Knifewrench Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) It boggles me how people are still on this. If you don't want to face against people that climbed the mountain higher than you (that you can easily catch up on), then why don't you just ask for everybody to be capped at level 10, too? Oh, right. RNG. Suggest to fix that, then. Edited January 12, 2012 by Knifewrench Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllanGand Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 I always thought that the only thing they needed to do differently was change the set bonuses to pvp bonuses for pvp gear and just do away with the dumb stat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uben Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 It boggles me how people are still on this. If you don't want to face against people that climbed the mountain higher than you (that you can easily catch up on), then why don't you just ask for everybody to be capped at level 10, too? Oh, right. RNG. Suggest to fix that, then. I think you need to read the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uben Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) I always thought that the only thing they needed to do differently was change the set bonuses to pvp bonuses for pvp gear and just do away with the dumb stat. What would be PvP bonuses though? The gear works as is for both types of players. We all stack the same stats be it pvp OR pve. The only thing different is the expertise quotient. At lvl 50 with full expertise you will cancel out another lvl 50 with full expertise. At that point ALL that matters is the stats that are on the gear beyond expertise. The same stats all pve gear already has. Edited January 12, 2012 by Uben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evilbrood Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 What would be PvP bonuses though? The gear works as is for both types of players. We all stack the same stats be it pvp OR pve. The only thing different is the expertise quotient. At lvl 50 with full expertise you will cancel out another lvl 50 with full expertise. At that point ALL that matters is the stats that are on the gear beyond expertise. The same stats all pve gear already has. They just don't want to grind the gear for pvp. Yes the system atm for getting gear is flawed in so many ways but BW already posted about how they are fixing it. Plus 10% increase will only affect people that are actually good at pvp. I can't tell you how many times I have went against people in full champion that are keyboard turning clickers that can't keep up with me. Player A has 500 expertise and player B has 500 expertise. When they attack each other expertise is eliminated from the fight. Expertise is there to make sure PVE'ers are not forced to pvp to be competitive in pve. It also there to make sure that PVP'ers are not forced to pve to be competitive in pvp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phrostii Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Player A has 500 expertise and player B has 500 expertise. When they attack each other expertise is eliminated from the fight. Expertise is there to make sure PVE'ers are not forced to pvp to be competitive in pve. It also there to make sure that PVP'ers are not forced to pve to be competitive in pvp. This... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phrostii Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 It's honestly unimaginable to even begin to hope to understand what anyone was thinking when they thought putting Expertise into the game would be a good idea. It's honestly unimaginable to even begin to hope to understand how you DON'T see why they put Expertise into the game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuology Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Player A has 500 expertise and player B has 500 expertise. When they attack each other expertise is eliminated from the fight. Expertise is there to make sure PVE'ers are not forced to pvp to be competitive in pve. It also there to make sure that PVP'ers are not forced to pve to be competitive in pvp. While this works in theory and is a good start - previous implmentation has shown it to have one glaring and self-destructive flaw. It creates a gear gap between haves and have nots based simply on time. In other words over time, as players come and go from the game, you can potentially have one side completely geared in expertise gear and the other, in none. Even if the team without expertise gear is better skilled, chance are they will still loose simply because the gear compensates for alot of poor play. This means they need to gain the gear to be competitive which turns getting it into an uphill grind since you get less "points" for loosing than winning. This turns off many players and can often lead to the death of PvP (and is usually followed by the calls for cross server pvp which is really only a delay to the inevitable). Since almost all PvP'ers want pvp that is based predominantly on skill (rather than gear) and they would like to see more people involved in it, you can understand why over the long term the stat itself has to be removed. This is not to say we don't want to split PvP and PvE rewards just that Expertise has proven to not work in reaching this goal. There have been many other methods that have worked in other platforms that can be adopted here. Such things as having a PvP skill tree unlocked at 50 where you earn a point per 10 or so valor levels would work if you kept the skills in the tree to things like reducing the cooldown on escape/interupts or extending range of class abilities etc (ie improvements to the charecter but thigns that provide utility rather than dmg/dmg reduction). Then you make this tree auto disable inside flashpoints and operations (hell you could make a PvE tree along the same lines too but I suspected this would be more legacy than anything else). Others have stated putting expertise onto PvE gear and having it as a performance enhancing PvE stat would be fine (though personally with bolstering in place, why limit rewards to gear which in the end is kind of boring). There are alot of methods that work better than expertise - its a shame that Bioware rushed this game so much that took shortcuts by using quick fixes developed 5-10 years ago (not just pvp but all aspect of the game). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NinjaScroll Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 A level 50 PvP bracket simply will not save the PvP in this game. There is no logical explanation for having a PvP stat in this MMO game, or in fact any MMO game. The only possible reason for Expertise to exist in this game is to screw over people who cant grind it first. Even if you did have a 50's only bracket, you'd be creating more problems than you're fixing. Aside from all the obvious queue time issues, the 50's bracket will suffer from the exact same problems we have now; the bracket will divided up into New 50's and Old 50's, ie. people who dont have their 10% Expertise bonus yet, and those that do. But you might say, "Everyone will become an Old 50 eventually." and yes, they might. But then what would be the point in everyone having the same 10% Expertise bonus, when all it's going to do is cancel out everyone elses 10% Expertise bonus. The only outside issue there is that healing will still be 10% stronger, but if you wanted that why wouldn't you just lower the Trauma debuff by 10%? It's honestly unimaginable to even begin to hope to understand what anyone was thinking when they thought putting Expertise into the game would be a good idea. Removing the stat doesn't mean PvP Gear has to go, the point of PvP Gear/Experience/Credits in the first place is so that people who want an alternative to PvE can still progress. There all kinds of stats in this game that mean you could make all kinds of PvP Gear Sets, whether they are Purple or Mods, so people can look however they want to, or however you want them to look, and they can mix and match all these different pieces of gear to whatever their hearts desire. To give you an idea of the combinations of gear that could be possible: - Primary Stat - Endurance Crit RatingSurgeAlacrityPower Now reverse the Primary Stat and Endurance, so that Endurance is the bigger of the two and look how much choice you have... something for everyone, even. Now when you're 50 and you arent bolstered anymore, you can decide which stat you want more of, in return for lower stats on other stuff, or you can even decide to have an equal balance. A crazy thing, having a choice, isn't it? Like choosing to have Fun over Frustration. Or choosing to resubscribe... or perhaps not. I'm not even mad. It's sad but true, it needs to go. /signed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NessusFett Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 I dont understand what the huge fuss is... I was getting MVP votes in the 30's with not even maxed gear then...topping damage and kills 10% doesn't seem nearly enough to make up for a skill difference. the real issue is reusable stims and medkits IMO I've wailed on level 50 battle masters and caught them off guard enough to go through their health bar before they even notice and then have them refill their whole bar. If 10% is enough to totally devastate you every time... i dont think the issue is the expertise. but obviously it is a deal when one whole team has +10 percent everything...then your damage is doing 10% less and their attacks 10% more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djvapid Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 The bonus is 20%, actually. 20% damage bonus while your target does 20% less damage to you (providing you with a 40% advantage altogether). Whether I'm mistaken with those numbers or not is irrelevent though. The stat is the biggest mistake in the existance of MMOs. Hell, once 50s are all bracketed off and /everyone/ in that bracket has expertise, it cancels itself out and everyone is fighting on an equal playing field. Ipso facto, it's useless unless you can "pwn lowbies". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xanix Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 take it from the pvp sets , put it on the pve sets and make it give the bonus against npc's . this way pvp is based on skill not on equipment and pve sets have a edge over pvp sets for pve , and they are equal ( pvp sets and pve sets ) when it comes to pvp . simple easy solution and much appreciated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapuchinSeven Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Wawawa WAIT!! WHAT!? The whole point of This pvp stat is Too seperate the people who pvp alot from those who do it a little... Its the SAME reason there is RAID gear... Er except that they are all mixed up into the same pile and expected to play with each other. It's still cracking me up every time I read a post here stating that grinding in PVP some how makes you good at it. Said it before and I'll say it again, if you were good at it you'd be happy with PVE and PVP sets having the same stats where you'd win because of more skill and better team work. CRACKS me up to hear "PVPers" defending a crutch. I'm PVP geared and I don't need my crutch, gimme equal gear and keep the influx of new players rolling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sky_walkerPL Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 It's sad but true, it needs to go. /signed /signed as well. And if you are afraid of getting pawned without your precious "expertise" than obviously you have playstyle problem. As long as top PvE gear == top PvP gear than the whole expertize thing shouldn't exist. It only works on disadvantage of new PvP players. There's also one more issue with expertise: It's available only for lvl 50 players. AS IF sub-50s WOULDN'T ALREADY BE IN HUGE DISADVANTAGE. ~Valor 45 lvl 50 player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astiria Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 I didn't get my butt whipped for a week straight to have my expertise taken away from me! You become num to losing when trying to grind for your battlemaster gear. You just need to suck it up... Now this sound like fun ... Anyway, the point of PVP is to compete vs other players is it not? So its based on better teamplay, better skill, better tactics, sometimes maybe even more luck but gear? Because with the current setup, better gear doesnt equate to more skill, as some stated its just a matter of time, but a 10% stat will give you an advantage over another player with same pvp skills. Now is this about the challenge of player vs player or a reward discussion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapuchinSeven Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Equal gear and using tactics and skill to win PVP matches? MADNESS MADNESS I SAY! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NessusFett Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Equal gear and using tactics and skill to win PVP matches? MADNESS MADNESS I SAY! for serious how awesome would that be to take it a step further than buffing everyone to "level 50" stats to just have set "pvp" stats sets for each class balanced. then you could make pvp gear for visual distinctions and out of pvp buffs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sookster Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) I much rather pvp gear have higher stats than expertise, a reason to get the gear just to have a higher health pool, more willpower or strength or aim or such along with extra accuracy, alacrity or defense rating than regular level 50 gear. Still an advantage but not so significant that expertise does at the moment (20% is a huge difference). Edited January 12, 2012 by Sookster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rollento Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) Expertise is ok for a pvp stat, but im not sure about the bonus damage to players thats a bit too much. Expterise is needed because lets face it if PvP didn't grant anything to players doing it, no one would. Illum faced the same problem in this game. The truth is if anything, PvP gear should have not came out when the game launched. They should have delayed it by 2-3 weeks to compensate for new players etc. Yes, pvp may have suffered in the beginning, but we wouldn't have 100s of threads of people complaining about nerfing expertise etc. TLDR: Expertise is fine, PvP gear should have been delayed. Edited January 12, 2012 by Rollento Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cutnail Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 If you get rid of it... then you might run into the issue of pvp gear being equal or better than pve gear or maybe more easy to obtain. I hope BioWare can see this through? I am losing faith in their ability to seek out all possible senarios and testing properly before going live with stuff. The stat is way too powerful. I would be up for removing it or just lowering its effectiveness. Hey at least we have a good slick AH right? oh nevermind that comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDutch Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) Just add a separate unranked WZ queue where everyone's stats are normalized.. bolstered, capped, no expertise bonuses applied. Also, no rewards that could lead you to buy expertise gear in this unranked queue. Then people that want to PvP for gear can, and people that want to PvP for PvP can. Edited January 12, 2012 by BDutch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzut Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Instead of dividing the warzones into 1-49 and 50, just get rid of expertise. There's no reasonable argument for including it in the first place, whereas there are good reasons why you would want a one tier warzone (faster queue times). That or allow us to mod our <50 gear to have expertise. The entire 49 to 50 jump is way too great a divide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khoraji Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Equal gear and using tactics and skill to win PVP matches? MADNESS MADNESS I SAY! I dont know if you know this or not... but this is an mmoRPG, your character is skilled, not you. Tactics play a part. And the gear is available for everyone. It isn't their fault they worked to get it and others didnt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khoraji Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Instead of dividing the warzones into 1-49 and 50, just get rid of expertise. There's no reasonable argument for including it in the first place, whereas there are good reasons why you would want a one tier warzone (faster queue times). That or allow us to mod our <50 gear to have expertise. The entire 49 to 50 jump is way too great a divide. Umm, there are alot of reasonable arguments. How about some PvE'er with epic raid gear that has never PvP'd coming in and owning everyone because his gear is better. Expertise is the best way to seperate PvPers and PvEers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TehMerc Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Umm, there are alot of reasonable arguments. How about some PvE'er with epic raid gear that has never PvP'd coming in and owning everyone because his gear is better. Expertise is the best way to seperate PvPers and PvEers Reverse it, make expertise something that increases damage done to NPCS and healing/mitigation in a flashpoint/operation and you've effectively killed any reason anyone might complain about pvp gear screwing over new 50s. But I doubt you'd enjoy pvp as much heh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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