for show than anything. It wasn't until BC that it was used as a tool to better performance. However, I never used it ... yet I still topped meters. How is that possible? How can someone top meters and NOT use a damage meter for min/maxing? I only used DBM one time also. For Heroic Lich King. That fight got the best of me. My bane!

 

Again, I'm not here to say that it's not a good tool. It is. I'm just saying that it isn't required. At the end of the day, it's about bosses dying. Not who tops the meter.

[Alkiii]

This is true, there should be a Combat Log, meters are unnecessary.

 

Thank you.

[zolthie]

I try different rotations, and different abilities on similar mobs and see how many hits, and how much damage comes off the NPC health bar as I hit it. The rotation and abilities that kill a mob faster must be doing more DPS. I also look at what my health is after a fight. If my char and pet has more health at the end, I drew less threat and/or did more dps and had a better fight. No meters needed.

 

I do agree with you that being able to move, resize, recolor, the ui has little to no effect on overall game play, and I have no issue with that. In some ways I do not have major issues with all the meter, but they are really not needed if you look at the feedback the game already gives you.

 

1. Your health goes down = you are drawing aggro and being hit

2. NPC is going down faster = you are doing more dps or mitigating damage better

3. Watching the health bars and game animations = telling you who in your party is getting hit and holding aggro

 

You have the tools they are just not in a format that you like.

 

As for healers and other players taking aggro. You are aware that the game applies a hugh threat generation stat to healing, right? Healing as it stands will get you hit often. In addition, boss mob adds are basically programmed to hit the healer first regardless of tank threat generation on the boss. That is why when adds pop in this game the healer almost always goes down first and fast.

 

More damage doesn't necessarily mean spamming that ability is more dps. Killing a mob faster than you killed another one means nothing. You can't come up with rotations and tell if its good or not by just testing in-game without any type of information on it.

 

Your health goes down = You are taking damage, doesn't mean you draw aggro, it just means something hit you and brought your health down.

2. NPC is going down faster = The group has good dps, One guy could be doing 90% and the other one 10%, one is bad, one is good, no one knows.

3. Taking damage, losing health doesn't mean you have aggro.

 

Most bosses, and mobs, have abilities they use on random targets, some bosses just randomly switches to another target for few seconds, as he has aggro, then switch back to the tank and it never happens again.

 

Target of target is needed because some bosses starts to channel random ability on someone, you have no idea who because there is no target of target. Same goes for pvp, you have no idea who is casting on who because there is no target of target. You just have to guess and pray that you are right.

 

There's no arguments that works against having these stuffs. These are vital things that are needed in MMOs today, without them, this game won't last very long.

 

You can play without a damage meter and still deal good damage, of course, but you have no idea how anyone is doing without them and you will not be able to adjust when you can't find out who or what the problem is.

 

Maybe the raid should randomly kick someone and hope he was the problem? Great solution!

Edited January 5, 2012 by zolthie

[Alkiii]

To be fair, you played a lock in PvE in TBC...destro dbolt spam was so easy mode to top meters.

 

As a fire mage main, and pre-nerf capacitor "user":cool:, I hated having to work so hard to top destro locks. I had an alt destro lock who I was allowed to gear after my main was done, so I know where the money is =D

 

To be on topic, I wouldn't mind a combat log, mainly to see what smoked me so hard in PvP. Unlike WoW or Warhammer, where the animations were quite similar even faction-wise, TOR mirror classes do thing quite differently, and I wouldn't mind knowing what move or moves split my face open and be able to correlate the animations. Though thanks to the magic of Youtube, there are alternatives.

 

Umm, did you miss the part that I continued this through to Wrath of the Lich King? I played Cataclysm to Heroic Rag and quit for this game. Same thing there. If I wasn't at the top, I was damn near it. 85% of the time, I was on top. It wasn't just the SB spam days of BC. It was like this in Naxx, ICC and in Firelands, etc. until I quit.

 

But I will agree. I would like a combat log. I just don't think that a DPS meter is crucial to the success of some players. I've never used one and I've done just fine.

[zolthie]

Umm, did you miss the part that I continued this through to Wrath of the Lich King? I played Cataclysm to Heroic Rag and quit for this game. Same thing there. If I wasn't at the top, I was damn near it. 85% of the time, I was on top. It wasn't just the SB spam days of BC. It was like this in Naxx, ICC and in Firelands, etc. until I quit.

 

But I will agree. I would like a combat log. I just don't think that a DPS meter is crucial to the success of some players. I've never used one and I've done just fine.

 

You don't need a damage meter to do fine, no one has never said that, no one never will.

[Syrra]

No, the developers are the problem.

 

No target of target

No threat system

No threat meter

No damage meter

No macros

No combat logs

 

We are not spoiled if we would have these, these are a few of the ingredients to creating a successful MMO.

 

These things among others are a necessity.

 

Without key things being in a MMO, launched in 2011 with 6+ years of work put into it, why would people fund it? Makes no sense.

 

You are nothing but the typical lazy gamer. Learn to actually play the game, and you don't need a threat meter telling you anything. People used to dps in many games before warcraft's threat meters came out just fine. It comes from actually playing the game, and have any skill at your role.

 

Only thing on this list of yours that I agree with is Target of Target.

[Chaosmagistrate]

Umm, did you miss the part that I continued this through to Wrath of the Lich King? I played Cataclysm to Heroic Rag and quit for this game. Same thing there. If I wasn't at the top, I was damn near it. 85% of the time, I was on top. It wasn't just the SB spam days of BC. It was like this in Naxx, ICC and in Firelands, etc. until I quit.

 

But I will agree. I would like a combat log. I just don't think that a DPS meter is crucial to the success of some players. I've never used one and I've done just fine.

 

I didn't miss it, I just quite before the SWP-nerf, so I can't say much past that. I have a policy to keep my mouth shut when I have little knowledge in areas of discussion.

 

I was more making a humour jibe at you, as there are bitter memories of losing the first Zhar'doom to an Affie lock, who had zero haste at the time.

 

In truth I was actually a big fan of Lossendil's WWStats(sp?), because it was a nice way to break things down more objectively than in the raid itself, because frustration and anger tend to cloud judgement.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Chaosmagistrate

[Ambrogino]

The problem is that we have all been completely spoiled by another game engine that has had 7 years and over 100 million dollars every month in subscriptions at its peak to become finely tuned and polished.

 

That's funny... So, in your opinion new technological advances in programming and game development do not need to be taken into consideration? Do you still use a flip phone too?

 

IMO your wrong, heck, why do you think GM, Ford and Chrylser were losing market share to Toyota and Honda?. Same rules apply here, players are the market and they know what they want. WoW may be the big guy on the block but poor design is what's wrong with this game.

 

Also It would have been nice if BW would have at least attempted to advance the MMO genre but instead decided to give us a sinlge player MMO experience. Maybe they just had too much on their plate? Maybe their just sub par developers? Maybe they sold EA and us on an ideal?

 

Ultimately the market will decied in the next 2 months? And while you may cling to an old idea of being thankful for what you got, but I'm paying more for an MMO that offers less than their competitors and I have a right to my opinion too...

[moosedog]

You are nothing but the typical lazy gamer. Learn to actually play the game, and you don't need a threat meter telling you anything. People used to dps in many games before warcraft's threat meters came out just fine. It comes from actually playing the game, and have any skill at your role.

 

Only thing on this list of yours that I agree with is Target of Target.

 

No target of target either you lazy gamer, do you want everything handed to you? go back to wow. People did fine long before target of target, learn to actually play the game and target one thing at a time.

 

So sick of these entitled gamers. Also need to fix the crafting system, how incredibly lazy its it?? Players should have to farm materials themselves like it was back in the day, not just send a companion.

[ajjw]

In truth I was actually a big fan of Lossendil's WWStats(sp?), because it was a nice way to break things down more objectively than in the raid itself, because frustration and anger tend to cloud judgement.

WWS/WoL was indeed a very nice tool - You could get a much deeper understanding of what caused a wipe by analysing those parses.

Edited January 5, 2012 by ajjw

[Syas]

That's funny... So, in your opinion new technological advances in programming and game development do not need to be taken into consideration? Do you still use a flip phone too?

Nope, I use a non-iPhone though, and I don't go around raging about "WELL THE IPHONE DOES IT!!>!>@>@!J><!@#"

 

IMO your wrong, heck, why do you think GM, Ford and Chrylser were losing market share to Toyota and Honda?. Same rules apply here, players are the market and they know what they want. WoW may be the big guy on the block but poor design is what's wrong with this game.

So WoW should have been an EQ clone?

 

Also It would have been nice if BW would have at least attempted to advance the MMO genre but instead decided to give us a sinlge player MMO experience. Maybe they just had too much on their plate? Maybe their just sub par developers? Maybe they sold EA and us on an ideal?

Remind me which MMO game offers the storyline integration on the level of SWTOR again...

 

Ultimately the market will decied in the next 2 months? And while you may cling to an old idea of being thankful for what you got, but I'm paying more for an MMO that offers less than their competitors and I have a right to my opinion too...

 

Or we just aren't looking for "WoW with Lightsabers".

[Troezar]

This game is excellent for a launch. Good solid base to work from. How anyone with more than a single figure IQ could expect it to be as polished as a 7yr old game I don't know?!

 

Really if people had any idea what goes into writing something as complex as an MMO I think they would think before posting. I've kept my eye on this one for years and can say so far it has exceeded expectations, try playing other MMO's as launch and you'll see what a great job Bioware have done.

 

Two things to consider about life, nothing is ever perfect and you can't please all of the people all of the time. Once you accept this life becomes so much less frustrating and much more enjoyable

[Celestry]

More damage doesn't necessarily mean spamming that ability is more dps. Killing a mob faster than you killed another one means nothing. You can't come up with rotations and tell if its good or not by just testing in-game without any type of information on it.

 

Your health goes down = You are taking damage, doesn't mean you draw aggro, it just means something hit you and brought your health down.

2. NPC is going down faster = The group has good dps, One guy could be doing 90% and the other one 10%, one is bad, one is good, no one knows.

3. Taking damage, losing health doesn't mean you have aggro.

 

Most bosses, and mobs, have abilities they use on random targets, some bosses just randomly switches to another target for few seconds, as he has aggro, then switch back to the tank and it never happens again.

 

Target of target is needed because some bosses starts to channel random ability on someone, you have no idea who because there is no target of target. Same goes for pvp, you have no idea who is casting on who because there is no target of target. You just have to guess and pray that you are right.

 

There's no arguments that works against having these stuffs. These are vital things that are needed in MMOs today, without them, this game won't last very long.

 

You can play without a damage meter and still deal good damage, of course, but you have no idea how anyone is doing without them and you will not be able to adjust when you can't find out who or what the problem is.

 

Maybe the raid should randomly kick someone and hope he was the problem? Great solution!

 

1. I have a definate rotaion that I have figured out both soloing and in groups. By feild testing it I know it works better.

 

2. Yes bosses can rotate aggro, a treat meter will never help you with this kind of aggro. It will always be difficult to pin down random aggro and hits. Even a log can not help you determin when and if that hit will come again.

 

3. Why do you care so much about what other people in your group are doing all the time? If you are having fun and beating bosses things are working fairly well. If a person is standing around doing zero that is usually easy to spot without a meter. Nobody wants a person that is obviously just tagging along or lazy in a group. We all hope to avoid bad players, and if we find one, we do not team with them again or kick them. I have never needed meters to help me decide who was a good or bad player. You want ammunition to kick a player even if things went well because you determined their whatever was not up to snuff. You said it yourself, you are looking to kick people from groups, based on how you think they are playing. You have a right to do that. You, however seem overly concerned with your, loot, bragging rights, and false feelings of superiority rather than having fun playing a game. Maybe this is why BW did not want meters and combat logs, so immature, uptight people are deprived of ammunition to solidify their elitist "gaming" cred and the resulting attitude they shower upon others in the game. The wanted to create a laid back, friendly gaming environment. It is a doomed idea, but a lofty goal.

 

4. Nothing is vital if the game can be played successfully without it. Vital by definition says without x your will never be successful. Where is that the case here. You have repeatedly said the game is easy, but then say something is vital, if the game is easy what you are asking for is by definition NOT vital.

 

You think these things are vital and you want them it really all boils down to that. If they are vital to you, I will never change your mind. It is obvious many do not agree, and these are the choice BW has made. It has everything to do with what you expect (you can not generalize and say players). When we agree to play the game we are restricted by what the developer has chosen to do. It has no relation to what has been done in the past, but what BW has picked to do now. I have a feeling most of these items were not ommisions, but rather decisions not to include made by BW

[Racheakt]

Target of Target was not released with WoW.

Neither was the integrated threat system.(Was 3rd party addon.)

See above.

Damage meter was also 3rd party.

Macros? Really? I've pretty sure there was a point in time that rogues could make a macro and just spam it and pull 10k dps at one point in time.

 

WoW was successful because it was polished and adhered to the masses. Not because of these addons.

 

To be fair those are now considered common and expected mmo elements, to use the excuse "well 8 years ago MMO X did not have them either"

 

Heck 18 years ago multiplayer games were text based, and the communities were better.

 

kids and your new fangled direct-x powerd barbie dress up

Edited January 5, 2012 by Racheakt

[ForlornHope]

i dunno, i remember wow's combat/gameplay being way more fun at launch than this game's

 

gameplay is what keeps people playing them for 10+ years

 

counter-strike

warcraft

starcraft

halo 2

 

 

wow's budget 40 to 60mil?

swtor 100 to ??300??

 

You are experiencing what is called Nostalgia

[Manilix]

1. I have a definate rotaion that I have figured out both soloing and in groups. By feild testing it I know it works better.

 

Shortendend the rest, sry, read above. BW

 

You are forgetting a very simple thing. Excellence. Some people strive for it. myself included, i WANT to do my best, i WANT to push my class to the limit, get the best out of it. It is simply impossible to do so without some sort of feedback from the game (ie. damage meters and so on)

 

I am not saying you cant play the game without these, just saying that FOR ME it is alot less fun.

[Beastfury]

Considering that the world top 25 guilds I was in (WoW) with a USA world first in vanilla and a few top 25 kills in BC and Wrath, I almost always topped the meters. You know how I know this? Because someone reported the meter at the end of the fight.

 

Did I need a meter to succeed? Nope. I like meters, but they're not needed to be successful.

 

1)I think you are full of #$%

2) Even if you are not (and yes it does hurt my little but precious ego to accept that it might be true), You are a MAJOR exception to the rule.

My lock knowledge is lacking. But playing feral from vanilla to Cata, not anywhere near top 25, maybe top 1000 at the high peak. There is no way in hell i could compete on dps without hour of target dummy practice, figuring out when and how powershifting was worth it or not. Figuring out was letting rip drop of for few second worth the extra FB hit. That said i was almost always close to top feral parses out there. Rarely #1 however purely due to class balance. (And yes i was consistently #1 dps in early BC and early LK those were golden feral times.)

BUt yet again, i got there BECAUSE i put alot of hard work on target dummies with damage meter to guide me. Call me bad if you want. But from where i am standing which is "highish" level rading damage meters are essential to my character progression.

[Oldmanwinter]

I will gladly bump this.

 

I'm tired of seeing all the threads from people complaining so much about the release. The OP is absolutely right. Most MMO's out there have been around for a while and have had lots of time to upgrade parts of the game in which people wanted changed.

 

The game hasn't been out for a month. These games take time to evolve, and not every little thing will be addressed.

 

If you're not enjoying the game's features, OK, quit.

[lueckjathom]

That's funny... So, in your opinion new technological advances in programming and game development do not need to be taken into consideration? Do you still use a flip phone too?

 

IMO your wrong, heck, why do you think GM, Ford and Chrylser were losing market share to Toyota and Honda?. Same rules apply here, players are the market and they know what they want. WoW may be the big guy on the block but poor design is what's wrong with this game.

 

Also It would have been nice if BW would have at least attempted to advance the MMO genre but instead decided to give us a sinlge player MMO experience. Maybe they just had too much on their plate? Maybe their just sub par developers? Maybe they sold EA and us on an ideal?

 

Ultimately the market will decied in the next 2 months? And while you may cling to an old idea of being thankful for what you got, but I'm paying more for an MMO that offers less than their competitors and I have a right to my opinion too...

 

You are right, actually. If you look at it strictly from the viewpoint of a consumer paying for a product, paying for SW:ToR is paying for a vastly inferior game engine for the same price. Fortunately, an MMO is not a car, a toaster, a cell phone, or any other simple consumer product that provides a single function that once paid for stays in its current form. It is a subscription to a form of entertainment and to a living, changing community.

 

You can choose to help that community grow and turn into something better, or you can choose to stick with "the big kid on the block" that has already developed into its full potential. There is no right or wrong answer.

 

The point of this post was that (despite your belief that once someone else has developed technology it should be free for someone else to implement and support into their own product) by MMO launch standards, this game is starting off with a pretty good foundation for a great game once they work out some kinks and add a few sorely missed conveniences.

[Ambrogino]

Nope, I use a non-iPhone though, and I don't go around raging about "WELL THE IPHONE DOES IT!!>!>@>@!J><!@#"

 

So WoW should have been an EQ clone?Remind me which MMO game offers the storyline integration on the level of SWTOR again...QUOTE]

 

1. I didn't ask if you used an iPhone, but it's nice to know that you use modern technology.

 

2. Actually WoW was an EQ clone, which is what it had to deal with for many years and andvances made in other games forced WoW to upgrade it's capabilities.

 

FYI, story integration, LotRO offers cutcenes that follow the Lore and AOC provides VO cutcenes, the only difference is your reply is not voiced.

[Syas]

1. I didn't ask if you used an iPhone, but it's nice to know that you use modern technology.

Your arguement is "WoW has this, SWTOR doesn't so I am going to RAGGGGGEEEE!" that is a better comparison (iPhone to non iPhone) than yours.

 

2. Actually WoW was an EQ clone, which is what it had to deal with for many years and andvances made in other games forced WoW to upgrade it's capabilities.

Did you PLAY Everquest? WoW was a child's playground compared to it. WoW was drastically easier, allowed soloing, had instances, flight points, early/easy access to mounts, better guild structure, etc. It also lacked a lot of good things about EQ - more diverse environments, socializing, a true RP server, player reliance on other players, more NPC cities, individual factions.

 

FYI, story integration, LotRO offers cutcenes that follow the Lore and AOC provides VO cutcenes, the only difference is your reply is not voiced.

Except it is the same story for every class except in various small places.

[beaujames]

What would the Smartphone Market look like without Apple's iPhone?

 

The Iphone was a huge innovation back then, now Android rules the market. Android has been fine tuning their OS over time. Be patient, and bugs and blemishes will be fixed. Games like this are very complex and intricate. You honestly can't expect something new to come out with perfection.

 

The Iphone has had many MR updated and OS updates through its life span. Nothing starts out perfect.

[Isende]

I will gladly bump this.

 

I'm tired of seeing all the threads from people complaining so much about the release. The OP is absolutely right. Most MMO's out there have been around for a while and have had lots of time to upgrade parts of the game in which people wanted changed.

 

The game hasn't been out for a month. These games take time to evolve, and not every little thing will be addressed.

 

If you're not enjoying the game's features, OK, quit.

 

interesting point that many are failing to understand:

 

IF the state of current mmos includes:

• optimizable/customizable ui
  
• combat log
  
• combat with no discernible delay in casting spells/abilities
  
• target-of-target, both for viewing and casting
  
• a raid ui that accurately depicts player hp
  

 

among others; and

IF the state of current mmos also includes:

• a functional trade ui that enables one to swiftly place and make bids/orders
  
• a functional chat system that doesn't break every five minutes (maybe it's fixed now?)
  
• trade skills that create sellable items for end-game play
  

 

and IF this game has been in production for ... three years now?

 

the question then becomes -- why were these items that made those other games so successful completely overlooked?

 

this doesn't actually take into account the other myriad bugs that ARE in fact a part of any launch -- quests mislabeled/glitching, mapping of terrain causing los issues on apparently flat ground, and i could VERY much go on.

 

these are things that have been a standard since tor went into production. so, again -- the simple question: why were they overlooked as integral parts of a successful mmo?

Edited January 5, 2012 by Isende