Brisi Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) I don't think its about freedom of choice at all. What would a universal law have to do with that? Nature and the natural world is nothing about choices, its about survival. Nor do I think its necessarily about morality though I agree with people here who say that sometimes maybe even often times Light side choices align with moral choices as we understand them in our culture. Probably because even most moral structures have some built in practicality and surivival to them if they are going to be useful. I do think the whole life thing (though sanctity seems out of place as a term) is key. I also think its about this: The Light side of the force: is about not increasing the amount of despair, anger, chaos, hopelessness, apathy in the universe because certain emotional states seem to channel certain types of energy. Because it is within a balanced system that life flourishes sustainably. (and I think sustainably is the key here). Unbalanced energy, excessive out of control energy will materially effect the universe in ways visible and non. Systems that occur in nature will follow certain patterns when faced with excessive energy and they will usually spiral out of control, tend towards self-destruction or extreme mutation, degenerate and damage the environment etc sometimes horrifically until enough is bled off to rebalance itself. The Sith are about fostering these things (excessive misplaced energy) to fuel its particular energy quotient and then trying to walk the knife edge of containing and focusing the excessive power generated by it for their own ends hopefully before it spirals out of control in their own destruction. (which is another reason sith can be so insane and self destruction is such a prominent aspect fo their reality.) The reason the the Jedi eschew emotions is to prevent that knife edge issue and avoid having to even address systems that are out of control to begin with. Its not generally possible to be emotionless when surrounded by fellow humans/aliens thus the potential for energy creation is a constant danger, and the need for ways to bleed it off safely (meditation, isolation, strict behaviors when interacting, disallowing of attachments which COULD create good energy for life but is too dangerous to allow for the possibility of the bad creation of uncontrolled energy) Of course this is a sterile scientific way of looking at it and the game has to figure out the ways this becomes a real, bloody in your face crisis situation. Of course people are just human (or insert relevant alien nature here) and don't interface with life's choices and energy *usually* based on these concepts but I think that might be the supporting feature. So it might be a light side decision to allow a person to continue upon a seemingly ill conceived dangerous route in their life despite their loved ones concerns BECAUSE stopping that will cause that person additional unnecessary anger or despair or unhappiness and that ups the quotient on the dark energy side. The person who sent you out on the mission is ALREADY in that state so you aren't effectively changing their situation by your decision. You could argue, by bringing the person back you have one happy person and one unhappy person, just reversed, and so par for the course, but that wouldn't be true. Bringing back someone against their will will not restore the person's happiness that sent you out, it will most likely just create a resentful situation that will spiral further out of control increasing dark energy and their own system (relationship). Therefore the light option, which equals the option that causes the least despair, the highest increased chance of less entropic energy becomes one that may or may not coincide with your moral values by making the "rescued victim" happiest and not ultimately changing the emotional state of the person who hired you, or possibly even changing it for the better as they move on with their life. I think the Jedi interpretation of the force is possibly more flawed than the Sith's because of the confusion of emotions and energy and morality and good and evil. I think they have a MUCH harder time balancing being a compassionate person and following the strictures especially if they decide to be moral as well. But I think that is what makes for a good story. Jedi fail, struggle, strive, and sometimes overcome the issues involved in serving a balanced philosophical system and the ramifications that come with it. Edited January 10, 2012 by Brisi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthLightning Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I've noticed some of this as well.. and sometimes been noticing that making these choices are FORCING me into some sort of Liberal ideology... makes me Ponder about the Devs.. I can't remember what quest it was but one of them in specific was about Torturing.. you know the whole Jack Bauer scenario.. republic side to get information from a Separatist that would save 1,000's of lives..of course it would be Dark side if I tortured him. /rolls eyes. Light and Dark don't necessarily mean good and evil. Say you torture this guy(and its justified), next time you are in this situation, torturing becomes a little easier. Over time, you gradually become more accustomed to using torture to achieve your ends. Star Wars is very big on the "slippery slope" argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddballEasyEight Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I think the writers either don't care for the military or don't know anything about it or both. I'm a former marine, and I can't stand most of the dialogue options. Playing as an IA, I often got a "professional" reasonable option. As trooper the choices are between motard gung-ho, or childish arrogance, or apathy/greed. That and all the little things like calling a sergeant "sir" (a sergeant gets called "sergeant." imagine!), promoting a sergeant to a lieutenant (they're on totally different promotion paths. lieutenants are officers, sergeants get promoted to staff, technical, gunnery, or master sergeants--etc). The idea that a squad would have a captain or lieutenant or any officer in charge instead of a corporal or sergeant. I could go on... but I'll end my rant. umm... this isnt the US military... So a sergeant might very well be called "sir" in star wars.The ranks for the republic military does not correspond exactly to the rank structure of the US marines (witch differ slightly from the US army if i remember correctly) Also, the reason the military (and the dialogue options) are not acting like you expect them to might be because this is a long time warzone akin to vietnam. And we all know bad things happend in vietnam simply because of the moral erosion of soldiers in the field for too long and not getting the correct mental support (what im saying is the military forces on ord mantell have been demoralized and generally eroded when it comes to values) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClayPeopleCry Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) Except for the ls/ds point barrier which may prevent you from reaching max light/dark level. There is a barrier? Thats so stupid. I have diplomacy and a lot of the times the light side mission are the only ones that give actual stuff I can use for Biochem. So by picking them I may have screwed myself later on? Thats so *********** messed up! They should have made it like a seesaw effect. When you gain light points you lose dark points and when you gain dark you lose light. Till one side is maxed and the other is empty. Edited January 10, 2012 by ClayPeopleCry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terin Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Yeah, as far as I'm concerned, Light and Dark are purely dictated by "What would the Jedi Council do?", which as we all know, isn't always right. I'm in the same boat. For example, on Tython, I would take the blame for the student who asked for my help, and I lied so that the Padawan lovers weren't subjected to their Masters, but instead came to the conclusions themselves. As well, for the Governer of Coruscant, I chose the "Light-side" choice, and immediately regretted it. It somehow felt "wrong", to me, so much so that I had considered rerolling the character for that one choice. Honestly, I just wouldn't even pay attention to what's "Light" or "Dark". As others said, you can farm Flashpoints to make up for the Points, and I've even heard that one you max it out (Light VII, I think?), it wipes your Dark-side choices completely out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinemetu Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 umm... this isnt the US military... So a sergeant might very well be called "sir" in star wars. The ranks for the republic military does not correspond exactly to the rank structure of the US marines (witch differ slightly from the US army if i remember correctly) Also, the reason the military (and the dialogue options) are not acting like you expect them to might be because this is a long time warzone akin to vietnam. And we all know bad things happend in vietnam simply because of the moral erosion of soldiers in the field for too long and not getting the correct mental support (what im saying is the military forces on ord mantell have been demoralized and generally eroded when it comes to values) Sergeants aren't called "sir" in the army, either, and they don't get promoted to officer rank without going to a school--even if you get a battlefield commission there's still requirements. There's a basic difference between noncoms and officers, and in every army I've read or heard about in the present or in history, that distinction exists. In the US, it's a college degree that's required for a commission to be an officer. In the past, it was nobility or owning land--hence the "sir." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krijgsheer Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I always choose the right thing to do and with my current lvl 25 I have had to take 3 DS options, since they were just the right thing to do. Ah well, 150 dark side points is a small price to pay for doing the right thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaeOnasi Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Welcome to Real Life. Not everything that appears 'light' or 'dark' on the surface is actually 'light' or 'dark'. Hitler thought 'purifying the German race' was a light side thing to do. Killing 6 million Jews and millions of others in concentration camps to accomplish that obviously was a very dark side option in reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kauhu Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Light and Dark don't necessarily mean good and evil. Say you torture this guy(and its justified), next time you are in this situation, torturing becomes a little easier. Over time, you gradually become more accustomed to using torture to achieve your ends. Star Wars is very big on the "slippery slope" argument. I was just going to quote the same thing you quoted and reply, but I think you worded it better than I ever could Being Dark doesn't mean being (just) a raving murdering lunatic. It's also for example about taking the easy route to achieve a goal, no matter if it's against your belief. And it always becomes easier.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
necropsyalpha Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Been reading this thread alot you guys have it all wrong - originally in the movies the light side / dark side was a view of good and evil based on religious conception its not Morality Vs Immorality its more like (Faith)vs (Satanic) or self empowerment choices its the embodiment of putting your strength in a will to do good (light side) vs putting strength in yourself greed / self empowerment (darkside) so killing anyone you wish is pretty darkside lying and controlling people should be a dark side trait also tho lightside darkside was like a religious analogy according to george lucas originaly - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddballEasyEight Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Sergeants aren't called "sir" in the army, either, and they don't get promoted to officer rank without going to a school--even if you get a battlefield commission there's still requirements. There's a basic difference between noncoms and officers, and in every army I've read or heard about in the present or in history, that distinction exists. In the US, it's a college degree that's required for a commission to be an officer. In the past, it was nobility or owning land--hence the "sir." And this is a sci-fi military in space in a galaxy far far a way a long time ago invented by a former anthropology student and streetracer, so them saying "sir" to sergeants isnt grounded in anything other than the fact that this is all made up by him. ok sure, lucas didnt make up the dialogue in this game, but what im trying to tell you is that it doesnt matter who you do or dont call "sir" in real life since this is all made up. I am certain you dont call your military leaders "lord" or "master" either, but they do here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinemetu Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 ok sure, lucas didnt make up the dialogue in this game, but what im trying to tell you is that it doesnt matter who you do or dont call "sir" in real life since this is all made up. I am certain you dont call your military leaders "lord" or "master" either, but they do here... Nonsense. Words mean something. If you use a word that has a definition in real life, you don't get a pass on having it mean whatever you want just because it's a fictional world. Either use some imagination and come up with a different word or stick with what it actually means. Your last sentence is just a non-sequitor, and actually erodes your own case. I call my military leaders by their appropriate title. If we imagine that my superior's rank is "Darth" than that's what I would call them. If we imagine someone's rank is "Sergeant," then... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
somejerk Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Gotta love how killing Bouris Ulgo results in dark side points. Totally worth it though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mig-go Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) Sergeants aren't called "sir" in the army, either, and they don't get promoted to officer rank without going to a school--even if you get a battlefield commission there's still requirements. There's a basic difference between noncoms and officers, and in every army I've read or heard about in the present or in history, that distinction exists. In the US, it's a college degree that's required for a commission to be an officer. In the past, it was nobility or owning land--hence the "sir." There are armies even nowdays that use "sir" (or equivalent in their own language) even for rank equivalent of corporal in US army. Being officer is not requirement of called "sir" (or their equivalent). In general, it is used when you talk to your superior. So using it in game, that is fantasy, is not that far fetched. Edited January 11, 2012 by Mig-go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selek Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 For some of the choices I justify the Dark Side choice by simply assuming the person is lying. For instance that researcher for cybernetic implants on Dromund Kaas: He tells you when you want to copy (and then delete the research with a data spike) that he means to help the victims of war. There is no real proof that this is true, after all this guy works for Lord Grathan, a known war criminal, and the scientist probably got his research results by experimenting on prisoners and slaves. Unlike in Witcher 2, where people actually often lie to you and a choice which seems good turns out to shooting you in the foot after all, people in Bioware games are often very honest. I can understand the reason for this, after all it might depress the casual audience, but it makes your character seem really naive at times. Sometimes you get three choices, which range from naive and good to sceptical but accepting to sociopathic. Seeing how Bioware's dialogue wheel should allow for six options but TOR only seems to use 3, sometimes 2, character development and choices seem a tad limited. Thus I don't really feel too bad if I kill a guy who was probably lying about being innocent of a horrendous crime or other. Doing some minor detective work on the choices in the game can be fun at times, as long as you can morally justify it. Unless your character is a sociopath or naive goody two-shoes, then the game has pretty easy choices for you. tl;dr: If you want intelligent, well-thought out choices, you're better off playing Deus Ex and Witcher 2 (Disclaimer: I love playing TOR, its simple choices can be relaxing compared to the former, more depressing games) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddballEasyEight Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) Nonsense. Words mean something. If you use a word that has a definition in real life, you don't get a pass on having it mean whatever you want just because it's a fictional world. Either use some imagination and come up with a different word or stick with what it actually means. Your last sentence is just a non-sequitor, and actually erodes your own case. I call my military leaders by their appropriate title. If we imagine that my superior's rank is "Darth" than that's what I would call them. If we imagine someone's rank is "Sergeant," then... Right, ill just run along and tell Lucas Arts and Bioware that they cant use "sir" on sergeants because thats not how its done in real life. Ill also add that they cant call their lightsabers lightsabers since they are not actually made up of solid light and a saber isnt a straight weapon, and furthermore they cant make non-sith use the "lord" title to a sith who has not yet reached the rank of "sith lord" since he isnt actually a lord yet. Look, the use of a word in a made up universe is limited only by the author of said universe, not how it is used in the real world, or how you percieve it should be used. Edited January 11, 2012 by OddballEasyEight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weezyfb Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I think you are metagaming bro. Forcing her is darkside or forcing anyone really Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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