JSykes Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Apparently you're not aware of what a straw-man argument is. Too bad. Fact: There is no valid, objective argument against Dual spec. Yes, there is. The respec fees are a excellent credit sink which help keeps the economy in check. There is a complete correlation in WoW as the main example of Dual Spec's being implemented and the buying power of Gold going down. Once people got their PvP and PvE specs popped into place properly, they never had to pay to respec until a patch came out. Prior to Dual Specs, the constant respecing helped keep inflation at bay. There you go, valid argument against Dual Spec, have a nice day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invispoet Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 It has everything to do with the current topic. You argue for convenience. Answer it. Not really. You do realize the majority of level 50 activities take place on ONE planet, and the fleeet, right? travel is not an issue. I'm not arguing for convience just for the sake of convenience. I'm asking for a feature that has become a staple of current MMORPGS, that creates a VERY noticable increase in the playability of ALL aspects of group play. If you dont want to use it for some insane reason, you dont have to, but including it causes no inconvenience to you or anyone else that is against it. Which goes back to my post about self entitlement. I'm asking for something that would let ME (and let's be realistic, at least 90% of the playerbase) enjoy the game more, and not affect YOUR gameplay at all. You're asking for something that will, for NO logical reason, restrict everyone's gameplay, waste people's time needlessly (you know, the 15 other people that are waiting for you to respec, get your keybinds reset and such), and generally cause absolutely NO good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kashaan Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) Yes, there is. The respec fees are a excellent credit sink which help keeps the economy in check. There is a complete correlation in WoW as the main example of Dual Spec's being implemented and the buying power of Gold going down. Once people got their PvP and PvE specs popped into place properly, they never had to pay to respec until a patch came out. Prior to Dual Specs, the constant respecing helped keep inflation at bay. There you go, valid argument against Dual Spec, have a nice day. Nope, this is just flat-out wrong. It's not an effective money sink at all. It's an incredibly minor one, since people stop using Respec when the cost gets to a significant level. It can barely be called a money sink in the first place. Futhermore, Dual spec does not stop people from respecing. The type of people that want Dual spec use more than two specs. So Respecing will continue to be the minor money sink that it is.... Dual spec won't change that. Now, if you let people have 5 specs like Rift does, that might have an effect... oh wait, it didn't. Edited January 10, 2012 by Kashaan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invispoet Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) Yes, there is. The respec fees are a excellent credit sink which help keeps the economy in check. There is a complete correlation in WoW as the main example of Dual Spec's being implemented and the buying power of Gold going down. Once people got their PvP and PvE specs popped into place properly, they never had to pay to respec until a patch came out. Prior to Dual Specs, the constant respecing helped keep inflation at bay. There you go, valid argument against Dual Spec, have a nice day. You're dramatically oversimplifying this, because there were still TONS of respecs to be had. As an example, from a Paladin perspective in wow: Retribution pve Retribution pvp Protection PvE Holy PvE (single target, Word of glory spec) Holy PvE (AoE focused, Light of Dawn spec) Holy PvP Ghetto Protection pvp Clearly dual spec covers ALL POSSIBLE avenues right? We have plenty of Credit sinks in the game already, and honestly crafting can be an insane sink in and of itself, not counting the MULTIPLE 1.5 million credit speeders. Whoever said the respec cost resets ever week is lying, or it's bugged. I respec'd my bounty hunter to heal Mandalorian raiders when i was in my 30s, and then respec'd back to finish leveling. When i hit level 50, and wanted to finalize my raiding spec (healing), i had a 90k respec fee, after respeccing ONLY twice, and NOT having yet respec'd at 50. I'm still waiting to hear how adding dual specs will "ruin the game" Edited January 10, 2012 by invispoet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sendrel Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 There you go, valid argument against Dual Spec, have a nice day. Except its not. If costs associated with respecing are too high, people just won't do it. There are tons of ways to implement credit sinks. If you're pinning your hat on just one, its going to be of limited (at best) effectiveness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tautolitarian Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 If you want bread, order bread! If you want hamburger meat, order hamburger meat! You filthy casuals trying to have it both ways are ruining the game! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muckbeast Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 More than any other fix, piece of content, I would desperately want dual spec. It is by far my #1 most desired feature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajikMyst Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 More than any other fix, piece of content, I would desperately want dual spec. It is by far my #1 most desired feature. Why? Give us all a viable reason?? Reasons not to have it.. All healing classes being asked or demanded to have a healing spec, despite player not wanting to heal in the first place.. This happened constantly in WOW.. Anyone with a tank or healing class were forced to spec that way if they wanted to raid.. It was always nice to be a rogue or a warlock.. This game has no need for dual spec.. There is no reason to dual spec at all.. There is no PVP spec.. The game was designed with the intent that people PVPed in their PVE specs.. Which is why all skill sets are viable.. Tanks and healers can actually kills stuff in PVE and PVP.. We also have companions Which everyone seems to forget about.. People need to learn to use companions.. They can tank, heal, and DPS with the best of them as long as their gear is current.. Again there is no need for dual specs.. If you don't want to heal then don't.. If you do then do.. If you want to change every once in a while then see the guy at the capital cities.. He can reset your talents for a fee.. There is nothing wrong with this system.. It worked great in WOW over the first 6 years of so.. Dual speccing in many ways started the decline.. Because people weren't really good at playing one class or one spec.. They were so so at playing multiple specs.. Viable pugs became a rare thing.. Now hardly anyone knows how to play their toons.. While I don't suspect gear will be much of an issue as there really isn't much in the way of healing gear and tank gear.. Bioware geared classes instead of specs.. So each class in a way has their own gear type.. Bottom line is there is no reason to dual spec in this game.. People can already reset their talents when ever they want.. It can get spendy if are changing specs like a baby going through diapers.. There is a supposed to be a sense of realism in this game if you will.. Nobody should be able to just do it all with the press of the button.. In the end.. Dual speccing will add to the already sense of laziness that many gamers have.. They want to sit back and watch the game play itself.. They want super gear that can do it all and kill everything.. They don't want to wait.. They don't want to earn it.. They want it handed to them.. It will have no impact on anyone in this game to leave the current speccing system as is.. We have pleanty of tanks and healers.. Groups are going nicely. Heck.. I was in a group that was all DPS.. Companions tanked and healed.. It was awsome!! This was a flashpoint by the way.. Again just make sure they are geared like you are.. So here it is people.. One more post to add to the thousands that are never read that explain why we should not have dual speccing.. There no viable reason for dual speccing in this game.. Not in the way it was designed.. There is no class that is handicapped for leveling as either tank or heals.. Companions also help with that.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlickDevlan Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Apparently you're not aware of what a straw-man argument is. Too bad. Fact: There is no valid, objective argument against Dual spec. So you prattle about strawman arguments but automatically decry any argument you don't agree with as subjective? Classic... P.S. Dual specs are contrary to the entire point of specs. There is no point in having them if you can be everything at at any given time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajikMyst Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 So you prattle about strawman arguments but automatically decry any argument you don't agree with as subjective? Classic... P.S. Dual specs are contrary to the entire point of specs. There is no point in having them if you can be everything at at any given time. ^^ BLAMO!!! A award for you!! No point in having a spec if you can be any spec at any time.. Classic!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leilei Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Imo they should fix the respec costs... its been around...5 days since I last respecced. That time, my respec cost was soewhere around 40k. I check today how much it costs to see if it dropped at all and guess what? Its 66k to respec. -.- I just wanna try the other specs to see which I enjoy most! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kashaan Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 So you prattle about strawman arguments but automatically decry any argument you don't agree with as subjective? Classic... P.S. Dual specs are contrary to the entire point of specs. There is no point in having them if you can be everything at at any given time. No, I decry subjective arguments as subjective. And subjective arguments are not a valid reason to deny a dual spec to people that want it. Dual specs are not contrary to the point of specs. The point of specs is to allow people to play their character with different playstyles: PvE tank, PvE healer, PvE DPS, PvP tank, PvP healer, PvP DPS, etc. Dual spec allows you to "favorite" two specific specs that you want to use the most. You still have to respec for any other spec you want to switch to. If respecing is in a game (and it is in TOR), there is no reason to deny dual spec. There is no objective reason, and any subjective reasoning traces back to being able to respec at all, nothing with dual spec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moricthian Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Not really. You do realize the majority of level 50 activities take place on ONE planet, and the fleeet, right? travel is not an issue. I'm not arguing for convience just for the sake of convenience. I'm asking for a feature that has become a staple of current MMORPGS, that creates a VERY noticable increase in the playability of ALL aspects of group play. If you dont want to use it for some insane reason, you dont have to, but including it causes no inconvenience to you or anyone else that is against it. Which goes back to my post about self entitlement. I'm asking for something that would let ME (and let's be realistic, at least 90% of the playerbase) enjoy the game more, and not affect YOUR gameplay at all. You're asking for something that will, for NO logical reason, restrict everyone's gameplay, waste people's time needlessly (you know, the 15 other people that are waiting for you to respec, get your keybinds reset and such), and generally cause absolutely NO good. This. If you don't want duel spec, don't use it. Don't whine against a useful feature a lot of people will like because you have an elitist CHOICES AND OPTOINSA R BADD!!!111!!!1 attitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varghjerta Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) No, I decry subjective arguments as subjective. And subjective arguments are not a valid reason to deny a dual spec to people that want it. Dual specs are not contrary to the point of specs. The point of specs is to allow people to play their character with different playstyles: PvE tank, PvE healer, PvE DPS, PvP tank, PvP healer, PvP DPS, etc. Dual spec allows you to "favorite" two specific specs that you want to use the most. You still have to respec for any other spec you want to switch to. If respecing is in a game (and it is in TOR), there is no reason to deny dual spec. There is no objective reason, and any subjective reasoning traces back to being able to respec at all, nothing with dual spec. So same can be said about teleportation then aswell thanks to emergency fleet pass it is already in the game so there is no reason not being able to teleport wherever you want for free? But the real question is if people could save the hotbar and abilities but still pay the same amount of money would that be acceptable or do people feel entitled having 2 speccs for free in the game because only one game have it wow , But Wow have pink fluffy unicorn aswell so the should Swtor have that aswell? (Lol i mean some people are even complaining that mounts and abilities cost money in this game) Pro for dual specc : Convinience, Cost less credits.......... But i am amazed most of the pro dual specc cant admit that they do not want to spend money for convinience Just because i can eat hamburgers in a restaurant i dont go and demand that it should look and taste exactly as Mcdonals either Edited January 10, 2012 by Varghjerta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nevid Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Here is an objective argument against dual spec. There are 8 classes (4 really)Each class has 2 advanced classes Each advanced class essentially has 2 general specs No one argues that you should be able to "dual class" or "dual advance class". You're looking at respecs as if their purpose is to allow characters to change their playstyle on a whim. I see respecs as a way to try and tailor your character exactly to your playstyle. Sometimes you get it wrong, and you have to respec to correct. Re-specs are not so that you pick the two mainstream, cookie cutter specs, and have both available at all times. You act as if YOU are the one advocating more choice, but you're actually reducing choice, because you're basically asking that people don't have to make a choice. Also, as stated before, easy respeccing leads to people never really learning to play their character. You can't look at WoW and say that hasn't happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rheinland Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Here is an objective argument against dual spec. There are 8 classes (4 really) Each class has 2 advanced classes Each advanced class essentially has 2 general specs No one argues that you should be able to "dual class" or "dual advance class". You're looking at respecs as if their purpose is to allow characters to change their playstyle on a whim. I see respecs as a way to try and tailor your character exactly to your playstyle. Sometimes you get it wrong, and you have to respec to correct. Re-specs are not so that you pick the two mainstream, cookie cutter specs, and have both available at all times. You act as if YOU are the one advocating more choice, but you're actually reducing choice, because you're basically asking that people don't have to make a choice. Also, as stated before, easy respeccing leads to people never really learning to play their character. You can't look at WoW and say that hasn't happened. I dont have to make a choice i can spec my sith juggernaut how ever i want. If that doesnt suit me i can respec it to another option. i can then level a few levels and respec back. If i then dont like that i can respec again and again and again. There is no cap on respecs if you have the credits you can do whatever you want. Choice is an illusion in this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nevid Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) I dont have to make a choice i can spec my sith juggernaut how ever i want. If that doesnt suit me i can respec it to another option. i can then level a few levels and respec back. If i then dont like that i can respec again and again and again. There is no cap on respecs if you have the credits you can do whatever you want. Choice is an illusion in this case. Except that there is a penalty for respec-ing, and it increases each time you respec. Respec is not there to give you infinite playstyle choices. If it was, respecs would be free. Or we would be able to re-advance class, too. That's not the reason respecs exist. It's there to account for the fact that people don't develop their character perfectly to their playstyle the first time. The reason you think the "single spec" argument is subjective is because you think respecs exist for a different reason than they actually do. Edited January 10, 2012 by nevid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rheinland Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Except that there is a penalty for respec-ing, and it increases each time you respec. Respec is not there to give you infinite playstyle choices. If it was, respecs would be free. Or we would be able to re-advance class, too. That's not the reason respecs exist. It's there to account for the fact that people don't develop their character perfectly to their playstyle the first time. The reason you think the "single spec" argument is subjective is because you think respecs exist for a different reason than they actually do. If your into playing with the GTN and making credits you can do whatever you want with speccing. Its a choice that makes no difference at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nevid Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 If your into playing with the GTN and making credits you can do whatever you want with speccing. Its a choice that makes no difference at all. BS. I don't care who you are, no one can drop 60k credits every other day to respec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varghjerta Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) BS. I don't care who you are, no one can drop 60k credits every other day to respec. Actually can you explain why you feel the need to respecc that much in the game? Edited January 10, 2012 by Varghjerta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaxRendar Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Actually can you explain why you feel the need to respecc that much in the game? Simple... PvE Healer PvP Anything but Healer Want to do my Daily Warfront Missions... Cr100,000-200,000/Day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varghjerta Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) Simple... PvE Healer PvP Anything but Healer Want to do my Daily Warfront Missions... Cr100,000-200,000/Day One question then would you support this if someone said this Tank in pve Healer in PvP Dps while soloing ? And i know that AC respecs is the worst thing ever . but basicly except the AC respecc that comment are very similar to what you are saying above where is the sacred line between those two? Think how you would answer that person and then think how that could be applied to youre post Edited January 10, 2012 by Varghjerta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffeerox Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 The developers actually said during one of the E3's that they made the roles this way (contain both damage/heals, or tank/damage) so that people can fill roles easier when grouping up. Well, the concept is currently a failure, or it is broken because we don't have dual spec and we have to travel to respec and pay 100's of thousands of credits at a time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valceanu Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Simple... PvE Healer PvP Anything but Healer Want to do my Daily Warfront Missions... Cr100,000-200,000/Day So the game doesnt really NEED dual speccing...its just that you WANT it. Sense of entitlement much?? Since my previous post which admittedly was long (reading comprehension among the internet crowd seems at an all time low) was more or less ignored ill try to brake this down into the main points of why people think dual speccs are neccesary: 1. Easier to get groups ... partly true but mostly a non-issue in this specific game. Thanks to the companion system there are plenty of tanks/healers around. 2. More character flexibility ... while true it is not needed to be successful at the game. Also it comes into direct conflict with the "choice should matter" mantra that the other side is advocating and the RP aspect of the game (yes its not just an MMO...its an mmoRPG) 3. PvP vs PvE spec ... another non-issue ... most specs are viable for both. And honestly the differences are negligible. Those who are dedicated PvPers can use that same spec for PvE and vice versa. (this is meant for PvE healer vs PvP healer and such...for the issue of wanting different roles see the point above) What else is there...hmm...well point them out and ill address them. I dont know why people find it so hard to understand that some of us want some realism in our game even though it is a sci-fi fantasy world...basic logic should not be circumvented. Ive given this example before, you cant "respec" from being a heart surgeon to being a brain surgeon on the fly. It takes years to re-specialize, go through residency again and so on even though they both belong to the surgery "advanced class" from the doctor "class". Any form of re-speccing should reflect these basic realities...at least the current one asks you to make a basic sacrifice of time + money to get it done. Also...to those saying "if you dont like it just dont use it, simple as that"...i call ********. It would affect even those that dont want to use it...heres a basic example: say we have player A (scoudrel DPS spec not using dual spec) and player B (scoundrel DPS spec with healing off-spec). Lets also assume that the players are of equal skill and have equivalent gear. Most raid leaders would invite B more often then not because of the extra spec simply because if/when the situation requires it that player could switch on the fly. Finally...in my personal opinion, they dumb down the game. Some might not agree but let me explain why i have this opinion. Content is designed with a general composition in mind. If you give players the opportunity to have 100% ideal group composition before each boss encounter they will take it regardless what the composition was when they started the raid...if this is true for each individual fight then each fight becomes easier since you have ideal group composition for each making the raid as a whole easier. Having a set composition (the one you entered the raid with) may give you better odds against some bosses but worse ones against others which means you have to adapt and evolve (another night you might have different composition and have to adjust again)...that is a good thing IMHO. Some people might argue that hard-core raiders would send their teammates out to re-spec anyways but to that the only thing i have to say is that...well...if they have to do that they are not really hard-core raiders in the first place. In the end...its not so much people NEEDING dual-spec as much as people WANTING it...well, some people at least. ...sorry...i started this not wanting it to turn into another wall of text but i think some things just need to be said...kudos to anyone patient enough to read through it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulchilde Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Simple... PvE Healer PvP Anything but Healer Want to do my Daily Warfront Missions... Cr100,000-200,000/Day Then pick a spec and stick with it... OR GO BACK TO WOW, RIFT or any other MMO. Keep SWTOR dofferent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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