Jopster Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 This is reason enough to cancel for me, I am just stunned at how many that believe that it doesn`t matter. Along with all the things I and many with me have gotten used to in mmo`s over the years that this game lacks the combat clunkiness is just the iceberg that will sink the game for sure if not fixed soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taeldian Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 What type of control of your character do you want? In real life, if you were to do x action, could you instantly "cancel" that action and do another? No. But that's the type of "responsiveness" Xcore and some others here are looking for. The type of responsiveness I want is that when I press a key, the avatar does an action that takes a certain amount of time to carry through, and SOME of those actions AREN'T IMMEDIATELY INTERRUPTABLE by another keypress. This simulates weight, mass, momentum, etc. And I want this to work without glitches related to GCD, ability firing, animation stuttering, etc. You do realize there's a global cooldown, right? You're severely overstating the idea of being able to suddenly cancel one action and perform another instead "instantly." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jopster Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 I'm actually watching neither. I'm watching the enemy's health bar and my surroundings. You know, because I'm actually trying to maintain situational awareness while I'm fighting; I don't need to watch cooldowns because I know what ability I want to use next based on the situation. I'm not used to mindlessly staring at a toolbar spamming a rotation because I actually try to be more heads-up than that. I find the expectation that I start doing that to be utterly ridiculous. With all feedback outside the cooldown itself being tied to the animation, the animation being delayed is a huge deal. The next ability not being executable until the animation finishes, which delays my next attack, is also a huge deal. I'm seriously sick of you trying to trivialize this as being my fault for trying to watch my character do pretty animations. If the animations are so disconnected from the other feedback your UI is giving you that watching the animations is impractical, maybe you actually are experiencing the problem and have no idea because you never look up from your toolbar. Well put Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terko_Koslah Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 So to correct some of the delay issues conversed on this thread the answer would be to include the animation inside the cast bar oppose to directly after it. An example would be charged burst. How would that work? Any suggestions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasperion Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 This simulates weight, mass, momentum, etc. And yet, your character can run perpetually and turn instantly, completely ignoring things like weight, mass, momentum that you claim you want as staples of your experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taeldian Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 And yet, your character can run perpetually and turn instantly, completely ignoring things like weight, mass, momentum that you claim you want as staples of your experience. There's always LARPing, I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jopster Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 There's always LARPing, I guess. Time to put on the robe and wizard hat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awesomebilly Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 And yet, your character can run perpetually and turn instantly, completely ignoring things like weight, mass, momentum that you claim you want as staples of your experience. /Agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taeldian Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 time to put on the robe and wizard hat lightning bolt! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurugeorge Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 The ability initiates too late, as soon as the castbar completes from the previous ability (and GCD isn't on) the next ability should initiate... rather simple... Don't care about the actual animation... at all... the actual ability is simply not able to initiate because we're busy watching another blaster bolt go (even though the cast bar has concluded and there is no GCD). I actually agree with your first point, that's the main problem I'm experiencing sometimes: with no lag or lag spike present, abilities don't initiate when you expect them to but are delayed. And sometimes there's some kind of glitch in the GCD, and other problems that mean that, on occasion, the system becomes what I call "unresponsive" for short periods. But I don't experience it all the time. There are swathes of time when abilities do initiate as soon as the key is pressed, and combat is smooth and flowing (bar the very occasional lag spike). But you seem to be claiming that you have some knowledge about the game engine or something, that tells you that there is always a delay, but it's sometimes imperceptible (or perceptible only to uber gamers?) What I don't understand is, if it's not just a claim about how leet you are to experience something many people don't experience a lot of the time, if it's genuinely not experienced but "masked" in some way so that it's diminished to imperceptibility, how do you know this, how do you know the problem is literally omnipresent but just sometimes not noticeable, as opposed to a bug or something that only sometimes crops up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taeldian Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 (edited) I actually agree with your first point, that's the main problem I'm experiencing sometimes: with no lag or lag spike present, abilities don't initiate when you expect them to but are delayed. And sometimes there's some kind of glitch in the GCD, and other problems that mean that, on occasion, the system becomes what I call "unresponsive" for short periods. But I don't experience it all the time. There are swathes of time when abilities do initiate as soon as the key is pressed, and combat is smooth and flowing (bar the very occasional lag spike). But you seem to be claiming that you have some knowledge about the game engine or something, that tells you that there is always a delay, but it's sometimes imperceptible (or perceptible only to uber gamers?) What I don't understand is, if it's not just a claim about how leet you are to experience something many people don't experience a lot of the time, if it's genuinely not experienced but "masked" in some way so that it's diminished to imperceptibility, how do you know this, how do you know the problem is literally omnipresent but just sometimes not noticeable, as opposed to a bug or something that only sometimes crops up? It's more speculation than anything. edit: My speculation is based off of people saying things like, "I don't know, something just feels...off." Not really being able to define the problem, but knowing there is one. I'm personally more than willing to believe it doesn't happen to everyone, so long as others are willing to believe it does happen. Edited January 7, 2012 by Taeldian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurugeorge Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 And yet, your character can run perpetually and turn instantly, completely ignoring things like weight, mass, momentum that you claim you want as staples of your experience. Actually, I often walk and don't have sprint on all the time (unless I'm having to cram some game time in). I'd much prefer an exhaustion mechanic, but one has to contend with everyone's desire to rush around achieving stuff Obviously these are just representations and have to be abstracted or time/space compressed and "miniaturized" for various reasons. It's just a relative point: I prefer a "weighty" feel (e.g. SWTOR, AoC) to a "floaty" feel (WoW, GW). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballofuzz Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 (edited) So for the longest time I have been reading this (and other similar threads) and thinking that the people complaining were either being overly critical and dramatic, if not outright lying, as i was simply not seeing anything like what was being described in text and demonstrated in videos. Today i happened to update my video driver (ATI 5860), do to an issue i was trouble shooting, and when I later fired up SWTOR, BLAM.... there is was... exactly what people were saying, and demonstrating in the videos. My framerate was about the same but interface/ability lag was.... while not "unplayable" highly annoying and disorienting. Needless to say i rolled back my drivers and BOOM. back to "near WOW performance". (there is still a hint of lag, but it is almost unnoticeable under any but the most extreme conditions.) Im guessing this is defiantly a Direct X/driver/program issue, and i hope it gets resolved soon. As for me im staying with my year and a half old driver and enjoying the game. Edited January 7, 2012 by ballofuzz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taeldian Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 So for the longest time I have been reading this (and other similar threads) and thinking that the people complaining were either being overly critical and dramatic, if not outright lying, as i was simply not seeing anything like what was being described in text and demonstrated in videos. Today i happened to update my video driver (ATI 5860), do to an issue i was trouble shooting, and when I later fired up SWTOR, BLAM.... there is was... exactly what people were saying, and demonstrating in the videos. My framerate was about the same but interface/ability lag was.... while not "unplayable" highly annoying and disorienting. Needless to say i rolled back my drivers and BOOM. back to near WOW performance. (there is still a hint of lag, but it is almost unnoticeable under any but the most extreme conditions.) Im guessing this is defiantly a Direct X/driver/program issue, and i hope it gets resolved soon. As for me im staying with my year and a half old driver and enjoying the game. Just for the record, the problem is minimal on my GTX 580. My brother has serious problems with dual 9800GTs and another system with an 8800GT. All three are using the latest NVidia drivers for their respective cards. Hope this helps, Bioware! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xcore Posted January 7, 2012 Author Share Posted January 7, 2012 I actually agree with your first point, that's the main problem I'm experiencing sometimes: with no lag or lag spike present, abilities don't initiate when you expect them to but are delayed. And sometimes there's some kind of glitch in the GCD, and other problems that mean that, on occasion, the system becomes what I call "unresponsive" for short periods. But I don't experience it all the time. There are swathes of time when abilities do initiate as soon as the key is pressed, and combat is smooth and flowing (bar the very occasional lag spike). But you seem to be claiming that you have some knowledge about the game engine or something, that tells you that there is always a delay, but it's sometimes imperceptible (or perceptible only to uber gamers?) What I don't understand is, if it's not just a claim about how leet you are to experience something many people don't experience a lot of the time, if it's genuinely not experienced but "masked" in some way so that it's diminished to imperceptibility, how do you know this, how do you know the problem is literally omnipresent but just sometimes not noticeable, as opposed to a bug or something that only sometimes crops up? I agree with all points, firstly the same ability can display greater and lesser delay at different times. The reason behind this is that its relative to how it is used... for example, I can always show the delay in aimed show when I use a very tight rotation of charge bursts and trickshots followed by an aimed shot. However, if I just go into cover and use aimed shot, its seemingly fine... but it isn't. Even if "I don't notice" the delay, its still there, or should I say the potential for it is. Its merely masked by the fact that under the circumstances that I am using it, its fine. I suppose I'm not expressing myself well enough on this point. In WoW for example, there is no way to reliably bug out the system in this fashion. If I spam nothing but frostbolt, or if I do some weird rotation of pyroblast/scorch/fire blast into a frostbolt... it will always trigger the "exact" same way as it should. Here however, you have the same abilities behaving inconsistently based on previous abilities used, based if you're in cover or not, based on if a seagull is flying above, who knows. When I say its happening "all the time, to "all" abilities" even if its masked, I mean that the potential for it is always there. Its an issue with how the game is coded, either engine code or client/server comm through network coding... perhaps feature code? I'm not sure, no-one can be besides Bioware or a serious professional. Also, when I say "all the time its there, even if you don't notice it", I mean that its not just a Bug... the solution is NOT saying "Oh well, we need to fix how Aimed Shot triggers following this rotation of Charge Burst/Trick Shot!" No, you need to f****** figure out a more reliable system, in which the abilities are perhaps independently "always" consistently performing exactly how you'd expect them to. This is why "very good" gamers can play WoW without EVER once looking at their abilities bar. Because its SO reliable, so predictable... so stable... no matter what you do, it'll perform EXACTLY how you'd expect. In SW:TOR... well who knows what will bug out, delay, not properly trigger etc. etc. Its "CLUNKY" Now, last point... "only uber gamers etc." yes, believe it or not, better and more "competitive" and especially professional gamers... will see all these issues LONG before you and I. Mr. Casual has no idea what we're even talking about probably (not all...). but to someone like Reedful this game is ABSOLUTELY unplayable... because he is just on that level of perception that playing this unreliable, clunky crap is like nails on a chalkboard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasperion Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Actually, I often walk and don't have sprint on all the time (unless I'm having to cram some game time in). I'd much prefer an exhaustion mechanic, but one has to contend with everyone's desire to rush around achieving stuff . So, wait, are you saying you actually WALK? Because there are three speeds to moving. 1. Walking. 2. Running. 3. Sprinting. Just having Sprint turned off means you would be running. Perpetually. You'd actually have to use "/" to truly walk. So, do you walk or run? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurugeorge Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 You are correct, as much as I want decent animations if forced to chose I would always prefer gameplay. I don't think this is the game for you in fact if you are seeking ultra-realism as described above... perhaps if The Sims Online worked out you'd have enjoyed it. Actually, it's already evident that isn't the game for you. You seem to think there's some deep problem with the "game engine". If so, it will never be "fixed" to your satisfaction, so you might as well give up your crusade now. Perhaps you could go back to that game with jerky little cartoon elves, at which you seem to be oh so leet, and in which you seem to have invested oh so much time ... (Two can play that game, sonny ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xcore Posted January 7, 2012 Author Share Posted January 7, 2012 Just for the record, the problem is minimal on my GTX 580. My brother has serious problems with dual 9800GTs and another system with an 8800GT. All three are using the latest NVidia drivers for their respective cards. Hope this helps, Bioware! Its not a hardware issue, its the game. However, natural server lag/lag spikes or simply slow computers providing low FPS further compound the issue to be EVEN MORE noticeable. This is natural and logical... slow + slow = HOLY **** SLOW... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taeldian Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Its not a hardware issue, its the game. However, natural server lag/lag spikes or simply slow computers providing low FPS further compound the issue to be EVEN MORE noticeable. This is natural and logical... slow + slow = HOLY **** SLOW... Only posting those specs because of the gentleman citing driver problems. I figured I'd say what hardware I'm using so they can narrow down which drivers if there is a problem on that end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xcore Posted January 7, 2012 Author Share Posted January 7, 2012 Actually, it's already evident that isn't the game for you. You seem to think there's some deep problem with the "game engine". If so, it will never be "fixed" to your satisfaction, so you might as well give up your crusade now. Perhaps you could go back to that game with jerky little cartoon elves, at which you seem to be oh so leet, and in which you seem to have invested oh so much time ... (Two can play that game, sonny ) I don't know what sonny means but I will let Bioware tell me the above statement that this isn't the game for me, not you... I will be happy in fact to go back to WoW as it has been "very" tempting over the past week. Bioware need only let me know... so far, it appears they're acknowledging everything this thread stands for. Lets see what happens, I have no problem with this being fixed to my/and many people's satisfaction and play SW:TOR forever... or if they you do turn out to be right and it is not fixed to my/our satisfaction... I'll simply play WoW, no harm done... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taeldian Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Actually, it's already evident that isn't the game for you. You seem to think there's some deep problem with the "game engine". If so, it will never be "fixed" to your satisfaction, so you might as well give up your crusade now. Perhaps you could go back to that game with jerky little cartoon elves, at which you seem to be oh so leet, and in which you seem to have invested oh so much time ... (Two can play that game, sonny ) I think this can and should be the game for all of us. JUST SAYING Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurugeorge Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 So, wait, are you saying you actually WALK? Because there are three speeds to moving. 1. Walking. 2. Running. 3. Sprinting. Just having Sprint turned off means you would be running. Perpetually. You'd actually have to use "/" to truly walk. So, do you walk or run? Often walk, sometimes run, sometimes sprint. Just like real life, actually. Only, in game, I'm about a dozen times more athletic I love walking in MMOs. I used to walk a lot in LOTRO. Recently I walked through a lot of Tattoine, just to get a feeling of being on an alien desert world, with the sun beating down ... One advantage of walking is it makes the game world seem bigger. (Interestingly, there's the opposite effect in the superhero MMOs - because you get your "mount" - travel power - early on, psychologically the game world shrinks, so even though the zones in games like CoX and CO aren't all that small, you often see pseudo-knowledegable complaints about "tiny zones". No, it's just psychological, because you're zipping around from day 1.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xcore Posted January 7, 2012 Author Share Posted January 7, 2012 Only posting those specs because of the gentleman citing driver problems. I figured I'd say what hardware I'm using so they can narrow down which drivers if there is a problem on that end. I'm sure there are drive issues at this stage of release... I'm not disagreeing just stating that I don't believe them to be the crux of this general problem here. I still see green beams and tree flutter... though I have not updated my drivers, new ones came out few days ago... I'm running 560 OC 2GB etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awesomebilly Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Actually, I often walk and don't have sprint on all the time (unless I'm having to cram some game time in). I'd much prefer an exhaustion mechanic, but one has to contend with everyone's desire to rush around achieving stuff Obviously these are just representations and have to be abstracted or time/space compressed and "miniaturized" for various reasons. It's just a relative point: I prefer a "weighty" feel (e.g. SWTOR, AoC) to a "floaty" feel (WoW, GW). My dear, You are 1 in a million Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terko_Koslah Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 It's a shame this a ability delay only now gets the attention it should. It should have been fixed in beta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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